1. #8501
    Deleted
    i dont understand y a caster would be frontline except for heal. pls explain, cuz i just cant imagine this niche, u r all so desperately searching.

    but pls revamp exo to dispel buffs (5.3 1day, to the ground nerf...again, 4 1day ret reigned surpreme:)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Id like to point out that in WoD Ret was pretty much range in Plate, i could solo hunters and mages without ever touching them with my melee swings. So will it be a really faaaaar stretch to make Shocko-din a viable 2nd dps spec?
    MoP, Cata ret was semi-ranged 2, and u still r able to "solo" range classes :D

    i want HoW, Exo (which r the only pruned ranged spells) back 2 btw, but not in trade 4 JV
    Last edited by mmocdfc202a8dc; 2016-08-23 at 12:13 AM.

  2. #8502
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    Id like to point out that in WoD Ret was pretty much range in Plate, i could solo hunters and mages without ever touching them with my melee swings. So will it be a really faaaaar stretch to make Shocko-din a viable 2nd dps spec?
    No it really wouldnt. I could easily see them incorporating old abilities like exo and such into it as well. Im not sure though, Id love to see an attempt made at least, but it will be a really long time before anyone gets a fourth spec aside from warriors (gladiator might come back}, so no point in really worrying about it now.

  3. #8503
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    but it will be a really long time before anyone gets a fourth spec aside from warriors.
    itz not gonna happen. but if, warriors should get a range spec, cuz y not :D

  4. #8504
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    We don't need a Pally version of the gladiator spec. It didn't really work well for them. I'd rather they worry about Two handed Ret


    Back on topic: On Live my Haste is roughly 30% but most of my gear is Haste and mastery so I kinda cheated


    Dunno if that will work in Legion but I can say Haste makes it feel more tolerable. Still begging for Pursuit of Justice though.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  5. #8505
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenging Wrath View Post
    itz not gonna happen. but if, warriors should get a range spec, cuz y not
    It 99.999999% won't happen, but the idea is cool none the less.

  6. #8506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    It 99.999999% won't happen, but the idea is cool none the less.
    i guess u would love a warrior heal spec 2, right?

  7. #8507
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenging Wrath View Post
    i guess u would love a warrior heal spec 2, right?
    They already had a healing spec in MOP, 2nd breath (or w/e it was called, not sure about the name)

    Besides warriors having a healing spec thats a bit big leap away from Paladin having a 2nd dps spec, no ) ?

  8. #8508
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    They already had a healing spec in MOP, 2nd breath (or w/e it was called, not sure about the name)

    Besides warriors having a healing spec thats a bit big leap away from Paladin having a 2nd dps spec, no ) ?
    second wind

  9. #8509
    Quote Originally Posted by Snegovik View Post
    They already had a healing spec in MOP, 2nd breath (or w/e it was called, not sure about the name)

    Besides warriors having a healing spec thats a bit big leap away from Paladin having a 2nd dps spec, no ) ?
    Second wind. That thing was fucking stupid. It was really hard to get them down past 15% hp or whatever it was with that running. They nerfed it eventually, but it was dumb.

    And yeah, paladins getting a 2nd dps spec is a lot different than warriors getting a healing spec.

    @Aeluron Lightsong In pve, double steed is really nice. Shit, having it baseline is nice. I dont see why we would need poj now. Theres nothing you cant get out of with Cavalier. In pvp thats obviously different, but Im assuming were discussing pve. Theres no issue with having a 6 second speed boost (cavalier makes steed 6 seconds if you use it back to back} that increases movement speed by 100%. You might not like the spell, but in pve its not bad, at least not anymore now that we have it baseline and can talent for double steed whenever theres a movement heavy fight.

    As for the haste, yeah, around that amount of haste it feels pretty good. Im assuming crit/mastery is going to be the optimal set up, but Id grab haste on the side either way.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-08-23 at 01:09 AM.

  10. #8510
    It's nice but its not nice enough. Soon as ya hit constant movement fight you will suffer immensely even with Cavalier. Main reason is the stupid charge system. If both recharged independently of another then ye maybe it would have been nice. Or maybe 2charges and 30sec CD instead of 45. Tho I guess it will work out with Legendary boots in the end.

  11. #8511
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    It's nice but its not nice enough. Soon as ya hit constant movement fight you will suffer immensely even with Cavalier. Main reason is the stupid charge system. If both recharged independently of another then ye maybe it would have been nice. Or maybe 2charges and 30sec CD instead of 45. Tho I guess it will work out with Legendary boots in the end.
    The only constant movement fight that comes to mind is Ilgynoth and thats about it. There shouldnt be any trouble with any of the other bosses really. The spider boss requires some movement as well but nothing that DS cant solve. There arent that many constant movement fights, at least not in EM. Theres one or two in NH, but really there shouldnt be too much trouble with them.

    Also, if your in an organised raiding guild you will most likely be moving to the closest tentacle thing as ret so you dont even have to go that far. Either way, its nice enough. DKs dont have as much mobility as we do now and even they manage to deal with it.

    Ive had to go ret while raid testing at times due to too many healers or healers from our other raid teams coming in to test and honestly I didnt have that many issues with getting to shit. Target swapping with judgement was my main issue on fights like Il and the spider queen thing.

    Do keep in mind they said any class with high mobility will be doing less damage then others with less mobility. So honestly, with everything in mind, Id much rather we stay on the lower end because damage is really the only thing a melee brings to a raid as we discussed in the other forum and I wouldnt want to lose any because of mobility.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-08-23 at 01:38 AM.

  12. #8512
    I think at this point we should continue to gather numbers to confirm wether or not ret is performing to par with the rest of the classes (which may mean that blizz is overestimating how much dps a player can reasonably get out of their current skill gap mechanics). History, beta playing, and my personal experience on live demonstrates this, but the artifact and legendaries shouldn't "balance" this; they have admitted that they tried to balance everything independantly.

    So I say this, our mastery isnt strong enough. Judgement and the mastery mechanic needs to change. Ive pitched ideas in the past that have been either dismissed.ignored here or shut down on the blizz forumns. but the least i can say is this; a judgement debuff is probably not the best way to make the ret rotation interesting. I've suggested before making judgement a pseudo execution sentence instead, and therefore making mastery a trait that simultaneously improved the baseline dmg of "execution sentence" and the current improvement to holy power consumers, without the requirement of a judgement debuff (so our aoe is simultaneously better with our templars verdict)

    The current challenge to us is this: how do we make judgement interesting? (their current implementation indicates they havent put much thought into it, because at early game you get judgement before crusader strike or your specialization traits....WHY?! b/c judgement w/out mastery is irellevent, which i think is the heart of the probelem) most of their effort has been in demon hunters, making demonology locks distinct, and making it up to survival for its failure in warlords. ...but judgement and the RETarded greater blessings?

    at the least for the first tier of talents, it should be a disinguished way in which we do aoe dmg; all revolving around how we cleave aoe dmg: a holy immolation aura, but does increased damage on whoever we single tagret (passive), a meteor judgement (that explodes a % of its dmg to enemies around the primary target) or consecration, where we can imitate prot and/or unholy dks and cleave the crap out of enemies on consecrated ground with crusader strike. (and yes, perhaps scrap the other cleaving talents, but its not like we are doing a lot of aoe dmg atm anyway)
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2016-08-23 at 10:00 AM.

  13. #8513
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebhil View Post
    I think at this point we should continue to gather numbers to confirm wether or not ret is performing to par with the rest of the classes (which may mean that blizz is overestimating how much dps a player can reasonably get out of their current skill gap mechanics). History, beta playing, and my personal experience on live demonstrates this, but the artifact and legendaries shouldn't "balance" this; they have admitted that they tried to balance everything independantly.

    So I say this, our mastery isnt strong enough. Judgement and the mastery mechanic needs to change. Ive pitched ideas in the past that have been either dismissed.ignored here or shut down on the blizz forumns. but the least i can say is this; a judgement debuff is probably not the best way to make the ret rotation interesting. I've suggested before making judgement a pseudo execution sentence instead, and therefore making mastery a trait that simultaneously improved the baseline dmg of "execution sentence" and the current improvement to holy power consumers, without the requirement of a judgement debuff (so our aoe is simultaneously better with our templars verdict)

    The current challenge to us is this: how do we make judgement interesting? (their current implementation indicates they havent put much thought into it, because at early game you get judgement before crusader strike or your specialization traits....WHY?! b/c judgement w/out mastery is irellevent, which i think is the heart of the probelem)
    While I wouldn't mind some mechanical changes to ret, it's incredibly unlikely that anything but numbers will change this close to release. If something is found to be truly broken concerning our mechanics, than we might see some changes between EN and Nighthold, but once again, I think that's incredibly unlikely.

    Concerning our numbers, all the good guilds seem to either have their logs private for raid testing, or they don't have logs with a ret. I've looked through about 100 Ursoc logs, and every time I saw a ret they were doing something grossly wrong with the spec. Either wrong talents, wrong potion, wrong legendary, no on use trinket or all of the above in many cases. Despite that, some rets I saw were in the top 3 in their raids, some were middle of the pack and some were bottom. It's hard to say how optimally their fellow raiders were doing though. If anyone has some ret logs from beta where it's easy to verify that all players involved are actually good, I'd be interested in seeing that.

    Anecdotally, I can say that in all my recent testing I can count on one hand the number of pulls where I was not top dps; and on bosses I'm usually about ~40-45%% of the group's damage in dungeons. At 847 ilvl I can sustain about 280k dps indefinitely on a dummy, and if I get a good Crusade with lust I can do 500-600k for the first minute of a boss fight. That certainly feels good to me, but without consistent and verifiable accurate data I have no way of knowing if that's actually good relative to equal skilled and geared players. *shrugs*

  14. #8514
    I appreciate that laurcrus (especially when i dont have access to the beta and can only reference what other people have shown). That kind of disparity in results definitely calls upon us to do as much data-logging as possible to distinguish the variables. At the very least im inclined to think the defensive properties of kings and wisdom should be made baseline and blessing of might revamped into some other sort of offensive utility or melded into our personal rotation; that way our dps output isnt so dependent on other players survival

    I had a terrible time leveling and 1st tier raiding in cataclysm and mists, and in warlords it was the first time I didnt get bothered much with leveling in quite a while (raids didnt matter until i got set bonuses). legion doesnt change my expectations on how the begining will turn out; I assume there will be some sort of fix in the first major patch concerning ret, but what it would entail im unsure, but i wouldnt be surprised by a revamp of mastery like cataclysm had.

  15. #8515
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    The only constant movement fight that comes to mind is Ilgynoth and thats about it. There shouldnt be any trouble with any of the other bosses really. The spider boss requires some movement as well but nothing that DS cant solve. There arent that many constant movement fights, at least not in EM. Theres one or two in NH, but really there shouldnt be too much trouble with them.

    Also, if your in an organised raiding guild you will most likely be moving to the closest tentacle thing as ret so you dont even have to go that far. Either way, its nice enough. DKs dont have as much mobility as we do now and even they manage to deal with it.

    Ive had to go ret while raid testing at times due to too many healers or healers from our other raid teams coming in to test and honestly I didnt have that many issues with getting to shit. Target swapping with judgement was my main issue on fights like Il and the spider queen thing.

    Do keep in mind they said any class with high mobility will be doing less damage then others with less mobility. So honestly, with everything in mind, Id much rather we stay on the lower end because damage is really the only thing a melee brings to a raid as we discussed in the other forum and I wouldnt want to lose any because of mobility.
    It's still a dumb philosophy. Low mobility=more damage. They tried a similar thing with us Rets but in D3 ala Crusaders. It didn't work, they eventually caved after feedback and changed their mind.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  16. #8516
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It's still a dumb philosophy. Low mobility=more damage. They tried a similar thing with us Rets but in D3 ala Crusaders. It didn't work, they eventually caved after feedback and changed their mind.
    but this is a different team. a team much more experienced. a team of the most skilled. a team superior to all others. They don´t have to acknowledge anyone. They don't have to listen. They cannot fail. They are eternal.

  17. #8517
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It's still a dumb philosophy. Low mobility=more damage. They tried a similar thing with us Rets but in D3 ala Crusaders. It didn't work, they eventually caved after feedback and changed their mind.
    Well its not just us getting that treatment. Im not sure I like that philosophy either, but thats how it is this time around. Any class with high mobility does less damage and vice versa. I dont really like it but at the same time Im just going to wait and see where it ends up.

  18. #8518
    High mobility = low damage

    which is exactly why DH, Rogues, and Mages are currently the best DPS classes

  19. #8519
    I am Murloc! DrMcNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
    High mobility = low damage

    which is exactly why DH, Rogues, and Mages are currently the best DPS classes
    Wahahaha. Oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. WAHHHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAH

  20. #8520
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoBisque View Post
    High mobility = low damage

    which is exactly why DH, Rogues, and Mages are currently the best DPS classes
    a fine piece of satire sir. I toast to you with with a chilled glas of gin.

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