Western countries are becoming more orwellian

[breadisfunny]

Yes there are laws in place to ensure that taxes are paid correctly and that people do not cheat and are not cheated in return. In practice they're far from perfect.



Remind me of the news reports of people being murdered by the government for refusing to pay taxes.

The government has the legal right to enforce taxes to ensure that public works can be funded and maintained. By maintaining your citizenship, you're consenting to pay those taxes and benefit from the public works those taxes pay for, the safety provided by the military, and the healthcare/education offered, among other things.



I'm surprised since you believe that people are jailed for having a "bad opinion" that you're not in jail already. Why haven't they taken you away if your opinion is so terrible?

judging from his posts i think he thinks it's only a matter of time before they find him and silence him forever.

[Endus]

Who knew this whole time you were talking about 1/50th of the US.

Harassment is a state-level law, not federal. Did you expect me to quote the law codes of all 50 States?

I asked you for an example of a conviction, not a small part of a single states law that could theoretically get someone in trouble without physical threat. Also I like how you didn't post the whole text section which showed a pattern of requiring physicality.

I didn't post that section because that law requires that ONE of those three categories be true, not ALL three.

The pattern with physicality ALSO qualifies, but it's by no means required.

As for asking for a conviction; these kinds of crimes aren't the kind of thing that make the press, so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect me to dig through inaccessible court records to dig one out. I presented you with actual law, that's pretty clear-cut.

[JusticeJacko]

Yes there are laws in place to ensure that taxes are paid correctly and that people do not cheat and are not cheated in return. In practice they're far from perfect.

You appear to be avoiding the question sir. Would you accept the slavery imposed upon you by the democratic will of the villagers? Yes or no.

Remind me of the news reports of people being murdered by the government for refusing to pay taxes.

Plenty are in jail for tax evasion, they just are not dumb enough to try to shoot the police when they come to get them. I'm not dumb enough to try to evade tax. Shopkeepers in New York were not dumb enough to say no to the Mafia either. Tell me honestly, what do you believe would happen if someone told the government to piss off and used weaponry to fight off the police? Don't avoid this question like the last one please.

The government has the legal right to enforce taxes to ensure that public works can be funded and maintained. By maintaining your citizenship, you're consenting to pay those taxes and benefit from the public works those taxes pay for, the safety provided by the military, and the healthcare/education offered, among other things.

Ah this consent crap again. And I can only not consent by leaving the country of my birth, my family, everything I have, and go where? True there's no tax in Saudi Arabia, but I'm pretty sure speaking my mind there will get me killed so that's a no go.

It would be really nice if you statists at least admitted that tax is probably a necessary evil, that would at least be a bit more honest than the nonsense you are coming out with about consent. Just a thought - is that what they tell you in schools is the reason for tax? Taxpayer funded schools by any chance?

I'm surprised since you believe that people are jailed for having a "bad opinion" that you're not in jail already. Why haven't they taken you away if your opinion is so terrible?

Because they haven't got there yet, but plenty of nations do that.

[Darsithis]

Hmm, so remind me what happens if I stop paying the taxes? Will the government shrug their shoulders and say "oh well"? No, they will send armed men to my house to arrest me. If I resist and barricade my door they will knock it down. If I raise a weapon against them to protect what is mine they will go so far as to shoot and kill me.

They will garnish your wages, if possible. If the amount of tax due is too large or garnishment doesn't work, yes, they can and most likely will arrest you. However, if you pull out a gun and threaten the officers and they shoot you, it isn't because you didn't pay your taxes, it's because you threatened to shoot armed police officers.

[breadisfunny]

justice how about you present an alternative to living a society with taxation to have any measure of a comfortable life or even something resembling civilization?
what would you suggest we do instead of taxing people? because if you hate taxes so much i don't see you coming up with any alternatives.
also if i'm not mistaken the reason saudi arabia has no tax is because the oil revenues pay for pretty much everything they need no?
i'd imagine sitting on the world's largest oil reserves will do that when everyone uses oil.

[Endus]

Plenty are in jail for tax evasion, they just are not dumb enough to try to shoot the police when they come to get them. I'm not dumb enough to try to evade tax. Shopkeepers in New York were not dumb enough to say no to the Mafia either. Tell me honestly, what do you believe would happen if someone told the government to piss off and used weaponry to fight off the police? Don't avoid this question like the last one please.

Given that you've moved your goalposts from "not paying your taxes" to "trying to murder innocent police officers", it should be clear that nobody is "avoiding" anything, but you.

[Darsithis]

You appear to be avoiding the question sir. Would you accept the slavery imposed upon you by the democratic will of the villagers? Yes or no.

Slavery? I don't consider it slavery, so yes, I would accept what was enforced.

I don't think you and I can ever agree. I spent half of my childhood in state care. I appreciate the value of taxes and social services and am very socialist-minded. We're on two sides that can't meet.

[PC2]

Harassment is a state-level law, not federal. Did you expect me to quote the law codes of all 50 States?

I didn't post that section because that law requires that ONE of those three categories be true, not ALL three.

The pattern with physicality ALSO qualifies, but it's by no means required.

As for asking for a conviction; these kinds of crimes aren't the kind of thing that make the press, so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect me to dig through inaccessible court records to dig one out. I presented you with actual law, that's pretty clear-cut.

If you cant even find a conviction you have not proven that it is an occurrence that happens. Even then you would need to find it for the majority of states or an important precedence at the federal level to make a general statement.

If anything your meager findings are proving free speech is strong in the US.

[Darsithis]

Plenty are in jail for tax evasion, they just are not dumb enough to try to shoot the police when they come to get them. I'm not dumb enough to try to evade tax. Shopkeepers in New York were not dumb enough to say no to the Mafia either. Tell me honestly, what do you believe would happen if someone told the government to piss off and used weaponry to fight off the police? Don't avoid this question like the last one please.

Waco. Ammon Bundy.

[breadisfunny]

Waco. Ammon Bundy.

i thought waco was because the tfa was there to arrest for illegal firearms possession charges and someone warned them the tfa were coming.

[Darsithis]

i thought waco was because the tfa was there to arrest for illegal firearms possession charges and someone warned them the tfa were coming.

The cause isn't as important as the fact that they did exactly as JusticeJacko is saying: they stockpiled weapons and told the government to fuck off. Look where it got them.

[Aggrophobic]

Ooh gosh yes, throwing IDEAS into people's faces! What a horrible thing to do!?

Seriously, listen to yourself and consider the fact that if everyone said nice things then there would be no need for freedom of speech laws. They exist so that we can question assumptions with our horrible ideas and that maybe, just maybe, it will lead to a better world. Being offended is the price for this.

And it's a price worth paying or you stagnate like Islam did and go from being the most technologically advanced culture on Earth to being right down the bottom.

If thoes ideas are that you should hurt others or if it's just harassing people for the sake of hurting them then yes, thoes ideas should lead to you being removed from society if you try to force them on others. There is nothing orwellian about that.

Thats what we have the police for.

[JusticeJacko]

No. They won't. They'll garnish your wages or the like.

As I mentioned to someone else, I self-assess and a portion of my taxes is entirely under my control as to whether I pay or not (I do - I'm not stupid).

And regardless, they're sending peace officers to your house to arrest you. They're armed, as they are while on duty. But that won't matter, unless you become violent yourself.

Peace officers eh?

Police officers would be sent to my home to arrest me yes, but it won't matter unless I become violent myself? Erm, it will matter to me won't it? I'll either be thrown in jail or have to let them take the wealth I have worked for and they haven't.

You know, if robbers come to your house, or you get mugged at gunpoint, it won't be a problem unless you get violent yourself. So you just bend over and give them what they want like a good boy.

You clearly have a great deal of hatred and hostility towards that nation, given how you're refusing to agree to the baseline duties of citizenship in that nation.

On the contrary I love Britain to bits, especially England. I hate people who threaten me with violence unless I hand over my cash - don't you?

Of course, a lot of the people in government really do think they are doing the right thing, and when it comes to practicality taxation does get the job done for various services like the Army & Navy, roads etc - but it's still theft. It would be wonderful of you to at least realise the truth of the matter. You were never asked for consent at any point, and if you refused they wouldn't care - accept this basic truth sir.

Yes; if you can no longer continue granting your consent to your duties of citizenship, you're bound to leave. That's your choice. Those duties haven't changed any time recently, and you had 18 years to learn them and be aware of them before reaching your majority, so you can't claim ignorance of basic civics.

Gosh I love how you think I can just move away and be free from it all, especially at just turning 18 - where is this Xanadu sir?

- - - Updated - - -

Given that you've moved your goalposts from "not paying your taxes" to "trying to murder innocent police officers", it should be clear that nobody is "avoiding" anything, but you.

Ok you are clearly having problems with basic logic.

People coming to my house to confiscate the wealth I have made with my own labour are not "innocent police officers" - they are thieves in the full knowledge of their crime. The fact most of the country approves of this behaviour does not make it any less of a crime.

I think you're a little rattled sir, it's good that we have the freedom of speech to be exposed to different ideas isn't it? Perhaps you might even change your mind one day?

- - - Updated - - -

Slavery? I don't consider it slavery, so yes, I would accept what was enforced.

I don't think you and I can ever agree. I spent half of my childhood in state care. I appreciate the value of taxes and social services and am very socialist-minded. We're on two sides that can't meet.

Amazing. You are Boxer.

[May90]

Except freedom of speech is working well.

Also, correlation does not equal causation. You have presented a very simplistic view of crime.

Considering freedom of speech isolated from other crimes is what I would call simplistic. These things are intertwined: the more hate speech is allowed, the more hate crimes are going to happen.

free speech must be protected. you can't allow people to remove it in the name of free speech, that's a paradox. it should be one part of the constitution with supreme authority and inability to ever change.

you should be able to talk shit on free speech all you want, say all manner of nasty horrible things. but NEVER be able to actually remove it.

You don't get to defend free speech by punishing people for using free speech the wrong way. Otherwise, it is not free speech you are defending, but merely the right for the speech you find appropriate.

Says it all in a nutshell.

Looking at the world nowadays, we can say that the guy was pretty wrong.

the Germans who expressed negative opinions about immigration.

Lol, things people here believe...

[JusticeJacko]

justice how about you present an alternative to living a society with taxation to have any measure of a comfortable life or even something resembling civilization?
what would you suggest we do instead of taxing people? because if you hate taxes so much i don't see you coming up with any alternatives.
also if i'm not mistaken the reason saudi arabia has no tax is because the oil revenues pay for pretty much everything they need no?
i'd imagine sitting on the world's largest oil reserves will do that when everyone uses oil.

May I point you towards the great Ron Paul Revolution:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revolution-...aul+revolution

When I read this the first time I was as cynical as you are that a no tax state would work, but slowly I have changed my mind after listening to the arguments. It does take a long time to change opinions. Which is of course why the leftists love to infiltrate schools so much, get them young.

Also Tom Woods was instrumental in me getting my head around some of the more difficult aspects of it all. He has a YouTube channel (can be hard going at times) but he explains things a lot better than me:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsg...AiFarZYl1u1l9Q


And a final thought - 200 years ago a lot of people had no idea how the world would work without slavery. Were they right?

[PC2]

@Endus

One additional note, the example you gave earlier also would not be criminal harassment under the New York violation you cited. Article 10 of the New York Penal Code says that only misdemeanors and felonies are crimes. Violations are not a crime.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-la...ect-10-00.html
http://www.newyorkcriminallawyer-blo...fense-law.html

[Damajin]

Considering freedom of speech isolated from other crimes is what I would call simplistic. These things are intertwined: the more hate speech is allowed, the more hate crimes are going to happen.


You don't get to defend free speech by punishing people for using free speech the wrong way. Otherwise, it is not free speech you are defending, but merely the right for the speech you find appropriate.


Looking at the world nowadays, we can say that the guy was pretty wrong.


Lol, things people here believe...

Since we're pretty much guaranteed not to agree on anything at this point, just going to let this one go. I'd personally say that you're the type of person he's referring to specifically, perhaps barring the pharmaceuticals angle because unless the NSA I haven't bothered to learn everything about you.

[May90]

Since we're pretty much guaranteed not to agree on anything at this point, just going to let this one go. I'd personally say that you're the type of person he's referring to specifically, perhaps barring the pharmaceuticals angle because unless the NSA I haven't bothered to learn everything about you.

No, unlike you, I've lived in actual totalitarian countries with lack of freedom. You grew up in the US and complain about total surveillance and such. How often is that surveillance used against you? How many times have the authorities restricted your freedom?

Go live here for a bit:
https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...d/2015/belarus
And here:
https://freedomhouse.org/report/free...015/uzbekistan

"Total surveillance" will be your last concern, buddy. While you are complaining about NSA watching you masturbate in front of your monitor, there are people having actual life-threatening problems, because they said a few words that offended the Big Brother. Nobody restricts your freedom in the US; in fact, I would argue that there is a bit too much freedom, leading to insanity like the Internet costing $90/m, or Trump running for president.

[Deleted]

Well my government recommended today to buy food and water for ~10 days. In case war breaks out or something like that. So I stocked up my instant noodles.

[derpkitteh]

You don't get to defend free speech by punishing people for using free speech the wrong way. Otherwise, it is not free speech you are defending, but merely the right for the speech you find appropriate.

that's the type of speech you people want. that's what it comes down to, being allowed to say more vs. being allowed to say less.

my vision of freedom of speech is correct and morally right, yours is wrong and a path to fascism. because mine allows more freedom, and yours allows less.