No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[MasterHamster]

Its just for the money. You need more time to do things so have to buy more sub and keep playing longer before u get bored.

Thats the reason this is invented. Not for "ohh so u can see everthing beter" bs.

Imo it could just be a small Q when u reach max and get "Felflight?" for 200k or so.

It's a mix of not allowing people to blitz through everything, and allowing them to design better world content when they can have a reasonable idea on how players will tackle it. Sadly most of these happened during leveling in WoD so it didn't give no flying any real credit at max level. Flying changes the dynamics between player and environment so much it has way more ramifications than just being a question of travel speed. You'd have to be pretty blind not to notice that more and more world content has to be designed in local indoor areas (towers, bunkers, fortresses etc) to stop players from just swooping down at the end.

If no flight is purely for slowing down people's progress, then there's a billion other ways to accomplish that. And such systems ARE in play already. Who decided the price of artifact traits? Amount of exp to level? Amount of mats to craft the best profession gear? Droprates? Quest objectives? How fast we get reputation? Base movement speed? Gear requirements in raids etc?
All of these are "slowing us down"... because this is not a sandbox. This is a progression-based MMOs and those generally don't spoonfeed everyone the moment they log in and hand out gold stars and loot for participation only.

It's ALL a part of pacing the game and how we progress. Stop making it sound like a money grubbing scheme because it isn't. If staggered flight is a way to prolong content / increase subs, then EVERYTHING is.

[Deleted]

*watches the cloud of people safely afk above the invasion sites*

Sorry for cutting your post but i see what you are getting at. I am on Mafic side.

Flight actually enhances World-PvP. What it is better in is preventing griefing from happen to an unnecessary extent. And griefing is only pvp in some twisted ill minds. Why do you want to finght people that are not into fighting at the Moment? Because you want to tell them what and when they have to do something? Trying to be the boos in the field?

Sorry but if people want to fight, flight is one of the best ways to find and/or join fights very quick.

I have seen hundreds of post from so called "real PvPers" that in their twisted mind seem to think that they (and only they) should be allowed to determine how long a fight has to last.... aka picking on those that can't fight back. It takes a special kind of stupid to think those people are after "World PvP", the only thing those people care about is "ruining other peoples game experience as severe as they can" because they are pathetic losers that somehow get their kick out of antisocial crap like that.

If you really care about open World PvP you don't care about people AFKing up in the skies safety, cause they don't want to fight anyways right now. You don't care about people getting away after you beat them, because if they flee you have won. All a real PvP-player cares about is the opponent he is fighting right there and then. And if he gets outnumbered he gets away to come back and fight another time.... maybe with reinforcement.

Oh... an before you ask: i play on the same PvP-Server since February 2005. And i still deny those griefing scumbags the status of being a PvP-player. Cause they are not. Fight the ones that can't fight back or don't want to fight doesn't make you look skilled, it makes you look like don't know how to really play PvP.

[MasterHamster]

Sorry for cutting your post but i see what you are getting at. I am on Mafic side.

Flight actually enhances World-PvP. What it is better in is preventing griefing from happen to an unnecessary extent. And griefing is only pvp in some twisted ill minds. Why do you want to finght people that are not into fighting at the Moment? Because you want to tell them what and when they have to do something? Trying to be the boos in the field?

Sorry but if people want to fight, flight is one of the best ways to find and/or join fights very quick.

I have seen hundreds of post from so called "real PvPers" that in their twisted mind seem to think that they (and only they) should be allowed to determine how long a fight has to last.... aka picking on those that can't fight back. It takes a special kind of stupid to think those people are after "World PvP", the only thing those people care about is "ruining other peoples game experience as severe as they can" because they are pathetic losers that somehow get their kick out of antisocial crap like that.

If you really care about open World PvP you don't care about people AFKing up in the skies safety, cause they don't want to fight anyways right now. You don't care about people getting away after you beat them, because if they flee you have won. All a real PvP-player cares about is the opponent he is fighting right there and then. And if he gets outnumbered he gets away to come back and fight another time.... maybe with reinforcement.

Oh... an before you ask: i play on the same PvP-Server since February 2005. And i still deny those griefing scumbags the status of being a PvP-player. Cause they are not. Fight the ones that can't fight back or don't want to fight doesn't make you look skilled, it makes you look like don't know how to really play PvP.

I can't speak for gankers or griefers, nor really for the "REAL PVPERS", I'm discussing from a game design PoV. My entire point in this is the effects flying has when it's available, how it changes the dynamics from open PvP and friendly/contested/hostile zones to whether or not someone happened to be unmounted when they were attacked. This has since the last few years become some mockery of a discussion whether or not players have the right to decide when and where they are able to be attacked, even on PvP realms. As if spontaneous WPvP is an honorable duel, but the very nature of WPvP is that it's sudden, unplanned and very often unfair.

Being on the timeless isle alt-tabbed in the courtyard, hearing someone is trying to kill me, but ah-haaa, I was mounted and in 2 seconds of pressing space I was almost completely safe. Was that "choice"? Was that the fault of the aggressor for his inability to unmount me? Am I really supposed to have that power?

Flying is a safety like no other, and I do not think it belongs in the game, at least not before freshness has wore off and the negative effects of flying is reduced (seen it before, done that, progressed through that etc, and instead encourages leveling of alts). When I see players of opposing factions up in the air /spit-ing on eachother because the whole interaction is a joke where one (the aggressor) can't do anything but follow the attacked around until a moment when attacking is available again (ground), which only happens when the defendant (heh) 'decides' to land somewhere. Then that entire PvP engagement was decided the moment the defender managed to cast a 1.5 mounting and pressed space.

Damn would it be fun to watch if we could use all our abilities in air though. Very tough for melee of course but no less a sight to behold.
But the OUTRAGE!

[Mafic]

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you claim to understand how world PVP relates to flying and yet I still have to explain it to you? Enough said. But lets move on the meat of the issue with world PVP and flying mounts.

*watches the cloud of people safely afk above the invasion sites*
Yes, I suppose the bad PvPers can be upset that players are out of their reach to begin combat to begin with. Or that flying mounts are nearly impossible to beat compared to those escaping on a ground mount that are still at the mercy of the surrounding area and terrain. Escaping on a ground mount can be exhilerating, escaping on a flying mount is victory the moment you press spacebar

Why are you concerned about players on flying mounts away from the action and not the players on the ground where PVP is happening or could happen? So, in other words you want to gank easy targets but not that cluster of players doing an Legion invasion on the ground? Now I understand you clearly.

If you can not kill a target before they go out of combat and are able to have time to cast their flying mount then you do not deserve the kill. Stop being lazy and asking momma Blizzard to hold your hand to do world PVP. Escaping on a ground mount is exciting? If you are Pally I guess, but then a Pally would simply bubble hearth which is much easier anyways. So, why are you fixated on flying mounts robbing your "moment of glory" but not a Pally bubble hearthing?

Look at all these subjective experiences and fit-the-narratives we can throw at eachother!
Where exactly do these PvP battles happen, when the only real congregation zones in Draenor is Kazzak and Tanaan Zone bosses?

More world PVP happens in Emerald Dream in one month than happens in years on other PVP servers. Yeah those experiences matter even if they are subjective.

World PVP on Emerald Dream still happens at capital cities, WoD Ashran cities, and even at major quest hubs.

Understanding the game isn't black or white isn't undermining anything. However, trying to find the most common denominator apparently is. For me, the common denominator for world pvp to happen are design choices that make people compelled to go there. You're just hellbent on claiming that the fact that flying allows players to reach invasions faster is somehow balancing the issue that flight is almost completely disconnected from the plane where 99% of combat happens = the ground.

Common denominator for world PVP is the ability to go to a location quickly and escape. If the fighting increases then players are more inclined to stick around or bring reinforcements. If it takes too long for reinforcement to arrive than the PVP situation will die. Thus, a world designed with stupid obstacles makes world PVP harder, which is why vanilla is highly regarded for world PVP. Vanilla has maps that were navigable reasonably even if you did not stick with the main road.

Flying is detrimental to WPvP but of course it isn't outright, 100% hindering it to happen... assuming there's something causing them to find it worthwhile to be there, like Invasions do thanks to Nethershards and gear that can be titanforged to 720 which to many players is an upgrade.

The reason why invasion XP nerf was reverted was because players without flight found it cumbersome to try to attempt to do invasions despite their increased frequency.

And nah, it probably will never go away. Similar to people that still has to shoehorn "glory days of BC" into every post, or the evils or CRZ, or raiding changing from strict 40 or 10/25 to flexible. So much shit players feel worthwhile to complain about for months and years on end. Your entire "movements" strength was the failure of WoD to deliver content to keep players occupied, so No Flight essentially didn't accomplish anything. No Flight was supposed to re-focus how world content is tackled and experienced, but there were nearly none to experience after leveling.

Cool story bro, but Legion more of the same. Most of the Legion content is gated behind instances like all previous expansions. World quests longevity is one month max and maybe three months for a really casual player but that makes it a month or two more than WoDs world conten longevity at best. But that to me still makes it a failure if the goal is to with hold flying for six months to a year.

There will always be group upset about something. And I see you're still not acknowledging that Legions Pathfinder encompasses more than just one patch. So of course it's going to be "more grindy".

Objectively if you sit down and do the math (I am convinced you have not) Legion patchfinder part 1 will take you longer to complete than the entire WoD pathfinder achievement. I repeat part 1 is of Legion patchfinder is going to take longer than the entire WoD pathfinder achievement. And we do not know the length of the other parts or how many parts. Basically, it is going to be a train wreck. Players will be upset and feel betrayed by Blizzard and I would argue rightfully so.

Unlocking Flight in Legion is supposed to be a lengthy task spanning a sizeable chunk of the expansions timeline, just like maxing Artifacts or reputation. Working towards it instead of furiously awaiting the patch to "unlock flight". Feel satisfaction in accomplishing and not just hand over 1000 gold to unlock flight the moment you hit 110.

Doing rep grinds isn't working towards anything. Waiting for the next part of an achievement to be unlocked isn't working towards anything. Completing a task and waiting for mid expansion to be rewarded is sheer lunacy.

Because it's more interesting than freeform flight. It has a cooldown, it makes you think, and consider which FP is the nearest. It encourages you to unlock all FPs. Similar reasons to why I had no problems with Aviana's Feather. Items like them causes you to THINK and PLAN A BIT.

The whistle doesn't make you think if you use if off cool down and is simply a gimmick. Aviann's feather required no thinking skills and allowed players to be able to use it while in combat during world PVP or against NPCs that were aggro'd to that player. Avianna' feather was by far the most broken thing ever added to this game bar none.

That's what game designers do, yes. Same way they will never give us teleports to every area in the game. Finding balance.
How is this an issue? Would you prefer if they gave us no luxuries?

But they have given teleports nearly everywhere in the game, so that debunks your argument.

Flight is not a luxury as long as the current flight path system exists and the regressive way they are designing zones like rat mazes.

[Deleted]

Haha
Been playing main(s) on PvP servers since Jan 2006, Outland since BC. If people didn't try to bake no flight/flying into every single aspect of WoW, maybe you could see the dynamics of WPvP. Maybe the idea is "players not limited, flying = players out in zones = WPvP", World PvP is completely dead in Draenor despite flight being added again... could it be because players still have no real reason to be out in the zones unless they're on a new 100 clearing treasures for a couple of hours. Issues with WoDs world content design I've talked about many times. Invasions gave a ton of players, through transmog, pet, armor/weapon up to 720/725, reasons to be active in invasions. And surprise, WPvP happens as players are bunched up.

Maybe that's the thing in this topic? To players that refuse to see the reasons flight is removed/staggered in the beginning and actually require some effort to unlock, is because WoD, the apathy expansion, sadly got to set the standard. So an awful expansion with almost no non-raid content worth doing (no rewards) = no flight

Hell there are people that want to claim WoW lost 5 million subs because of no flight. What a joke.


The expansion where you can gear up to Mythic level gear without setting foot in a raid is a raid or die expansion?



I suppose I don't find it interesting to post thousands of times in one dull topic for two years
This topic is already dead and is on constant life-support. It had some influence in pre-release and on release when people just assumed flight would be handled like before, it took players by surprise. Blizzards vagueness in the topic further throwing shit on the fan. Now players have gone through pathfinder once, in Legion no one is really going to be surprised. Legions design seems many, many times better fitted for an expansion where flying is gone for a while... because players will actually have things to do for more than 2 weeks. And players that have things to do aren't going to spend the majority of their time bitching about flight being gone for a couple of major patches.

Flight is and remains a mid-to-late expansion luxury

You're so wrong. TOTALLY. I have been playing on a PvP server from Mid-BC to the end of MoP and the most active world PvP zones have been...
Nagrand in BC (PvP objective and elemental plateau - high end farm zone) and other pvp objectives (HFP for example)
Isle of Quel'danas daily zone
Tol Barad daily zone, Firelands daily zone
MoP daily zones, especially Golden Lotus dailys

Some of these areas had flight, this does not made wPvP any worse. In fact, it was just as active as in zone without pvp.

People just have to want to engage in this activity, that's all. Having flight or not is just a distraction from the real problem. Probably people just don't want to have wPvP anymore because it's pointless?

[wing5wong]

Sorry but if people want to fight, flight is one of the best ways to find and/or join fights very quick.

Because the mount is 310 speed and can go in any direction, yes.

You're so wrong. TOTALLY. I have been playing on a PvP server from Mid-BC to the end of MoP and the most active world PvP zones have been...
Nagrand in BC (PvP objective and elemental plateau - high end farm zone) and other pvp objectives (HFP for example)
Isle of Quel'danas daily zone
Tol Barad daily zone, Firelands daily zone
MoP daily zones, especially Golden Lotus dailys

Some of these areas had flight, this does not made wPvP any worse. In fact, it was just as active as in zone without pvp.

People just have to want to engage in this activity, that's all. Having flight or not is just a distraction from the real problem. Probably people just don't want to have wPvP anymore because it's pointless?

World pvp happened in these places because there was a reason for people to be there, as you said.
People came to those places on flightpaths, on ground mounts, on flyers it didnt matter. Flight didnt create these hotspots, content did.

Flight makes world PVP far more better (eg Legion invasions)

Content brings crowds which brings pvp. not flying.

Common denominator for world PVP is the ability to go to a location quickly and escape. If the fighting increases then players are more inclined to stick around or bring reinforcements. If it takes too long for reinforcement to arrive than the PVP situation will die. Thus, a world designed with stupid obstacles makes world PVP harder, which is why vanilla is highly regarded for world PVP. Vanilla has maps that were navigable reasonably even if you did not stick with the main road.

Vanilla had maps that were flat, open, and generally boring. Vanilla had classes that were outright broken - it was in no way highly regarded for any form of skillful, balanced (naked rogues?) world pvp.

I still find it hilarious that you believe anything higher than a molehill is a significantly unnavigable obstacle.

Doing rep grinds isn't working towards anything. Waiting for the next part of an achievement to be unlocked isn't working towards anything. Completing a task and waiting for mid expansion to be rewarded is sheer lunacy.

The rep grinds are not solely for unlocking flight? They have their own rewards, along with the completion of part 1 for your increased speed.

Flight is not a luxury as long as the current flight path system exists and the regressive way they are designing zones like rat mazes.

Post one (1) single picture of a rat maze zone. id love to see it. Highlight the path you have difficulty with. Seriously, just one. If you can add a video of you struggling too, that would make my day.
No single poster making this claim has shown a picture or vod of these seemingly impossible to navigate zones.

[MasterHamster]

Why are you concerned about players on flying mounts away from the action and not the players on the ground where PVP is happening or could happen? So, in other words you want to gank easy targets but not that cluster of players doing an Legion invasion on the ground? Now I understand you clearly.

If you can not kill a target before they go out of combat and are able to have time to cast their flying mount then you do not deserve the kill. Stop being lazy and asking momma Blizzard to hold your hand to do world PVP. Escaping on a ground mount is exciting? If you are Pally I guess, but then a Pally would simply bubble hearth which is much easier anyways. So, why are you fixated on flying mounts robbing your "moment of glory" but not a Pally bubble hearthing?

Wow, that's a very nice amount of speculation on your part. I'd be delighted to know how you came to the conclusion that by critiquing flyings near guaranteed safety in WPvP, I want to gank easy targets.

Hint: I never spoke about my personal PvP experience, but from a design PoV, as always.
In case the "cloud of afkers" wasn't clearly enough a jab at the situation.

And yes I'd argue that escaping from an aggressor on a ground mount is more exciting. Escaping on the ground, being at the mercy of surrounding mobs, players and terrain, is more interesting than holding space until you're 40 yards up.

The reason why invasion XP nerf was reverted was because players without flight found it cumbersome to try to attempt to do invasions despite their increased frequency.

It wasn't reverted... nor do you have any idea what exactly made them change it. But of course, your preferred narrative says it was because now players couldn't be arsed to travel from Kalimdor to Eastern Kingdoms.
From what we do know: We had insane exp per invasion for little to no participation, and then the amount of invasions available increased. Exp per stages was reduced, exp from kills increased to encourage more activity from levellers.

Your inferred certainty at things you cannot reasonably prove doesn't really help.

Cool story bro, but Legion more of the same. Most of the Legion content is gated behind instances like all previous expansions. World quests longevity is one month max and maybe three months for a really casual player but that makes it a month or two more than WoDs world conten longevity at best. But that to me still makes it a failure if the goal is to with hold flying for six months to a year.

You'll excuse me if I don't take much heed to the approximations from someone that is going to be negative no matter what until he gets what he feels entitled to.

Objectively if you sit down and do the math (I am convinced you have not) Legion patchfinder part 1 will take you longer to complete than the entire WoD pathfinder achievement. I repeat part 1 is of Legion patchfinder is going to take longer than the entire WoD pathfinder achievement. And we do not know the length of the other parts or how many parts. Basically, it is going to be a train wreck. Players will be upset and feel betrayed by Blizzard and I would argue rightfully so.

I still see nothing negative about this. Pathfinder will be done together with all other content, not as a panicked rushjob like WoDs flight meta achi. And parts of the flight achi rewards you in other ways as well. Legion's Pathfinder isn't a self-contained grind but intertwined with the rest of the Legion non-raid content.

I can't give a detailed estimate of exactly when the next step will unlock. We have a solid patch plan in the works, but we need to remain flexible to adapt to player needs once the expansion launches, and there's no way to even hint at a date without it sounding like a promise. That said, I can say that Part One should represent a significant majority of the total effort required to ultimately unlock flight. Patch content will see players adventuring within new parts of the Broken Isles, and there will likely be one or two additional criteria associated with that content. At that point, players will unlock the ability to fly throughout the Broken Isles.

Finally, I've seen some concern about rep "grinding" associated with this achievement. All of the referenced reputations are earned by doing level-up quests and world quests associated with those factions throughout the Broken Isles. There are no mob-grinding components to any of these reputations. Frankly, the Legion Pathfinder achievement was much easier to design than Draenor Pathfinder was, simply because we have much more outdoor world content in Legion.

But of course, you've given yourself the mandate to call Watcher a liar, so none of this matters.

Oh, and is your deliberate misspelling some sort of rebellion..?

[Deleted]

This has since the last few years become some mockery of a discussion whether or not players have the right to decide when and where they are able to be attacked, even on PvP realms. As if spontaneous WPvP is an honorable duel, but the very nature of WPvP is that it's sudden, unplanned and very often unfair.

Erm.... that IS from a griefers perspectiv. In a perfect/good world things ARE fair. And the world in a game is the easiest and most possible way to make things fair. Only a pitiful griefer asks for things to remain unfair as long as it is to THERI advantage. They are the first to complain if they get an disadvantage for their cowardly playstyle.

In short: PvP unsuspected? yes. Unavoidable and no chance of getting away? no. That just brings in the worst types of players to a game.

Being on the timeless isle alt-tabbed in the courtyard, hearing someone is trying to kill me, but ah-haaa, I was mounted and in 2 seconds of pressing space I was almost completely safe. Was that "choice"? Was that the fault of the aggressor for his inability to unmount me? Am I really supposed to have that power?

I didn't know that you could fly on timeless isle while it was relevant. Sorry, no you couldn't. So what are you trying to tell me? Timeless isle was ok: it was a small island where you couldn't fly, but still avoid being ganked.

Flying is a safety like no other, and I do not think it belongs in the game, at least not before freshness has wore off and the negative effects of flying is reduced (seen it before, done that, progressed through that etc, and instead encourages leveling of alts).

There is no problem to the safety of flight, because it comes with unmatched choice when and from which direction you want to start or engage a fight.
Good thing you are not the one to decide what belongs into this game, cause i truly believe.... no, i KNOW it DOES belong to the game. Could it be better and more fleshed out? Yes. But removing won't solve anything. And it didn't, it caused trouble in Warlords.

When I see players of opposing factions up in the air /spit-ing on eachother because the whole interaction is a joke where one (the aggressor) can't do anything but follow the attacked around until a moment when attacking is available again (ground), which only happens when the defendant (heh) 'decides' to land somewhere. Then that entire PvP engagement was decided the moment the defender managed to cast a 1.5 mounting and pressed space.

That is highly subjective. Let me tell you my story: during Warlords i have seen more world PvP going on in old regions than in all of Draenor together. And that was way before patch 6.2. So who of us is rightier? Nobody, because it is highly subjective. If you want to see all the bad that lies within flight, than that is what you see all the time. You don't even try to see the good possibilities flight brings to you. You are just against it.

Damn would it be fun to watch if we could use all our abilities in air though. Very tough for melee of course but no less a sight to behold.
But the OUTRAGE!

Why would melees be in a disadvandage? Warrior intercept, druid sprint, rogues stealth..... IF all abbilities would be useable while mounted it wouldn't be anything else like fighting on the ground, only with a third axis just like in Vashir. ;-) See..... with all your arguments, you seem to leave out all the positive things about a certain subject on purpose.

- - - Updated - - -
@wing5wrong:

sure content brings masses.... sadly that didn't work all that good during Draenor without flight. Of course you can still pretend that flight didn't have anything to do with the players mass exodus during the first 6 month of WoD. The reality does it's thing in the meanwhile. Do... what ever you are doing. But i grew tired of telling you how wrong you are when you start to twist things around to your likings.

[MasterHamster]

Erm.... that IS from a griefers perspectiv. In a perfect/good world things ARE fair. And the world in a game is the easiest and most possible way to make things fair. Only a pitiful griefer asks for things to remain unfair as long as it is to THERI advantage. They are the first to complain if they get an disadvantage for their cowardly playstyle.

In short: PvP unsuspected? yes. Unavoidable and no chance of getting away? no. That just brings in the worst types of players to a game.

I don't see how it's griefing. Griefing is when PvP (or certain activities in PvE) causes prolonged disruption of someones ability to play. Like corpsecamping or camping spirit healers when you can only ress by them, or killing all quest npcs over and over for the sole reason of stopping people from progressing in that area.

And the 'unfairness' isn't exclusive to the "griefer". Anyone can find themselves with CDs ready and health at 100% and see a "ganker" at low health and take advantage. Only way to make WPvP fair was if a pvp engagement caused health to be restored, CDs refilled, potion ready etc.
WPvP is by it's very nature unfair. But we seem to have differing ideas of what unfair means here.

A rogue waiting in stealth for a questing player to fall to low health and finish with an ambush is "unfair" yet I see nothing technically "wrong" with it and certainly not griefing

Cowardly, if anything. But hey, players 'always' exploit advantages if they can

I didn't know that you could fly on timeless isle while it was relevant. Sorry, no you couldn't. So what are you trying to tell me? Timeless isle was ok: it was a small island where you couldn't fly, but still avoid being ganked.

My memory is obviously playing a trick on me. Regardless it applies to any zone with flight activated so it's not like the point doesn't stand. As long as you're mounted on a flying mount you have an enormous ability to just disengage at will. Or never get caught in PvP to begin with

There is no problem to the safety of flight, because it comes with unmatched choice when and from which direction you want to start or engage a fight.
Good thing you are not the one to decide what belongs into this game, cause i truly believe.... no, i KNOW it DOES belong to the game. Could it be better and more fleshed out? Yes. But removing won't solve anything. And it didn't, it caused trouble in Warlords.

We'll never get away from the fact that WoD lacked content worth doing and that caused a massive amount of players to stay in their garrisons, and that sure retracts from any likelihood of pvp occuring. Then again, so does flying if I, for example, want to get from the base in Tanaan to Kazzak. Nothing can attack me until I land. Well, they might get a couple of spells in then either fall to their death or have to rely on slowfall abilities

That is highly subjective. Let me tell you my story: during Warlords i have seen more world PvP going on in old regions than in all of Draenor together. And that was way before patch 6.2. So who of us is rightier? Nobody, because it is highly subjective. If you want to see all the bad that lies within flight, than that is what you see all the time. You don't even try to see the good possibilities flight brings to you. You are just against it. See..... with all your arguments, you seem to leave out all the positive things about a certain subject on purpose.

That is mostly because any time I try to mention the grey area inbetween the black and white, I just get told I'm undermining my own arguments, it gets a bit tiring..

[Hexxidecimal]

sure content brings masses.... sadly that didn't work all that good during Draenor without flight. Of course you can still pretend that flight didn't have anything to do with the players mass exodus during the first 6 month of WoD. The reality does it's thing in the meanwhile. Do... what ever you are doing. But i grew tired of telling you how wrong you are when you start to twist things around to your likings.

Ok firstly I am mostly pro flight.

I see a lot of other pro flighters say this. PROVIDE PROOF or you are just blowing steam. You hurt your point when you make claims for which you have zero empirical evidence. Almost my entire guild quit WoD and none of them did that because of flying. This is of course anecdotal experience but I am not claiming anything, you are. The burden of proof is on you. You can't point to all the people who jumped ship and say SEE CUZ FLYING. That is a logical fallacy; confirmation bias.

[Deleted]

Didn't follow most of the discussion, but I'll just assume most arguments are still the same as in WoD.

I'll just throw in my 2 cents for now

I think flight is detrimental to good quest design and flow because you can easily "skip" most parts with flight. It does not, however, guarantee good quest design, and late in an expansion being able to skip the odd daily quest is actually quite nice... if you have to redo the same thing over and over, it's nice if stuff gets easier in the end.

So that speaks for redoing the way flying was handled in WoD... add it, but only add it after most "new" stuff is done anyway. It's a convienence and not hurting anyone anymore at this point.

On the other hand, it's also possible to integrate flying into the odd zone without hurting PvP and quest flow if the zone is designed for just that. But the zone flow kind of has to be designed around that to not feel weird.

For an example, if Blizzard ever made an expansion around the underground kingdoms like azjol'nerub and similiar parts, they could have zones underground with no flying and some zones on top with flying and it would feel natural.

An open landscape that goes from flying allowed to suddenly dismounting you (think wintergrasp) feels annoying to me personally.


Overall I'm probably more on the no flying side of the argument, but playing in some legion zones there are quite a few badly designed spots that make you do annoying detours where I would LOVE to be able to fly instead. With no flying allowed it's really important that the zones are easy to navigate without getting "stuck" all the time. Else I'd rather have flying with all the down sides.

I guess I'll be fine in legion though after getting used to the zones a bit more. The whistle makes it easy to get back to a flight master and there's some toys to give you the odd "flight" like mechanic to get around if really needed.

[Mafic]

Wow, that's a very nice amount of speculation on your part. I'd be delighted to know how you came to the conclusion that by critiquing flyings near guaranteed safety in WPvP, I want to gank easy targets.

You explicitly cited examples: 1. Players are hovering on flying on mounts and 2. That players have an easier time to get away via flying mounts. If you can't figure out way to kill players in world PVP but have to rely on overbearing nerfs across the board from Blizzard (aka no flying) then it shows your position clearly. Moving on.

Hint: I never spoke about my personal PvP experience, but from a design PoV, as always.
In case the "cloud of afkers" wasn't clearly enough a jab at the situation.

Design point of view? There is no design point of view when it comes to world PVP as Blizzard hasn't cared about world PVP ever since the PVP instance system has been introduced. This isn't rocket science. Either you have world PVP experienced you can share or you do not. If I wait any longer I will end up a corpse at this rate but I guess I am willing to wait and see you provide your world PVP point of views. But I will not hold my breathe either.

And yes I'd argue that escaping from an aggressor on a ground mount is more exciting. Escaping on the ground, being at the mercy of surrounding mobs, players and terrain, is more interesting than holding space until you're 40 yards up.

Most classes have de-aggro mechanics or having increased mount speed or the ability for mass CC. Exciting as watching paint dry from my view. At this point we get it...you don't want your gank targets to easily escape. We can read between the lines despite not sharing your world PVP experiences.

It wasn't reverted... nor do you have any idea what exactly made them change it. But of course, your preferred narrative says it was because now players couldn't be arsed to travel from Kalimdor to Eastern Kingdoms.
From what we do know: We had insane exp per invasion for little to no participation, and then the amount of invasions available increased. Exp per stages was reduced, exp from kills increased to encourage more activity from levellers.

They hotfixed the XP buff recently so it was reverted and I am fully aware that players did find it cumbersome to chase down increased Legion invasions on alts that did not have access to flying mounts or near the vicinity of an unlocked flight path. Blizzard is the one that has removed unlocked flight paths as you go as great for "exploration" but all it has done from my view is hinder player progression and acts as another unneeded time sink layer.

Your inferred certainty at things you cannot reasonably prove doesn't really help.

This isn't a science debate. This isn't rocket science. I as a player am stating explicitly that no flying doesn't work and outlining why that is the case. Anti flyers have nothing to point to with a positive game experience by removing flying, because WoD was a turd. At this point I am going to sit back and watch the carnage unfold as players flood the official forums for clarification on flights future in Legion. That is fundamentally no different with how WoD proceeded from my perspective.

I still see nothing negative about this. Pathfinder will be done together with all other content, not as a panicked rushjob like WoDs flight meta achi. And parts of the flight achi rewards you in other ways as well. Legion's Pathfinder isn't a self-contained grind but intertwined with the rest of the Legion non-raid content.

I can't give a detailed estimate of exactly when the next step will unlock. We have a solid patch plan in the works, but we need to remain flexible to adapt to player needs once the expansion launches, and there's no way to even hint at a date without it sounding like a promise. That said, I can say that Part One should represent a significant majority of the total effort required to ultimately unlock flight. Patch content will see players adventuring within new parts of the Broken Isles, and there will likely be one or two additional criteria associated with that content. At that point, players will unlock the ability to fly throughout the Broken Isles.

Finally, I've seen some concern about rep "grinding" associated with this achievement. All of the referenced reputations are earned by doing level-up quests and world quests associated with those factions throughout the Broken Isles. There are no mob-grinding components to any of these reputations. Frankly, the Legion Pathfinder achievement was much easier to design than Draenor Pathfinder was, simply because we have much more outdoor world content in Legion.

But of course, you've given yourself the mandate to call Watcher a liar, so none of this matters.

Oh, and is your deliberate misspelling some sort of rebellion..?

If you can't comprehend the sinister part of legion patchfinder then it seems you will learn the hard way with what they have done and many players will feel upset with what Blizzard has done. Even presuming that Blizzard has a plan this time around (not likely) for flight in Legion, that shows that they are not committed to it by chopping up the pieces into parts and not disclosing the remainder requirements for the patch finder.

Rep grinding is going to break players and this will be complained about on the forums constantly, because rep grinding has no point to understanding the story of Legion expansion. Furthermore, last time I checked doing rep grinds is not really content which is why Blizzard abandoned rep grind requirements for the rest of the game long ago.

Patch finder has failed already and shows Blizzard is not confident in their product by having to break it up into pieces. At this point it is not a question IF patchfinder has failed, but when it will fail. If all indications shows that patch 7.1 does not contain part 2 of Legion patchfinder I expect a huge tsunami of tears to wash over the official WoW forums.

[FertsBlert]

*watches the cloud of people safely afk above the invasion sites*

Get you a drood and a Spike Toed Bootarang that should work yeah?

Have some fun farming those who think they are safe.

As for the WPvP argument that's fine leave flight turned off on PvP servers but since I'm on PvE and WPvP is not actually a common part of my server I'll have flight thank you.

[Hexxidecimal]

If you can't comprehend the sinister part of legion patchfinder then it seems you will learn the hard way with what they have done and many players will feel upset with what Blizzard has done. Even presuming that Blizzard has a plan this time around (not likely) for flight in Legion, that shows that they are not committed to it by chopping up the pieces into parts and not disclosing the remainder requirements for the patch finder.

Rep grinding is going to break players and this will be complained about on the forums constantly, because rep grinding has no point to understanding the story of Legion expansion. Furthermore, last time I checked doing rep grinds is not really content which is why Blizzard abandoned rep grind requirements for the rest of the game long ago.

Patch finder has failed already and shows Blizzard is not confident in their product by having to break it up into pieces. At this point it is not a question IF patchfinder has failed, but when it will fail. If all indications shows that patch 7.1 does not contain part 2 of Legion patchfinder I expect a huge tsunami of tears to wash over the official WoW forums.

Firstly I want to verify are you calling it patchfinder since we have to find the patch in which it will be completely implemented? If so that is funny to me, good play on words. If not, well you can just act like you were and I'll never know.

I have read the pathfinder requirements we have so far, I fail to see anything sinister about it. I have noticed most of the rep grinds are stuff you get passively for crap I'll be doing anyway, and that is the hardest part of the whole thing. If you can even call it hard. The only thing I see is requirments you don't want to bother with, which is fair enough. Though it feel like you are trying to legitimize your opinion by making pathfinder out to be some boogey man. It's over the top.

Rep grinding has literally been a part of this game since vanilla. It hasn't broke the game yet, it's not likely too anytime soon. You are blowing this waaaaay out of proportion, again to legitimzie your opinion (which you don't need, it's your opinion you can feel however you want). Also they never abandoned rep grind requirements I have no idea what you are talking about. They have shifted rewards occasionally but they have never abandoned it.

You claimed Pathfinder has failed already? In what way? By what metric? Do you have proof to the correlation to that metric? Unsubstantiated claims don't make things real.

[Mafic]

Get you a drood and a Spike Toed Bootarang that should work yeah?

Have some fun farming those who think they are safe.

As for the WPvP argument that's fine leave flight turned off on PvP servers but since I'm on PvE and WPvP is not actually a common part of my server I'll have flight thank you.

Yup, and that ends all the world PVP arguments as a lot of players are on PVE realms.

[rebecca191]

My main issue having played beta is not that the achievement is so dreadful but that it's still not enough to unlock flying. You can do it all and you still have to wait until some unspecified time in the future and also do some unspecified tasks in the future. Considering how lengthy the Suramar portion of the achievement is, faster ground mount speed is a crappy reward. If you level up primarily via questing you will probably have approximately 3 1/2 zones of the Loremaster achievement completed already, this will vary a bit depending on if you do a few dungeons along the way and whether you do the quest lines for your offspec artifacts while leveling. 100 unique world quests will be boring but quick. There are tons on your map every day. I feel sorry for completists who will feel the need to clear every one every single day lol.

But I honestly feel that if people complain when Legion goes live, it's going to be about the length of time you are still stuck dealing with all the crap on the ground even after fully completing the current achievement. I don't think there's any good enough reason to delay flying at all, and even the reasons of the developers which I think are rather poor reasons, don't hold up at all once that achievement is completed.

[SirCowdog]

Ok firstly I am mostly pro flight.

I see a lot of other pro flighters say this. PROVIDE PROOF or you are just blowing steam. You hurt your point when you make claims for which you have zero empirical evidence. Almost my entire guild quit WoD and none of them did that because of flying. This is of course anecdotal experience but I am not claiming anything, you are. The burden of proof is on you. You can't point to all the people who jumped ship and say SEE CUZ FLYING. That is a logical fallacy; confirmation bias.

Just to play devil's advocate, provide proof that lack of content was the reason for people unsubbing WoD?

The problem here is that there were a LOT of reasons why people left WoD: No flying was part of that, lack of content was another, another orc-centric expansion was probably also a factor. No one can point to any single reason as the primary reason for WoD's poor performance. Regardless of what people want to push to make their opinion seem stronger, flight(or its lack) was a pretty big issue, on the same level as RealID or other game changers. The sheer volume of discussion across the various mediums, and clearly SOMETHING caused Blizzard to reverse their decision of no-flying-ever-again. Will we ever know what, exactly? Probably not. But I think it's at least fair to say that dropping subs had some impact on that decision, even if it wasn't the primary cause.

Didn't follow most of the discussion, but I'll just assume most arguments are still the same as in WoD.

You might consider taking some time to read some of the backlog(skim over it at least). A lot of the arguments are the same, but some of them have actually advanced in surprising ways.

I think flight is detrimental to good quest design and flow because you can easily "skip" most parts with flight.

I agree with most of your post. However, I wanted to point out the fallacy that a lot of people seem to always make when presenting their opinion on no-flying. What you just said here is only true if the design of the quest ignores the existence of flight. What blizzard should be doing to avoid this problem is to design quests in such a way so that a player using flight(in any form, whether mounted, aviana's feather, glider, or just Demon Hunter skills) does not make the obstacles of the quest irrelevant. A lot of different ways have been suggested on how to do this, from anti-air cannons, harpoons to dragon flying players to NPCs, placing objectives indoors, flying NPCs, making trash mobs part of the quest objective instead of being an environmental hazard, etc.

There's no disputing that completely unrestricted flight is an incredibly powerful tool for the player. But that doesn't mean it's the sole cause of the problem.

I have read the pathfinder requirements we have so far, I fail to see anything sinister about it.

I don't know if I would use the word "sinister", but there are a few things that are a little bit shady about how Legion Pathfinder is being presented. First is that we don't have any exact time-frame for when we'll be able to complete it and actually obtain flying. Second is that there's no concrete info on what all will be required to complete Pathfinder and obtain flight. Third, AFAIK completing Pathfinder still requires completing virtually everything you'd otherwise want to use flight on, making flight practically worthless unless you're a heavy alt player.

The way I see it, there are only really two likely reasons for obfuscating info on flight in this way: Either they want to do the same thing they did in WoD, and use flying as a carrot(one among many) to keep people playing who might otherwise quit without flight, or because they actually have some kind of plan on how to use flying in Legion that isn't distilled jackal ass like WoD Pathfinder.

Given Blizzard's treatment of flying in MoP with heavy use of no-fly islands, the three ring circus of WoD, and how they're being so tight-fisted with info about in Legion, I highly suspect it's the former reason rather than the latter. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting to find out.

[Hexxidecimal]

Just to play devil's advocate, provide proof that lack of content was the reason for people unsubbing WoD?

The problem here is that there were a LOT of reasons why people left WoD: No flying was part of that, lack of content was another, another orc-centric expansion was probably also a factor. No one can point to any single reason as the primary reason for WoD's poor performance. Regardless of what people want to push to make their opinion seem stronger, flight(or its lack) was a pretty big issue, on the same level as RealID or other game changers. The sheer volume of discussion across the various mediums, and clearly SOMETHING caused Blizzard to reverse their decision of no-flying-ever-again. Will we ever know what, exactly? Probably not. But I think it's at least fair to say that dropping subs had some impact on that decision, even if it wasn't the primary cause.

I am sorry but that is not how proof works. I am claiming nothing here. I don't need to provide proof because I have no claim. If someone claims that no flight is what caused the massed exodus then they need to provide evidence. I have zero issue with this being fact. Hell it wouldn't even surprise me. My point isn't to provide a counter point, my point is to show that if you can't provide proof of this claim then you simply can't use it in the way in which they were. Sure it's fair to claim that some people quit cause of it, but without any idea what percentage that was it's honestly pointless to even bring it up. If this is going to be used as a bullet point for pro flyers then it needs to be accompanied by the disclaimer that this is an opinion and not necessarily fact. Again I am mostly pro flight. That is to say I would rather have it than not, just that not having it doesn't make or break anything for me. All the more reason why I want the pro flight arguments to hold water and not come off as embellished doomsaying. To note, you aren't one of those people Sircowdog. I feel your arguments have a solid amount of logic attached to them.

I don't know if I would use the word "sinister", but there are a few things that are a little bit shady about how Legion Pathfinder is being presented. First is that we don't have any exact time-frame for when we'll be able to complete it and actually obtain flying. Second is that there's no concrete info on what all will be required to complete Pathfinder and obtain flight. Third, AFAIK completing Pathfinder still requires completing virtually everything you'd otherwise want to use flight on, making flight practically worthless unless you're a heavy alt player.

The way I see it, there are only really two likely reasons for obfuscating info on flight in this way: Either they want to do the same thing they did in WoD, and use flying as a carrot(one among many) to keep people playing who might otherwise quit without flight, or because they actually have some kind of plan on how to use flying in Legion that isn't distilled jackal ass like WoD Pathfinder.

Given Blizzard's treatment of flying in MoP with heavy use of no-fly islands, the three ring circus of WoD, and how they're being so tight-fisted with info about in Legion, I highly suspect it's the former reason rather than the latter. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting to find out.

I suppose those two unarguable points could be construed as shady. Let me also parrot your idea that the lack of info is NOT something that actually utilizes flight in a cool way. I wish it was but I very much doubt so. I think it's entirely likely that it could be a carrot on a stick sort of thing. It certainly felt that way in WoD. I am hoping that isn't the case here. From what I have gathered it won't be needed for that purpose, but they may think so anyway. I think it's just as likely that they don't even have the details nailed down yet. So much of the development process is fluid and what they will or won't want to attach to it may not be nailed down yet. I also think it's just as likely that there is still internal debate among the devs as to how much or when it should be allowed. In regards to flying not be given until you've done everything that you'd want to do flying for, honestly that is the point of it to a certain extent. This is all content they want you to do without flying. So this is more the direct point more than anything. In my opinion finally achieving flight felt really awesome. This is not the case for everyone. I get that. And if they would concede on at least nailing down a date and being upfront for what is required this bitter pilll would be easier to swallow.

[Mafic]

Legion patch finder is a sinister ploy to pacify players before they find out the truth of what the Blizzard devs have done.

[wing5wong]

@wing5wong:

sure content brings masses.... sadly that didn't work all that good during Draenor without flight. Of course you can still pretend that flight didn't have anything to do with the players mass exodus during the first 6 month of WoD. The reality does it's thing in the meanwhile. Do... what ever you are doing. But i grew tired of telling you how wrong you are when you start to twist things around to your likings.

WoD didnt have content that brought you to a focal point outside of the tanaan dailies, where there certainly was world pvp happening.
Whats twisted about that statement rofl.

The majority of the WoD outside had no reason for players to be there - hence a lack of pvp encounters

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stuck dealing with all the crap on the ground even after fully completing the current achievement.

You mean.. the content. gotcha.

- - - Updated - - -

Legion patch finder is a sinister ploy to pacify players before they find out the truth of what the Blizzard devs have done.

Your wording is hilarious. This isnt a horror story, there is no sinister plot. SMH.