Does exclusivity make a better game? Gating content

[CaptainV]

4 Tiers of raiding prooved that exclusivity is "terrible" for WoW.

Id rather have 4 raids, than 4 tiers of raid any day, the issue lies in the fact that the more 1% everything needs to be the more blizzard needs to design everything around exactly that, 1% of the playerbase.

Leaving the remaining 99% unattended and uncared for, it was a massive mistake to even -think- that an entire expansion that lived on raiding alone would be a success.

So if WoD prooved anything, no, exclusivity is a TERRIBLE idea.

Id say however playing devils advocate that the problem lies in the fact that there are too many options on either side, blizzard themselves said this:

LFR is for people that just want to experience the raid at a lazymans pace and have IRL commitments.

Normal is for friends, family, casual raiders that want to play the game for fun.

Heroic is for gearing up elite raiders for the end game content, and is there for training raids to progress properly with hardcore effort.

Mythic is for the elite.


Thats, the problem.

You have 4 tiers of difficulty, catered to too many variables of people. It was -simpler- and -better- when there were only 2, tiers. One suited to people that play at a casual pace, and one suited to people that -want- to do the hardest content.


Because of that, the main content, world content, pvp content suffers as nearly -all- the content is being developed around 4 tiers of difficulty for both raiding AND Dungeon content.

Now to be fair blizzard has SORT of got this right in Legion in which certain dungeons can ONLY be done on Mythic difficulty, but its not quite the fix we need to make that content efficent again.

The reality is much simpler, we -need- progressive content in quantity, not quality. Having to do the SAME thing repeatedly on a higher difficulty is fucking, boring and most of us are DONE with that format.

Theres a reason most stick to Raidfinder or Normal, because most simply get burned out once they get past that, because even if you defeat the best bosses, your STILL doing the same fucking shit.

This is the issue, right, there.

And as a result, it needs to go, remove 4 tiers, go back to 2, stick, with 2.

And make them effectivly balanced for both parties, Casual for those that want to play at a relaxed rate with less focus on challenge, and Hardcore for those that actually -want- to get the best loot, gear and general bragging rights.

[A dot Ham]

First, what's that bad in players that barely play and barely participate in group content leaving? They have limited use as they put mats on the AH and serve as decor in the world - but if they don't raid, PvP etc. - in an organized way - they are basically useless to the rest of the players.

If such players leave due to WoW taking an unfavorable stance towards random grouping, I'd say it's a good thing overall. We can finally hope that for its last years, WoW can attract better players, that have no issues dedicating time towards the game and towards improving themselves to the point where they can participate in organized group content.

I would even say that it would be a great advertising move if 1-2 million casuals leave. Imagine all the people that would see this and go "FINALLY! Finally they are back to the roots and stomping the casual mindset. I can finally go back.", not to mention attracting the most important demographic, i.e. young players with lots of time.

As for that other affirmation, that people without the skill to experience raiding at the top level ask for things such as removal of convenience - you think they are insane? Once somebody asks for LFR to be dealt with, they can at least do Normal, as nobody ever wants to cut content from themselves. Even Normal, as easy as it might be, is a huge step up from LFR. I can recruit Normal players, I can't recruit LFR players outside very niche cases (older guy returned, no friends, did LFR cause they had nothing else to run, wants to return to real raiding etc.).

Yes dealing with things like convenience is risky. But it is worth it. WoW has only a few years ahead. It won't last forever. I'd rather see it go to basics for the last part of its life.

Yes shooting for MORE people to leave an MMO is definitely what they should be doing. Once again its truly great that you folks aren't developers.

Fucking brilliant!

[Deleted]

I know I'm quite alone with this, but I always loved TBCs way to gate content.

I liked the fact you HAD to kill the two previous end tier bosses before entering Black Temple/Hyjal. These days it's like whatever, there's no real progression.. The reason to do an entry raid is killed the moment a new instance is released, because there's always welfare epics to close the gap between freshly dinged characters and the next instance.

[Raelbo]

Yes, it does. You need to have a carrot attached to the stick to entice mediocre players to aspire to get better.

I don't see any need to entice mediocre players to get better. It's a computer game. It's meant to be fun and not everyone wants to spend their time trying to beat an impossible challenge, so hiding the things those players would find fun inside exclusive content is a bad idea.

Exclusive content works because it gives those players who want to challenge themselves something to work on. Exclusive content should be something that gives them a sense of satisfaction beating it because it is hard, not because it is exclusive.

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@kinneer

You don't understand.

Honestly, I don't understand either:

I didn't step in a raid because i have zero motivation and immersion, because i already have access to everything. (only not item level)

You have no reason to do real raiding, because all your raiding needs are catered to in LFR. So you don't do real raiding. So where exactly is the problem?

I wish all the world's problems were this easy to solve....

[Deleted]

Exclusivity 'does' make a better game, anything somebody worked towards and got something cooler over most other players adds to the competitiveness and prestige. It also adds awe, so somebody will see you with it, and say "woah, thats sweet, how you got it?" then you tell him, now he will try get it. The only snowflakes here are entitled snowflakes with their own barriers called "life" and are bothered by it.

[Sansnom]

You don't understand.
I like to be told i am a piece of shit. I didn't step in a normal raid in WoD because the game (Blizzard) didn't tell me "you are a piece of shit, step it up boy".
I have transmogs, i have epics, i have access to ALL raids in LFR. Blizzard is like those rich parents trying too hard for their child to love them. "Please love me my dear child, we will do anything for you".

I think it is you who do not understand. What you do and what you like only matters to you. Not to others. I neither asked nor care what you like and enjoy.

You are of the view that your way is the proper way. That you like being told "You are a piece of shit and step it up boy" should mean other should as well.

Not everyone is into SM, <can't believe I need to use that world here>.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Except then you have the problem of unnecessarily restricting other players from being able to do things their way. While I have no problem with protecting stupid players from themselves to a certain extent, I do have an issue with when doing so negatively impacts other players.

How exactly is it negatively impacting other players? It is restricting all players to a reasonable limit. Raid loot lockouts are weekly, but they could just as easily be daily. If raid loot lockouts were daily, it is obvious that some people would take advantage of that fact and raid every single day until they finished progression. Why is it reasonable to limit their raid loot lockout but not limit the dailies?

This is why I blame them for the massively flawed system, because they already have other systems in place designed specifically to avoid burnout being the most efficient route. They had sufficient information to make a better system, they just failed to do so.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Exactly, want an "easy" epic go do a heroic TBC dungeon, and by the end of TBC "easy" epics were raining from the sky especially when Magisters Terrace was released..

Call those epics easy I guess... but those dungeons, even HMgt were harder than heroics are today. Sorry mate. Kind've a dishonest comparison.

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They was good enough for people to do kara in and get more epic gear, since many people did it. You can move the goal post all you wish but easy epics have been in the game since TBC and buying runs has been in since WoW released.

Buying runs aside ... its funny how you always use the "only 1% of players see the content!!!" argument while then later using the "everyone was getting these easy epics from raids!" argument after it. Seems like you just say these things when its convenient I guess.

[grexly75]

Call those epics easy I guess... but those dungeons, even HMgt were harder than heroics are today. Sorry mate. Kind've a dishonest comparison.

Compared to the raids of the day the epics from the dungeons were easier to come by..

[HeedmySpeed]

As with many things: Only in moderation.

What I dislike more than anything is when they remove the hability to actually DO a specific part of content.

-Challenge Modes
-Old Kalimdor + EK (c'mon we have caverns of time let us access it already)
-Legendary Questlines

Maybe remove some of the rewards, but the whole thing? Blegh. After too much, players start to question if it's worth it to play the game -_-

The team would have to rebalance Challenge Modes every expansion which would be difficult to recreate the level of difficulty.

Old content gets updated. I don't get the fuss here. WoW is suppose to be an RPG with a persistent world. Taking more of that away with portals and time machines makes this game feel more like a game and not a fantasy world.

Legendary questlines seem like a big lore/casual activity to take a way. I don't think they should touch them either. Not like they're prestigious anyways.

[Pony Soldier]

Eh, I don't know. On one side the idea is understandable. I can understand you don't just want any random Joe Schmo going in a raid where he has no idea what he's doing and completely sucks balls at the game and he's getting things that usually only the high skilled players get but then on the other side that exclusive content will never be seen or experienced by A LOT of people so what would be the point in working so hard on something that will only be seen by a handful of people? Just seems pointless to me, I don't know.

I just think the whole idea of feeling special in this game because you have an item that not a lot of people have or maybe no one at all is just kind of stupid but that's me. To me it's just like ok...good for you.

[Lane]

Exclusivity (in this context) is generally immersion breaking for me. There's nothing like a tedious grind to tear away any feelings of adventure.

Unlike most sentiment I read on forums, "achievement" in such situations has the exact opposite effect on me. I don't feel accomplished or like I've earned something. My first thought is typically, "Thank gods that's over, now I can finally move on to something else." I guess it's the difference between feeling like you've crossed the finish line of a marathon or completed an 80-hour work week with no paid overtime. When it comes to game grinds I always feel the latter and almost never the former.

What other people have or don't have never bothers me for the most part. When I see someone with something exclusive I almost never think, "Wow, that person is really skilled/dedicated (or whatever)." Honestly, there isn't much in WoW that qualifies for either, which is probably not a popular opinion. :P

[Deleted]

In the US, sex is taboo to talk about, yet it surrounds us everywhere, we all think of it quite alot.

In MMOs, feeling like you are better than others due to getting loot they dont have is taboo, nobody wants to admit that this is less about loot but rather a feeling of superiority. You can veil it in some shitty comparison to other genres, but this has nothing to do with game design. No CoD, Mario Kart, Pokemon, Gran Turismo players have ever given a single fuck what others have or have not. Players in WoW and other MMOs are self centered and want their shit. They want a game where they got it, and you dont. Because if you got it, and they got it, then nobody got it. "If everyone has it, then nobody has it". This is very important to understand, and even moreso, to admit.

When someone says "epics used to feel more epic!" what they are actually is "I got it and very few had it on my server, i felt special!".

Nobody wants to admit any of this, because it sounds nerdy as hell, even by the standards of nerdiness considering we are takling about a fantasy MMO game with dragons and elves. Its one thing to play a video game about killing dragons, its another to deride personal pleasure from that you might lack in real life, ie sense of accomplishment. Sitting in your room, working a dead end job or barely taking your education seriously playing WoW, you are depraved of affection, attention and any confidence, virtual loot can help that.


And this is what gating is about, people want a game that is gated so that they get their shit and obviously everyone who is better than them, but everyone under them gets nothing. Aka they just want to make the cut, because they dont want to be denied it, and everyone beneath them can go "QQ" and "L2P". This is why nobody gives a shit in Call of Duty, Mario Kart, pokemon or a fighting game, or a racing game if you unlock the same stuff i unlock, because there is no emotional attachment there, there is no expectation that the game's job is to make me feel special.


The more you want gating, the more you crave this game to provide you with the feelings you should strive for in your real life. Because you are willing to invest time in getting what others dont. You have that extra time because nothing else is really going in your life. A guy with a girlfriend and a few friends does not deserve the same shit you do, because you wont waste time on that stuff, you will piss in a bottle and raid for hours to prove how depraved you are off attention and respect.


You are asking the wrong question, exclusivity makes the players willing to forego life feel special even for a brief moment. Its not about the game, its about the feels.

[Deleted]

I know I'm quite alone with this, but I always loved TBCs way to gate content.

Pfff, the quests were nice, there was a lot of story that made it fun, but my guild was forever stuck at Kael'thas. Our weeks were like: day 1: farm everything up to TK 3/4 and the other 3 raid nights were constant wipes on Kael... By the time they removed the attunements I was so burned out I quit the game for a while. So yeah, no thanks xD the way it is now is just fine.

[Jibjub]

Exclusivity makes literally EVERYTHING better. It's human nature.

[cFortyfive]

In the US, sex is taboo to talk about, yet it surrounds us everywhere, we all think of it quite alot.
shitty comparison

Well at least you found a way to surpass them all.

[Perkunas]

You weren't there, I'm guessing, so you don't know how much shit Thott was talking, frankly. It was absolute rubbish. EQ and DAoC were pretty bug-free on everything but the highest-end progression content - obvs. if that was what you were doing then...

Raiding Cleric on Fennin Ro. I quit playing hardcore during PoP because each guild I was in was collapsing over the keying process being so annoying(which is why BC's attunements were fun for me in comparison). I think it was the Plane of Storms... Don't quote me that was like 14 years ago and most of EQ was a caffeine-fueled nightmare for me. The design choices alone were terrible. Fucking Death Touch, complete heal chains, staring at your spellbook to regen... I still have nightmares and I don't know how I stuck it out for so long. There were bugs that I recall even when you weren't bleeding edge, but I think the biggest ones were primarily the untested content and the things they put in place for events that they never figured were going to happen Sleeper... Jesus Christ, they despawned him because a zerg was actually doing what was supposed to be impossible and THEN when they respawned everything else apologized and when they killed him he had no loot because he wasn't ever supposed to die. The design of him DT'ing everybody oh, fuck why am I thinking about this game. It's hurting my head.

It was a better game. I agree. It was also less buggy than EaB (holy shit flashback lol). It was not, at all, less buggy than EQ. That's a filthy lie. Esp. if you weren't raiding hardcore.

I actually enjoyed Earth and Beyond more. I had a better time raiding in E&B than EQ. I was a TT on "Drama" and we had a great community.

The combat in SWTOR on release was fine - slightly better than same-period WoW. So not sure what the complaint is here. But WoW evolved and SWTOR didn't. Still, SWTOR lost it's playerbase in months - not the years it took for this to be an issue.

Two words... Combat delay. There was a combat delay in the game that was reminiscent of Warhammer online's the best description was "it feels like combat in warcraft but you're wearing cement shoes"

Terrible delay where they prioritized animations over abilities for "cinematic combat" but I think they eventually fixed it months down the road.

I don't really disagree with any of this though I think you're too harsh on SWTOR - but yeah it directly copy from WoW.

I'm being lenient on SWTOR I tore them apart in the beta forums and a couple devs in our vent server. They basically lied flat-out and when called on it they had nothing to say.



[quote]EVE is a perfect example of my "something unique" point. It's a shit game, but there's nothing like it, so people play it because they want that peculiar experience (I did for a while).

I wasn't saying difficulty harpooned WildStar, at all. What I'm saying is difficulty and massive keying/gating/etc. doesn't attract people. Like, at all.

I don't think it attracts people so much as it gives you a reason to keep playing. It's the carrot on the stick but it never detracts from the journey. The problem is the game is so focused on capped content that it completely devalues everything that isn't current for most players. We level far too fast, items for the most part are worthless because of heirlooms, old dungeons are irrelevant beyond speeding through for XP. I remember getting my dagger from SM Lib and the off-hand from the quest and celebrating. I had that thing for like two weeks until I managed to get the Charstone Dirk from Princess. That's dead and gone now; purples from the newest raid or get the fuck out and that's a shame.

Considering you just admitted "my side of argument" for what I thought I was debating with you this was more of a fun chat about our MMO cred. I just get pissed when people blame Wildstar's failure on the content difficulty and keying when there were a million other worse reasons.

[thilicen]

Should be a gap between hardcore raiders/pvpers and the more casual players where the latter will have mostly blue gear but some epics here and there like in TBC. TBC nailed it imo.

[Osmeric]

I don't think it attracts people so much as it gives you a reason to keep playing.

For the great majority of players it gives them an incentive to quit immediately. And Blizzard's behavior tells us that their stats show this is just what happens.

[Dormie]

Comparing the old style of WoW to the success of Wildstar is a huuuge leap. They could have the exact same design infrastructure and still not be comparable. It's two different games, one is WoW, the other is just another MMO.