[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[TomatoBisque]

Wahahaha. Oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. WAHHHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAH

I think you missed the joke

[Deleted]

a fine piece of satire sir. I toast to you with with a chilled glas of gin.

Aye, I toast to you guys as well! I do not get the sucidial approach that is common in our paladin community, when you suggest something and they start crying "no we should not be that strong, we are hybrids, we are not meant to be top dps, we need to loose something in return etc." it feels like we either have guys who main other classes here who got nothing else to do, or the self inflicting of pain is strong within our spec ^^ sorry guys, but that's what I've noticed across all the boards discussing Ret! Even though we have never been among top specs in dps neither in pve nor in pvp which is a pity!

PS: There is no such thing as a hybrid class in my opinion, because there is no in between anymore since you can not build into the talent tree of prot or holy anymore. Those who played this game long enough know what I am trying to say. Not that I mean it was great and in the past, but clearly offered more depth than the lackluster RET we've got right now!

[Taeldorian]

Aye, I toast to you guys as well! I do not get the sucidial approach that is common in our paladin community, when you suggest something and they start crying "no we should not be that strong, we are hybrids, we are not meant to be top dps, we need to loose something in return etc." it feels like we either have guys who main other classes here who got nothing else to do, or the self inflicting of pain is strong within our spec ^^ sorry guys, but that's what I've noticed across all the boards discussing Ret! Even though we have never been among top specs in dps neither in pve nor in pvp which is a pity!

PS: There is no such thing as a hybrid class in my opinion, because there is no in between anymore since you can not build into the talent tree of prot or holy anymore. Those who played this game long enough know what I am trying to say. Not that I mean it was great and in the past, but clearly offered more depth than the lackluster RET we've got right now!

I dont see anyone saying we shouldnt do as much damage as pure dps because were hybrids. I havent seen anyone mention that in here in a long time, so I have no idea what youre talking about. I dont really think anyone in here right now believes that, so again, I have no idea what youre talking about or where that even came from.

[Wrecktangle]

I dont see anyone saying we shouldnt do as much damage as pure dps because were hybrids. I havent seen anyone mention that in here in a long time, so I have no idea what youre talking about. I dont really think anyone in here right now believes that, so again, I have no idea what youre talking about or where that even came from.

I'm entirely too lazy to go fetch it, but there's actually a portion of Ret's playerbase that thinks we should be/are balanced being middle of the pack because "utility", despite numerous high value DPS "pures" having both higher DPS and more useful/powerful utility. I've definitely seen it echo'd here and on official forums rather frequently. I personally do not share this sentiment.

[Taeldorian]

I'm entirely too lazy to go fetch it, but there's actually a portion of Ret's playerbase that thinks we should be/are balanced being middle of the pack because "utility", despite numerous high value DPS "pures" having both higher DPS and more useful/powerful utility. I've definitely seen it echo'd here and on official forums rather frequently. I personally do not share this sentiment.

I probably didnt read their posts after seeing that then. Ever since Blizzard themselves said Hybrid balancing is no longer a thing I stopped believing it was a thing, like really anyone should.

They did call Ret support dps in a blue post for Legion though, so maybe thats something. We know that they think we have insanely good utility because of Greater Blessings and such even though thats obviously wrong. They may still think Rets niche is support.

Honestly though, I cant be sure. We are doing less Dps than the other melees right now, but there hasnt really been a balancing patch for beta in a while so they could easily tweak those numbers whenever they want. With that being said, Im not really sure where their intent lies for Ret. Nobody really can be until we actually get to the first tier of raiding, by then things should be where they want them to be and we can accurately judge everything.

Either way, I have no idea if they intend for ret to stay behind in terms of numbers or pull ahead. Some people seem to think we will get buffed later on and some think we wont. The only reason to bring a melee now is numbers, thats it. They no longer have utility, so if one melee is doing a lot less dps then the others, it wont be brought from my understanding.

[snackfeat]

Wasn't Gladiator one of their best DPS-specs for a while?


Is it really better with haste?
My problem is mostly that the spec feels bland; Judgment is the most interesting thing. The rest is just "Add 2 HP", "Add 1 HP" and "Spend 3 HP".
I wish we had something like Unholy.. That spec is amazing.

I know it's all subjective, but why is it that so many people find unholy to be so amazing? To me it feels like one of the most boring melee specs in the game now, next to arms warrior. It's basically a 3½ buttom spec, where you build stacks with festering strike and then pop them with scourge strike while dumping runic power on death coil, and then you use outbreak roughly every 30 seconds. Am I missing something, or how is this praised so much?

[Deleted]

They did call Ret support dps in a blue post for Legion though, so maybe thats something. We know that they think we have insanely good utility because of Greater Blessings and such even though thats obviously wrong. They may still think Rets niche is support.

That was a statement regarding Rets role in PvP. It was in the PvP forum if I remember correctly.

Otherwise I agree with many things you said in the last few posts. :>

[Taeldorian]

That was a statement regarding Rets role in PvP. It was in the PvP forum if I remember correctly.

Otherwise I agree with many things you said in the last few posts. :>

Oh was it? Thats somewhat good news I guess, didnt know it was in regards to that.




They did say in the interview that they are still balancing and most likely wont be done until the week before the first raid tier or the week of, so we still have some waiting to do regarding numbers, and as Ive said a million times over, numbers are the only thing melee bring now. So, hopefully ours arent bad by the time the first raid tier comes out.


@Kangodo I find unholy really boring. Idk how people like it honestly. Its just dumping runic power and using certain abilities on CD. Its not really all that fun, but thats subjective. I dont find the ret rotation bad honestly, it grew on me a bit these last few weeks. As long as we arent doing less damage than any other melee we will be taken. If we do as much damage as the other melees I cant see ret being an issue in terms of being brought to raids. And yes, imo it does get better with haste. The rotation speeds up a bit and things actually feel like they work, but its not the most fun rotation.

Either way, melees bring nothing but numbers now so as long as we bring good numbers theres no reason to not take a ret over any other melee. No idea why I keep saying this.

[Ryuji]

I dont see anyone saying we shouldnt do as much damage as pure dps because were hybrids. I havent seen anyone mention that in here in a long time, so I have no idea what youre talking about. I dont really think anyone in here right now believes that, so again, I have no idea what youre talking about or where that even came from.

It stems from pretty much Classic to now for the paladin community as a whole(not just MMO-C). The pre-patch nerfs of BC and Wrath hurt more than helped. Particularly for Wrath Ret where DS did pure holy damage(and was balanced around 80, not 70) and was hitting hard against level 70 folks. Blizz decided that pre-patch shenanigans was too much and made DS physical damage and tuned a few other things later on during Wrath's life-cycle(RIP Seal of Blood/Martyr suicides by heavy judgements) to make it more "in-line" even though it was just fine.

Queue Cataclysm where the holy power system came into play but only CS generated it and Zealotry on a 2 min. CD. During Cata's life-cycle, it got better and the mastery changed to not be horrible, where utility and survivability in both PvE and PvP were great, though Inquisition was still a terrible, terrible thing.

My point being: Since the beginning of seeing Ret be good at, well, anything, particularly PvP, a lot of paladin players fear getting over-nerfed so they say lower damage to make utility balanced with it.

I personally am not really enjoying Ret currently except in single-target situations or slight cleave. AoE feels god-awful and the rotation doesn't really change regardless of your talent choice which irks me, badly.

[Taeldorian]

@Ryuji Based on cleave/aoe, your rotation changes. You take Zeal and DH rather than fires and BoW which changes things quite a bit in terms of AoE. I do want those abilities buffed a bit, but I still am not sure what they want our niche to be. If they want it to be AoE then Zeal and DH need buffs, if they want it to be ST then our ST shit needs buffs, etc. Regardless though, our rotation does change when taking those talents. Its not significantly different though.

[OrcsRLame]

Concerning the fun side of things, I find Legion ret more or less as fun as WoD. If it wasn't for Crusade, it would definitely be on the less side of things. But goddamn is that fucker fun to hit. The ~1.3 million TVs every 2 seconds is just so fucking sick. I always get a little sad when Crusade ends though. I'm still waiting to get Divine Tempest. Wanna see how our AoE feels when DS is an increase on 2 targets.

[Ryuji]

@Ryuji Based on cleave/aoe, your rotation changes. You take Zeal and DH rather than fires and BoW which changes things quite a bit in terms of AoE. I do want those abilities buffed a bit, but I still am not sure what they want our niche to be. If they want it to be AoE then Zeal and DH need buffs, if they want it to be ST then our ST shit needs buffs, etc. Regardless though, our rotation does change when taking those talents. Its not significantly different though.

I guess what I mean is that there's no real procs to look for anymore. Even though is was super RNG in WoD, when you had Final Verdict + Divine Purpose, you had the potential to just go nuts and I guess that's what I miss was being able to watch for procs. With the current style it feels like:

Build-spend-build-spend, keep judgement debuff on as much as possible. I've also been trying to get back into PvP so that might also be it. When trying to catch up to anyone, all I can do is bonk stuff with Judgement, pony and Hand of just-got-dispelled.

Might just go Prot PvP :P

[Snegovik]

My main issue with a current Ret is lack or mobility or lack of decent range abilities (not talking about DPS per say, but HOJ is 10 yards...was this really necessary Blizzard? ). To me mobility = fun, being top DPS charts was never my priority as Ret, i assume majority of Rets here also don't slash wrists when we are not top 2 DPSers, since it was never really our niche of being a top dps, but i feel like we lost a big chunk of our lore with lose of our snare removal and very poor mobility. As long as i can Remb, Ret was one of the few melee in game who was very hard to be snared/slowed down, still can be kited, but def not what it is now =(

[DrMcNinja]

I think you missed the joke

I didn't. I think you missed my reference.

[Taeldorian]

I guess what I mean is that there's no real procs to look for anymore. Even though is was super RNG in WoD, when you had Final Verdict + Divine Purpose, you had the potential to just go nuts and I guess that's what I miss was being able to watch for procs. With the current style it feels like:

Build-spend-build-spend, keep judgement debuff on as much as possible. I've also been trying to get back into PvP so that might also be it. When trying to catch up to anyone, all I can do is bonk stuff with Judgement, pony and Hand of just-got-dispelled.

Might just go Prot PvP :P

Well you know me Im sure, Ive advocated for prot pvp in here and everywhere else for a while. Its insanely fun and even one of the two top ret pvpers that I know went prot and seems to be enjoying it. Aveng is who Im talking about here and he enjoyed it a lot, the comp he played in was also really good and had a lot of uses for prot.

Now, in terms of what your talking about, Im not sure if you are talking about ret pvp or pve but for ret pve the rotation changes when you take Zeal and DH for AoE. Its pretty different when compared to the single target rotation which consists of fires and BoW.

In terms of pvp, theres no reason to really switch talents and no reason to really take zeal or DH, so in terms of pvp nothing will change there. I havent played ret pvp in a while since I much prefer prot now.

Now, if you want procs, Id just take Divine purpose. In pve Ive been having a lot of fun with it, but theres no warning when you get a proc so you need to have a weakaura for it. Ive gotten back to back TV procs and its actually been insane at times. If you already have a lot of haste its basically the only viable talent in that tier.

[OrcsRLame]

Well you know me Im sure, Ive advocated for prot pvp in here and everywhere else for a while. Its insanely fun and even one of the two top ret pvpers that I know went prot and seems to be enjoying it. Aveng is who Im talking about here and he enjoyed it a lot, the comp he played in was also really good and had a lot of uses for prot.

Now, in terms of what your talking about, Im not sure if you are talking about ret pvp or pve but for ret pve the rotation changes when you take Zeal and DH for AoE. Its pretty different when compared to the single target rotation which consists of fires and BoW.

In terms of pvp, theres no reason to really switch talents and no reason to really take zeal or DH, so in terms of pvp nothing will change there. I havent played ret pvp in a while since I much prefer prot now.

Now, if you want procs, Id just take Divine purpose. In pve Ive been having a lot of fun with it, but theres no warning when you get a proc so you need to have a weakaura for it. Ive gotten back to back TV procs and its actually been insane at times. If you already have a lot of haste its basically the only viable talent in that tier.

In pve Divine Purpose is worthless. Crusade is better at 100, and astronomically better at 110. Sure, the procs are fun and all, but it's just not worth it from the numbers side of things.

[Taeldorian]

In pve Divine Purpose is worthless. Crusade is better at 100, and astronomically better at 110. Sure, the procs are fun and all, but it's just not worth it from the numbers side of things.

If you have a lot of haste, that makes half of Crusade worthless. Eventually we will get to a point where we have a lot of haste and at that point Crusade doesnt seem better than Dp at all. It might be, Im not sure since I dont have that much haste on beta so I just take Crusade, but I cant see it being better when half of it becomes worthless.

Im not really sure though honestly. I know Crusade is better overall at lower haste levels, but at the soft cap I dont think its worth it. Im still not sure though, Im not a theorycrafter and I know haste isnt the best stat out there, so it will be a lot better for a while anyway.

[snackfeat]

My main issue with a current Ret is lack or mobility or lack of decent range abilities (not talking about DPS per say, but HOJ is 10 yards...was this really necessary Blizzard? ). To me mobility = fun, being top DPS charts was never my priority as Ret, i assume majority of Rets here also don't slash wrists when we are not top 2 DPSers, since it was never really our niche of being a top dps, but i feel like we lost a big chunk of our lore with lose of our snare removal and very poor mobility. As long as i can Remb, Ret was one of the few melee in game who was very hard to be snared/slowed down, still can be kited, but def not what it is now =(

If mobility is the most important for you in a melee class, then you are simply playing the wrong class. Ret have never been and never will be a very mobile class, so I'm not sure what you are expecting.

In pve Divine Purpose is worthless. Crusade is better at 100, and astronomically better at 110. Sure, the procs are fun and all, but it's just not worth it from the numbers side of things.

At 100, Crusade is only better than DP on very short fights, such as Zakuun and Reaver, and this is mainly due to our 2 set.

[OrcsRLame]

If you have a lot of haste, that makes half of Crusade worthless. Eventually we will get to a point where we have a lot of haste and at that point Crusade doesnt seem better than Dp at all. It might be, Im not sure since I dont have that much haste on beta so I just take Crusade, but I cant see it being better when half of it becomes worthless.

The GCD floor in Legion is 0.75 seconds. The haste from Crusade will never be worthless. Maybe in like 3rd raid tier if you have a haste proc trinket, then maybe during lust some of the haste will be wasted.

[Taeldorian]

The GCD floor in Legion is 0.75 seconds. The haste from Crusade will never be worthless. Maybe in like 3rd raid tier if you have a haste proc trinket, then maybe during lust some of the haste will be wasted.

That makes sense, yeah.