Is Brewmaster damage low? and how is their self healing?

[derpx]

One thing I've noticed while watching slootbag's monks vods (if you have someone else to watch please comment) in mythic +. Two things that makes me really hate how are bremasters now. First they seem to have 0 healing(controllable healing) aside from the artifact of 35% spawn an orb. Second, their damage is on the low end, yes they have burst damage but that's just the artifact and they fall far behind after even the druid healer outdamaged the tank. Although for raids, you rarely care about tank damage, I think in high mythic 11+ you really need it. So, my question is, is it true what I have said or am I wrong (please say i'm wrong, and there's something I didn't catch )

[Deleted]

Brewmasters self healing is pretty good and you can control if by knowing when damage is coming.

Celestial fortune is a brewmaster talent that does a second heal for 65% of the original based on critical strike from all sources of healing. So this when in a raid environment is quite a lot, and it scales very well.

Another heal is from Healing Elixer which you can chose when to use but also has an auto proc at -35% health for 15% of max health, so this can be used to top up if you need to be at 100% health or automatic from a potential fatal hit.

Healing orbs have increased proc rate at lower health and you can control that if you know when the damage is coming, this will only get better with the greater orbs from artifact.

Additionally eye of the tiger can be used as passive healing and chi burst for more on demand healing or burst healing for aoe damage for the group.

It's pretty good.

Can't comment on damage, don't see sims.

[stross01]

I don't know about other brewmasters, but my damage is very high. Single target, two-target, aoe. It gets better with the artifact.

'Controllable healing' is kind of subjective. I've not had a problem surviving in raids or mythic+.

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Brewmasters self healing is pretty good and you can control if by knowing when damage is coming.

Celestial fortune is a brewmaster talent that does a second heal for 65% of the original based on critical strike from all sources of healing. So this when in a raid environment is quite a lot, and it scales very well.

Another heal is from Healing Elixer which you can chose when to use but also has an auto proc at -35% health for 15% of max health, so this can be used to top up if you need to be at 100% health or automatic from a potential fatal hit.

Healing orbs have increased proc rate at lower health and you can control that if you know when the damage is coming, this will only get better with the greater orbs from artifact.

Additionally eye of the tiger can be used as passive healing and chi burst for more on demand healing or burst healing for aoe damage for the group.

It's pretty good.

Can't comment on damage, don't see sims.

This part is not true and hasn't been since early beta.

[Raugnaut]

Damage - BrM damage is one of the few things they have going for them.

Healing - Unlike in WoD where a Brewmaster needed little-no healing, and could spam Expel Harm on themselves below 35% health, and had extremely powerful Guard as well as numerous healing orbs, its quite a bit different now. BrM only have access to 3 forms of healing - lvl 15 talent (Small heal), Healing Elixer (15% health on a 30 second CD, 2 chargers), and GotO orbs (Which heal for ~40% health each, but will only form whenever you take 100% of your health in damage pre-stagger, so you can't rely on it to keep yourself alive, only to mitigate damage spikes)

So, its not on par with DK, Druid, and DH healing, but its above Paladin, and ~par with Warriors.

[Deleted]

I don't know about other brewmasters, but my damage is very high. Single target, two-target, aoe. It gets better with the artifact.

'Controllable healing' is kind of subjective. I've not had a problem surviving in raids or mythic+.

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This part is not true and hasn't been since early beta.

Gift of the mist says hello.

Has it's place in raids and is very useful in mythic+ dungeons.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=196719/...mists#comments

TalentedOrbChance = BaseOrbChance * (1 + 0.6 * (1 - (HealthBeforeDamage - DamageTakenBeforeAbosorbsOrStagger) / MaxHealth))

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did some digging, found some logs from beta, dated 10/8 (warcraft log upload date for reference).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4X1nSE8jV4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ZWYBwp#fight=3

Logs came from this guy

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hagen/advanced
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/sylvanas/Rebels

Guild ranks fairly well, fair to assume the paladin tank was playing well also. but beta is beta, don't think monks are in the low area of tank damage.

Additionally, his damage taken was on the high side by his own choice. He only purified 6 times in a 6 minute fight.

[stross01]

Gift of the mist says hello.

Has it's place in raids and is very useful in mythic+ dungeons.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=196719/...mists#comments

TalentedOrbChance = BaseOrbChance * (1 + 0.6 * (1 - (HealthBeforeDamage - DamageTakenBeforeAbosorbsOrStagger) / MaxHealth))

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did some digging, found some logs from beta, dated 11/8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4X1nSE8jV4
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ZWYBwp#fight=3

Logs came from this guy

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hagen/advanced
http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/sylvanas/Rebels

Guild ranks fairly well, fair to assume the paladin tank was playing well also. but beta is beta, don't think monks are in the low area of tank damage.

I wouldn't use Gift of the Mists ever. Ever. Pretty awful talent. And if you don't have it, that 'lower hp better thing' isn't true unless you're a genuine master of Obstinate Determination, which most people won't be.

I'm not certain why you posted the logs, though. If they were directed at OP, it's easy to explain why the monk's damage was so high compared to everyone else: everyone else was awful.

If they're direct at me, he's using Black Ox Brew, not Gift of the Mists.

[Teekey]

Consensus around the internet seems to be that BrM damage is low in Legion. I didn't play beta so I can't comment personally.

Also, our self healing is undoubtedly the worst it's ever been. I don't think that's even disputable. I don't think Gift of the Mists is worth taking with how Gift of the Ox works now.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't use Gift of the Mists ever. Ever. Pretty awful talent. And if you don't have it, that 'lower hp better thing' isn't true unless you're a genuine master of Obstinate Determination, which most people won't be.

I'm not certain why you posted the logs, though. If they were directed at OP, it's easy to explain why the monk's damage was so high compared to everyone else: everyone else was awful.

If they're direct at me, he's using Black Ox Brew, not Gift of the Mists.

I'm well aware of how he was playing, it's a reference to the power of monks and how good they are. He could've played more defense and produced even greater results. and the gift isn't bad if you're taking multiple hits. In lower end mythic+ and normal trash / heroic trash etc it would probably be an effective talent and could be used since there is no real reason to bother with try harding with brews etc since the content is a joke and you could probably afk it as example from the brewmaster in my links did by not even bothering to dispel his staggers.

check where his healing is coming from and it shows as a reference to what I mean, he just did damage and ran over his orbs, keeping ironbrew up. (the fight was normal mode)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=10



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1569676755

If interested you can calculate how effective the talent will be. Shines in prolonged multi targets fights, where hits arnt doing large portions of health bars, more so when the artifact traits greater orb comes into play and the obstinate determination talent comes into play. That doesn't mean its bad, it has it's place. In higher mythic+10 and mythic raids it wouldn't be used, which I guess is what you play judging by your post history. But the OP didn't specify what difficulty he plays in, simple asked about dungeons and raids and I answered him with as much openness to play style as I could forgive me for not believing that OP is a super hardcore player who is try harding WoW, but I'm sure the answer would've sufficed for the kind of player I believe him to be.

Also I like how you copied and pasted "Obstinate Determination", where did you did you copy it from? the capital letters gives it away. Is your display picture from Hunter x Hunter or Ushio and Tora, recognise the image. Sick animes.

[Deleted]

So you showed that even tanks can be competitive damage in a guild that takes over 5 months to clear HFC with 5 raids a week, and that tank mechanics really don't matter at all when you're doing 6.x content in 7.0.

How does this make Gift of Mists not a bad talent, or make BrM anything but the worst ST DPS and among the worst AoE DPS tanks?

[nocendi]

Consensus around the internet seems to be that BrM damage is low in Legion. I didn't play beta so I can't comment personally.

Also, our self healing is undoubtedly the worst it's ever been. I don't think that's even disputable. I don't think Gift of the Mists is worth taking with how Gift of the Ox works now.

Damage is low: survivability is lower.

[Jaigar]

When Im spamming the crap out of brews (like on archie), my top damage source is special delivery keg. Its a bit frustrating for dungeons though because RJW feels mandatory due to breath of fire cone, so their damage is mediocre at best.

Cant say for legion though.

[js3915]

Sustained Damage is same as other tanks. Tank is quite survivable. Having reached mythic 11+ so no question it is survivable.

Only issues is no real burst damage also no real utility other than being able to survive and make it easy on healers, so top end world first competiting guilds question is bring a tank that is good surviving but doesnt bring too much else other than a bit of mobility or bring something that brings more utility to the raid..

Normal non world first competiting guilds BrM is fine in any Mythic content

[Saverem]

So, its not on par with DK, Druid, and DH healing, but its above Paladin, and ~par with Warriors.

I'd say BrMs are below Warriors as well if you count their Ignore Pain shield which is super OP right now.

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Sustained Damage is same as other tanks. Tank is quite survivable. Having reached mythic 11+ so no question it is survivable.

Only issues is no real burst damage also no real utility other than being able to survive and make it easy on healers, so top end world first competiting guilds question is bring a tank that is good surviving but doesnt bring too much else other than a bit of mobility or bring something that brings more utility to the raid..

Normal non world first competiting guilds BrM is fine in any Mythic content

BrMs are very good tanks for Mythic+ (top 3), their abilities like Paralysis/Leg Sweep for trash and Invoke Niuzao which is a pet that can TAUNT BOSSES and buy you some time to get healed and such, is very good utility for Mythic+. Raids on the other hand, BrMs are definitely at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

[madmossy]

I'd say BrMs are below Warriors as well if you count their Ignore Pain shield which is super OP right now.

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BrMs are very good tanks for Mythic+ (top 3), their abilities like Paralysis/Leg Sweep for trash and Invoke Niuzao which is a pet that can TAUNT BOSSES and buy you some time to get healed and such, is very good utility for Mythic+. Raids on the other hand, BrMs are definitely at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately.

That in itself is a huge issue, if the community get even a slight hint that monks won't be viable for raids for what ever reason, people won't play them.

I find it funny that they remove Guard from BM's and basically give it to Warriors.

[Saverem]

That in itself is a huge issue, if the community get even a slight hint that monks won't be viable for raids for what ever reason, people won't play them.

I find it funny that they remove Guard from BM's and basically give it to Warriors.

I was just thinking about that Guard thing. Ignore Pain is basically a BETTER version of Guard since it doesn't have a CD, you can keep using it as much as you want as long as you have the rage.

BrMs are basically the worst tanks for raiding right now, but unless you're in a min/max guild, it doesn't really matter as they are still viable raid tanks. If you're in a normal progression guild, BrMs are fine for raiding. All the min/maxers are flocking towards GDruid, PWarrior and BDKs though as they are the top 3 right now.

Top 3 for Mythic+ are BDKs, VDH, and BrMs though.

[stross01]

I was just thinking about that Guard thing. Ignore Pain is basically a BETTER version of Guard since it doesn't have a CD, you can keep using it as much as you want as long as you have the rage.

BrMs are basically the worst tanks for raiding right now, but unless you're in a min/max guild, it doesn't really matter as they are still viable raid tanks. If you're in a normal progression guild, BrMs are fine for raiding. All the min/maxers are flocking towards GDruid, PWarrior and BDKs though as they are the top 3 right now.

Top 3 for Mythic+ are BDKs, VDH, and BrMs though.

Don't perpetuate the bolded part. There has been little raid testing done. When a tank cannot do any sort of cutting-edge progression, they will get immediately buffed within days, like always.

Rerolling away from your preferred spec because some anonymous, irrelevant guy on MMO-Champion says that one tank is 1% better than another is as ridiculous as it sounds.

[Juliansfist]

I don't get how ignore pain is likened to guard when it really seems like the bastard child of shuffle and shield absorb (I forgot what that ability is called).

[js3915]

All the min/maxers are flocking towards GDruid.

Dno the vailidity but Gdruids just got their mastery cut in half which boosts healing and health and attack power and alot can change between now and first week of raid, something that looks good now could be meh by legion..

Think most monks remember WW which were killing it then got nerfed essentially first week of raiding Highmaul

[Saverem]

Dno the vailidity but Gdruids just got their mastery cut in half which boosts healing and health and attack power and alot can change between now and first week of raid, something that looks good now could be meh by legion..

Think most monks remember WW which were killing it then got nerfed essentially first week of raiding Highmaul

That statement isn't really valid because the game has been changing for the past 12 years, so using the "They may be OP now, but later on.... things might change!" isn't valid because WE KNOW things will change, guaranteed. So all of our theorycrafting, etc is based off of the CURRENT models. And right now, the CURRENT models have GDruids sitting pretty at the top with Warriors 2nd and DKs 3rd. Could this change in 7.1? Most likely. But this is why top end guilds level 2-3 "mains" to the top, so that they have all their bases covered in case something gets nerfed and they need to play as something else (or a particular fight favors one class over the other).

[js3915]

That statement isn't really valid because the game has been changing for the past 12 years, so using the "They may be OP now, but later on.... things might change!" isn't valid because WE KNOW things will change, guaranteed. So all of our theorycrafting, etc is based off of the CURRENT models. And right now, the CURRENT models have GDruids sitting pretty at the top with Warriors 2nd and DKs 3rd. Could this change in 7.1? Most likely. But this is why top end guilds level 2-3 "mains" to the top, so that they have all their bases covered in case something gets nerfed and they need to play as something else (or a particular fight favors one class over the other).

Well if u actually read what i wrote i essentially said the same thing.

Not sure how true the possible guardian nerf is but their mastery got cut in 1/2.

Either way something good today could be crap the week prior to raiding or first week of raiding as seen last expansion when WW were strong then nerfed first week in highmaul