Nighthold is coming out in early 2017

[Darkguyver2020]

Wait what, are they going to count EN and NH as separate tiers, and have one more after that, and claim they had 3 raid tiers? LOL if so, my signature be damned - that's kind of pathetic and disingenuous, given all the information we got until this point. So if this is true, then EN=T19, NH=T20. And we have a tier with literally no tier set ...

This and the rumor I read about no tier tokens kind of has me worried. So what, a system that has worked since fucking AQ40 suddenly doesn't work any more? But hey, I will have plenty of time for alts, even with the artifact system...

No. Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold are going to be one tier. Legion's first tier will be operating in the same format they've used for MoP (Mogu'shan Vaults, Heart of Fear, Terrace of Endless Spring) and WoD (Highmaul, Blackrock Foundry). They're just staggering the releases for the raids.
Expect there to be two more tiers after that. Plus maybe some short raids sprinkled in if the Stormheim one is any indication.

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RIP vanilla/tbc, we miss you.

No. No we don't.
Please take off those rose tinted goggles.

[Defend]

Sorry, but if your guild is only being held together on the premise of one specific raid then it is in more trouble than you realise.

Huh? I never said that...

[Mafic]

you will be quite dispointed i fear - this time around they plan to make trinekts boring and tier not so powerful -_-

Yup, that is their plan. To me they have to show a lot for patch 7.2, or Legion is going to have the same fate as WoD.

[Deleted]

Nighthold will be higher ilvl then Emeral Nightmare. Highmaul wasnt even cleared by enought people on mythic before blackrock foundry got released.

[meroko]

why do people pretend this is something new? It happened in MoP, it worked very well, it happened in WoD, it worked very well. Why wouldn't it happen again and why would ANYONE be surprised that it is happening again? Staggering release prolongs content, gives more casual focused guilds more time to progress, and the best part is this time there will be a massive dungeon (rehashed or not) and a smaller raid to do while we wait for Nighthold.

[Imnick]

Yup, that is their plan. To me they have to show a lot for patch 7.2, or Legion is going to have the same fate as WoD.

...trinkets boring? Have you looked at the dungeon journal?
This is the best set of trinkets we've had in years, possibly ever. Even the dungeon trinkets are great.

[Mafic]

why do people pretend this is something new? It happened in MoP, it worked very well, it happened in WoD, it worked very well. Why wouldn't it happen again and why would ANYONE be surprised that it is happening again? Staggering release prolongs content, gives more casual focused guilds more time to progress, and the best part is this time there will be a massive dungeon (rehashed or not) and a smaller raid to do while we wait for Nighthold.

It didn't work well in MoP or WoD, because a lot of players are voicing feedback that this approach hasn't worked thus far.

[meroko]

It didn't work well in MoP or WoD, because a lot of players are voicing feedback that this approach hasn't worked thus far.

It did work well. you're grasping at straws and you know it. The release stagger has been successful and while it may not have been perfect it certainly is a vast improvement from the earlier expansions

[Nyel]

No. No we don't.
Please take off those rose tinted goggles.

Even when I'm taking them off raiding in Classic and TBC was superior to raiding now (not in terms of boss mechanics but in terms of design and progression). Nothing comes close to the TBC raid system.

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why do people pretend this is something new? It happened in MoP, it worked very well, it happened in WoD, it worked very well. Why wouldn't it happen again and why would ANYONE be surprised that it is happening again? Staggering release prolongs content, gives more casual focused guilds more time to progress, and the best part is this time there will be a massive dungeon (rehashed or not) and a smaller raid to do while we wait for Nighthold.

It did not work very well. In MoP yes but the delay was much shorter than in WoD. In WoD it did not work. And no, this kind of raid-launch-system is worse than what they had in TBC, Lich King or Cataclysm.

[Darkguyver2020]

Even when I'm taking them off raiding in Classic and TBC was superior to raiding now (not in terms of boss mechanics but in terms of design and progression). Nothing comes close to the TBC raid system.

Are you freaking kidding me?

Vanilla had you endlessly grinding Molten Core to gear around 40 people just so they could set foot in the next raid. And if even one person decided to leave the guild, you were sent spiraling back to square one.
Also, remember the Aqual Quintessence? Needing at least seven people to be honored with the Hydraxian Waterlords so they could douse the runes to summon Executus and Ragnaros. That was a fun mechanic, wasn't it? Not tedious in the slightest. /s

Then BC could be summed up with "Hey! We heard you like attunements. So we put attunements in your attunements so you can attune while you attune!". There were so many hoops to jump through in BC, it's a wonder anyone managed to progress past Karazhan, let alone the other raids. And don't even get me started on Sunwell.

Again. Please take off those rose tinted goggles. They are making you blind as well as stupid.

[justflayin]

While I am dissapointed that they are delaying nighthold and putting this Stormheim raid in between, I will save my thoughts until I see the Stormheim raid and if it will be enough to hold my guild over.

What did they delay? They haven't posted the raid schedule yet. They've also said several times they thought HM and BRF were released too close to each other...

[justflayin]

They have just now

My apologies for not knowing that, but when this thread was posted they hadn't. My point still stands that they said EM and NH would be spaced out quite a bit.

[Nyel]

Are you freaking kidding me?

Vanilla had you endlessly grinding Molten Core to gear around 40 people just so they could set foot in the next raid. And if even one person decided to leave the guild, you were sent spiraling back to square one.
Also, remember the Aqual Quintessence? Needing at least seven people to be honored with the Hydraxian Waterlords so they could douse the runes to summon Executus and Ragnaros. That was a fun mechanic, wasn't it? Not tedious in the slightest. /s

Then BC could be summed up with "Hey! We heard you like attunements. So we put attunements in your attunements so you can attune while you attune!". There were so many hoops to jump through in BC, it's a wonder anyone managed to progress past Karazhan, let alone the other raids. And don't even get me started on Sunwell.

Again. Please take off those rose tinted goggles. They are making you blind as well as stupid.

Yes it was. Why? Because it was rewarding and needed you to actually do something for a raid. Now the only thing you need to do is get gear and buy bufffood. That's literally nothing compared to Classic or TBC. It's just dull and boring.

And no, they don't make me blind or stupid. I know how great raiding was back in Classic and TBC cause I actually did it. I farmed my cloak for Nefarian, I did the MC attunement, Onyxia attunement, Naxxramas attunement, every attunement in TBC and it was a million times more entertaining and enticing than raiding is now.

[Hexxidecimal]

Yes it was. Why? Because it was rewarding and needed you to actually do something for a raid. Now the only thing you need to do is get gear and buy bufffood. That's literally nothing compared to Classic or TBC. It's just dull and boring.

And no, they don't make me blind or stupid. I know how great raiding was back in Classic and TBC cause I actually did it. I farmed my cloak for Nefarian, I did the MC attunement, Onyxia attunement, Naxxramas attunement, every attunement in TBC and it was a million times more entertaining and enticing than raiding is now.

Yeah I actually liked attunments. Well some of them. Epic quests that were a little grindy (no where near as bad as the god damn legendary ring/cloack) but felt pretty epic when you completed them. Like your toon was truly preparing to battle some epic monsters!

The only real issue I had with original raiding was indeed the size. Not that 40 people were unwieldy within actual combat but just the preciseness of your group make up and needing one of every class etc etc.

[Darkguyver2020]

Yes it was. Why? Because it was rewarding and needed you to actually do something for a raid. Now the only thing you need to do is get gear and buy bufffood. That's literally nothing compared to Classic or TBC. It's just dull and boring.

And no, they don't make me blind or stupid. I know how great raiding was back in Classic and TBC cause I actually did it. I farmed my cloak for Nefarian, I did the MC attunement, Onyxia attunement, Naxxramas attunement, every attunement in TBC and it was a million times more entertaining and enticing than raiding is now.

It was maddening. Unless you had 39 (24 in BC) dedicated raiders, you were pretty much screwed when it came to progression. The majority of your time would be spent farming the old raids in a vain attempt to progress to the next one. If one person has to leave your core group, you were pretty much boned until you found a replacement.
Fuck that. I am never going back to those terrible times. Wrath was when raiding actually became tolerable.

[Deleted]

I can only say, if raiding still required the mad amount of extra resources from outside raids as it did in classic wow and early bc I would not be playing the game anymore today. I'm not impressed by "effort" that is only a timesink and nothing else. There has to be some fun component in it if it's something that takes the majority of my play time.

[Nyel]

I can only say, if raiding still required the mad amount of extra resources from outside raids as it did in classic wow and early bc I would not be playing the game anymore today. I'm not impressed by "effort" that is only a timesink and nothing else. There has to be some fun component in it if it's something that takes the majority of my play time.

Is Heroic Mode / Mythic Mode the so called "fun component"? To do a dungeon in a total of 4 difficulties? I think that's a horrible design choice. I'd rather have dungeons with increasing difficulty instead of the same dungeon / raid with a trazillion difficulties.

Classic raiding was exhausting, yes. But in TBC it became great due to the reduced amount of players you needed for a raid.

Actually, you never ever could experience more and better raid content than in TBC:

Karazhan -> Gruul -> Maghteridon --> SSC --> TK --> ZA --> MH --> BT --> Sunwell

Karazhan was even great in 2.4, the last TBC patch. Who the f*ck would go to Highmaul in 7.2 or even in 7.1, after BRF was released? Nobody. Who was doing MSV, HoF or TOF after SoO came out? Nobody. With the recent raid design Blizzard is destroying all work they put in earlier tiers when they're releasing a new one.

Nighthold will kill EN, the 7.2 raid will kill Nighthold etc. - with every raid patch Blizzard annulls every raid content before that. They started with this in Cataclysm and it totally doesn't work anymore.

[Deleted]

Is Heroic Mode / Mythic Mode the so called "fun component"?

For me? Yes.

To do a dungeon in a total of 4 difficulties? I think that's a horrible design choice. I'd rather have dungeons with increasing difficulty instead of the same dungeon / raid with a trazillion difficulties.

I somewhat agree, but the problem is not there being 4 difficulties existing, the problem is requiring a single players to run all of them. I understand that
the developers can't just design the game specifically for me. But they can design it for a player like me in mind too.

Classic raiding was exhausting, yes. But in TBC it became great due to the reduced amount of players you needed for a raid.

Actually, you never ever could experience more and better raid content than in TBC:

Karazhan -> Gruul -> Maghteridon --> SSC --> TK --> ZA --> MH --> BT --> Sunwell

Karazhan was even great in 2.4, the last TBC patch. Who the f*ck would go to Highmaul in 7.2 or even in 7.1, after BRF was released? Nobody. Who was doing MSV, HoF or TOF after SoO came out? Nobody. With the recent raid design Blizzard is destroying all work they put in earlier tiers when they're releasing a new one.

I loved the raids in TBC, but early TBC was a mess too with raids, stacking flask, elixirs, multiple potions per fight and other consumables. It got much better though eventually. And Karazhan was always an outlier since after a while you could outgear it with afk-able battle ground gear - which a lot of people did back then. Not to mention some of the crafted gear that was better than stuff you could get before black temple.

Nighthold will kill EN, the 7.2 raid will kill Nighthold etc. - with every raid patch Blizzard annulls every raid content before that. They started with this in Cataclysm and it totally doesn't work anymore.

No, they started this in the burning crusade. Nobody did tempest keep/ssc anymore after doing hyjal and bt. Magtheridon also was basically always skipped. In many cases Zul'Aman (and the honor badge gear that got upgraded when the instance came out) was much better itemized than SSC and TK and made them pretty pointless too.


Also there is a reason for these added catch up mechanics. It caused problems both to progressed guilds that had to redo trivial content for 1-2 players in the raid - not a thing people liked to do or poach people from slightly less progressed guilds than they are, something that could cripple and kill intermediate guilds. Unless you were a heavy guild hopper without a concience or the extreme exception of a guild of mostly people that know each other the situation was hardly ideal.

[Defend]

What did they delay? They haven't posted the raid schedule yet. They've also said several times they thought HM and BRF were released too close to each other...

Read, my other, posts, on, this, subject, please.

[meroko]

Even when I'm taking them off raiding in Classic and TBC was superior to raiding now (not in terms of boss mechanics but in terms of design and progression). Nothing comes close to the TBC raid system.

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It did not work very well. In MoP yes but the delay was much shorter than in WoD. In WoD it did not work. And no, this kind of raid-launch-system is worse than what they had in TBC, Lich King or Cataclysm.

Yes because attunements and having to progress all over again if someone suddenly left your guild was way better than a delayed release structure. Please. Also, one thing I will agree is that Cata started off just right, you had 3 raids, and PLENTY of time to get them done before Firelands, I wish they would've stayed with that structure and just let everything out up front, but give a longer content wait like Firelands was. Of course the rest of Cata was a disaster.