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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    whiles that may be funny, there's very little to feel - very different circumstances

    nightborne - isolation for 10k years
    v
    Blood elves - living in the world
    They kept to themselves for the most part, including warding off their land and cloaking it from Legion's eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    nightborne - corrupted source
    v
    Blood elves - dispersed source (later restored)

    nightborne - dependent on nightwell energy for food
    v
    Blood elf - addicted to arcane energy for feel good/and power

    nightborne - if they don't eat (i.e. drink the nightwell energy) they Wither into mindless being and then die (nightfallen state that ends in Withered), they have no choice
    v
    Blood elf - if they don't control themselves and absorb binge on too much arcane energy, they turn into addict fiends known as wretched, they choose.
    Yes, let's dwell on nuance in how each well works and ignore the glaring similarity between both cultures relying on magical wells. Very little to feel indeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    nightborne - night based elves
    v
    Blood elf - day based elves

    nightborne - night elven moon stars
    v
    Blood elf - sun based
    Can't say I've seen that many Nightborne focusing on starts or the night in the Legion footage I've seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    nightborne - continue the night elven arcane tradition
    v
    Blood elf - abandoned everything to do with Kal'dorei culture and started their own utopia as high elves before becoming blood elves
    You mean the arcane tradition that the Night Elves rejected for millennia and that wasn't ever really significant to majority of their race because most of them were nature attuned even before War of the Ancients? And the same arcane tradition that High Elves kept?


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    nightborne - leader felt she had no choice but to join the legion to save her people
    v
    Blood elf - leader joined the legion to grow powerful and glorious

    nightborne - the bad guys held the city, while the good guys were exiled
    v
    Blood elf - the good guys held the city, while the bad guys were elsewhere
    These are miniature differences and only recent political development. Nothing significant enough to cause them have "little to feel".


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    nightborne - night elf
    v
    Blood elf - high elf
    Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They are the same thing to Night Elves as High Elves are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    I just poin out that villains were villains in burning crusade because "they drop epics" story for bosses was an afterthought. Not like now
    Afterthought was when they got lucky. Vashj didn't even get that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    I'm curious - , I know I should probably be asking that concerning the highmountain which is the horde sub-race, but presenting proper arcane night elves has got to be interesting for them after the pathetic shen'dralar showing.

    disclaimer: yes I know it's the night elves turn for attention and they haven't had real focus for 14 years blah blah, and blood elves have gotten lots of attention and have demon hunters too, still, it would be interesting to see if any friendly overtures are made.

    So far it seems blood elves are been shown to hate even the highborne if cata is to go by, so it's not looking good - I know some of you are excited to see a nightborne vs blood elf in your classic dark elf v light elf, and seeing that the dark elves are on the alliance side and the light elves on the horde, it should make a previously 1-sided contest far more intriguing. But what if in another AU, there wasn't all this fighting - no elves picking sides in horde v alliance.

    Or lets forget hostilities, and try not to view everything in horde v alliance language, do you think the blood elves would like the nightborne? be jealous of them? want to cease their power? make friends with them? dominate them? or a mixture of all the above? The elven nations keep growing, now we have like 6 sub-groups, night elf, highborne, nightborne, high elf, blood elf, darkfallen - they'are beginning to be as varied as the various human nations or orc clans.

    Human nations/groups
    Stormwind, Gilneas, Arathor, Kul'tiras, Dalaran, Lordaeron, Alterac = 7

    Orcs:
    Frostwolf, Warsong, Dragonmaw, Blackrock, Shadowmoon, Shattered Hand, [Mag'har, half-orcs] = 6, 8


    Elves:
    althought they are split into two main groups:
    Elves of the night: night elf, highborne, nightborne:
    Elves of the day: Blood elf, High Elf, Darkfallen

    and it's split across both factions, it's still 6.

    What if the Elves united? and became a faction two of their own? What races amongst the horde and alliance do you reckon will join them?
    the blood elves are in Suramar looking ancient objects Highborne

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Rend Blackhand's Avatar
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    Blood Elves and Nightborne are both descended from the Highborne.

    The highborne in Suramar made a big shield over their city and created the nightwell.

    The highborne that followed Dath'Remar Sunstrider were exiled from Ashenvale by the new Kaldorei in charge. They sailed away and became high elves due to being so far away from the new well of eternity and world tree.

    The highborne that stayed loyal to Azshara became Naga and many became Satyr with Xavius.

    The final group of highborne were a tiny faction stuck inside dire mail.


    The Night Elves actually have the furthest connection to the Nightborne.

  4. #24
    With disdain, they see the abuse and corruption of the nightwell (sunwell) and Kael 2.0; added on top of night elves

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They kept to themselves for the most part, including warding off their land and cloaking it from Legion's eyes.
    they did, but they weren't isolated from the rest of the land or the world, - they did what the other night elven arcane groups did, 3k years later. both the highborne and nightborne were doing what the high elves eventually did when they formed Quel'thalas, but unlike the night elven groups, who were in isolation, the high elves were the only group of elves that were not.

    It's a massive difference, hence they go all day, and sun and light etc - whiles all the other night elven groups are still night based, moon and stars, Elune etc. it's just that one group didn't practice arcane (though they did nature) and the other groups continued using arcane in the style they were going on ( they had no Malfurion to reconnect them to nature ties). Lowborne night elves were no more nature inclined than highborne ones, it's more a case of highborne were more arcane intensive.. night elf society close to the first invasion had all turned to callously and intensely on the arcane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, let's dwell on nuance in how each well works and ignore the glaring similarity between both cultures relying on magical wells. Very little to feel indeed.
    You do appreciate that night elves and blood elves have far more in common than they do not genetically too. And as for highborne and blood elves, even more so culturally, but they are still also quite different. When you think nightborne you think highborne, you don't think blood elf. This is not a story about blood elves. It's showing you night elven arcane civilization at it's peak. This is what became of night elf night elves who didn't stop using the arcane and continued in their pre-sundering empire format. There was no pause of magic usage for spells here, there was no breaking away from anything to do with Kal'dorei culture. This is is Kal'dorei cultuture advanced in the arcane light, just like the hyjal group is Kal'dorei culture having taken the nature root. whereas the highborne represent kal'dorei aracne culture that survived but fell to depravity eventually.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Can't say I've seen that many Nightborne focusing on starts or the night in the Legion footage I've seen.
    You'll play it soon enough, I think the name nightborne kinda gives it away, but maybe being shrouded in perpetual night might convince you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    You mean the arcane tradition that the Night Elves rejected for millennia and that wasn't ever really significant to majority of their race because most of them were nature attuned even before War of the Ancients? And the same arcane tradition that High Elves kept?
    which night elves rejected that? The Kal'dorei? or the Quel'dorei? or the Moonguard? b/c as far as i know, only the Hyjal group rejected that. and no, most of them were not "Nature attuned" before the war of the ancients, they were all very much arcane attuned. Cenarius loved their spirit and taught them the ways of nature, but they've always had an arcane affinity. You read WotA, WC3 manual, and the night elves were arcane focused, the highborne amongst them were the some of the best and birghtest in that field. Arcane was not the only focus, but it is one all of them shared, some were nature attuned, some devoted to the priesthood.

    You don't understand night elves if you think their existence is not arcane based. The evidence is all over their history, even the Kal'dorei that stopped using the arcane for spells after the sundering for 10,000 years till very recently, continued to be suffused by the arcane power of the well. in fact they kept taking the well and the aracne influence that was very good for the land all over. They just didn't use it for spells - and we're told why. Not because they hated it, principally because they thought/felt using it would bring back the legion and end the world. They were right and wrong, mostly wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    These are miniature differences and only recent political development. Nothing significant enough to cause them have "little to feel".
    that's your opinion, maybe we should call a night elf or maybe a nightborne up and ask them huh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They are the same thing to Night Elves as High Elves are.
    Nightborne aren't kal'dorei dude, but they are night elves. If you can show me that nightborne have nothing to do with the night or with elves then i'll believe you.

    They are Shal'dorei following their very night elven culture. If you're trying to think or present nightborne as not having anything to do with night elves, you'd be wrong, they haven't changed their night elven ways like the high elves did, in fact they became even more night intense, you could say they're more night elven than the night elves - notice i'm using night elf descriptively not as a race, the race's name is Kal'dorei. No one calls themselves night elf - as you know the humans labelled them that to distinguish them from the elves they already knew. And so to humans and most of Azeroth, nightborne, night elves, highborne will all be night elves as in elves of the night. We know that Kal'dorei though are not Shal'dorei.

    it's not hard.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Lowborne night elves were no more nature inclined than highborne ones, it's more a case of highborne were more arcane intensive.. night elf society close to the first invasion had all turned to callously and intensely on the arcane.
    According to chronicle the general population was still into the old nature ways, while only a part of their society embraced the arcane.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    Blood Elves and Nightborne are both descended from the Highborne.
    Blood elves are descended from Zin'Azshari highborne.

    Nightborne are the highborne and night elves of the city that look a little different now - you have a lot of 10k year old ones you know. Night elves like the Stormarages, Tyrande, the Shadowsongs, Shandris Feathermoon could very well have living nightborne relatives. this is not a descended generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsybob View Post
    The highborne in Suramar made a big shield over their city and created the nightwell.

    The highborne that followed Dath'Remar Sunstrider were exiled from Ashenvale by the new Kaldorei in charge. They sailed away and became high elves due to being so far away from the new well of eternity and world tree.

    The highborne that stayed loyal to Azshara became Naga and many became Satyr with Xavius.

    The final group of highborne were a tiny faction stuck inside dire mail.


    The Night Elves actually have the furthest connection to the Nightborne.
    correct. But you must remember the majority of kal'dorei kalimdor night elves come from Surmar itself, they have the strongest connection. Followed by the Dire Maul Highborne, the Shen'drelar, then the Blood elves have the least connection to the nightborne of the existing level - they are the only group that have broken off from the night tradition and culture - whether arcane or nature, there's is a different arcane culture, and it wasn't pure arcane like the highborne and nightborne, it grew in nature and in the light too. It is quite unique. And that is the order of the existing elves. Further removed are first the Naga, who are more related to the High/blood elves because they're also Zin'Azshari highborne, but now they are no longer elves, they have been transformed to a new species. They consider themselves highborne, but no longer highborne elves, highborne naga. Furthest removed are teh Satyr who aren't even humanoid anymore, but demons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    According to chronicle the general population was still into the old nature ways, while only a part of their society embraced the arcane.
    I think you will find out the Chronicles shows you they have a nature element to them, it doesn't show you that one group of night elves were nature and another arcane, the story is well known the night elves were born of the arcane source. Earlier on they were quite balanced, tutored by Cenarius in the ways of nature, and studying the arcane according to their natural inclinations, in time, due to the influence of Azshara they became very Arcane orientated.. all of them, if WotA and WC3 are to be believed. Cenarius withdrew from them because of that, and towards the start of the war of the ancients, malfurion (not any nature group of night elves) went searching for him to learn the ways of nature.

    and after the sundering, because they believed the arcane well would attract the demons back, they stopped using it for spells, growing only in druidism since they had malfurion to teach them. THe other groups that didn't - the Eldre'thalas highborne and the Suramar night elves (their family they thought lost) both continued entirely in the arcane, with no nature.

    it wasn't ever 1 group of nature night elves and arcane night elves. The highborne were just a more concentrated group of talented arcane users the Queen formed, it was more intense arcane and less intense arcane.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Tyrande fighting Lorthemar makes more Sense. Rommath would be fighting whatever arch mage the night elves or nightborne have.
    exactly.. rather than some 30 year old human mage constantly showing up and somehow humiliating high/blood elves 100s of years their seniors or high/nightborne possibly thousands of years their senior, living and breathing the arcane all their lives.. /rolleyes blizz !!

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I think you will find out the Chronicles shows you they have a nature element to them, it doesn't show you that one group of night elves were nature and another arcane, the story is well known the night elves were born of the arcane source. Earlier on they were quite balanced, tutored by Cenarius in the ways of nature, and studying the arcane according to their natural inclinations, in time, due to the influence of Azshara they became very Arcane orientated.. all of them, if WotA and WC3 are to be believed. Cenarius withdrew from them because of that, and towards the start of the war of the ancients, malfurion (not any nature group of night elves) went searching for him to learn the ways of nature.
    Cenarius still watched from afar and this snippet is the result.

    With growing unease, he had watched the night elf empire expand. Year by year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and thoughtless actions of the sorceress highborne. The majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folk still lived in harmony with the land warmed Cenarius's heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her arrogant followers.

    chronicle page 95

  9. #29
    Why do we have fanboys denying everything wrong with a certain object in warcraft? We got the nightborne fanboy, the arthas fanboy the dh fanboys the brigade of varian and human alliance fanboys,
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    In other countries like Canada the population has chosen to believe in hope, peace and tolerance. This we can see from the election of the Honourable Justin Trudeau who stood against the politics of hate and divisiveness.

  10. #30
    You, OP, keep saying day elves, its not a thing.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    wE doN't kNoW wHaT pLaYeRs WaNt FoR cHarAcTeR CrEaTiOn MoDeLs

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    they did, but they weren't isolated from the rest of the land or the world, - they did what the other night elven arcane groups did, 3k years later. both the highborne and nightborne were doing what the high elves eventually did when they formed Quel'thalas, but unlike the night elven groups, who were in isolation, the high elves were the only group of elves that were not.
    I'm still not sure how is this supposed to create some monumental rift between Nightborne and Blood Elves while making Nightborne want to worship the first Darnassian Elves they see. They were isolated from them too.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You do appreciate that night elves and blood elves have far more in common than they do not genetically too. And as for highborne and blood elves, even more so culturally, but they are still also quite different. When you think nightborne you think highborne, you don't think blood elf. This is not a story about blood elves. It's showing you night elven arcane civilization at it's peak. This is what became of night elf night elves who didn't stop using the arcane and continued in their pre-sundering empire format. There was no pause of magic usage for spells here, there was no breaking away from anything to do with Kal'dorei culture. This is is Kal'dorei cultuture advanced in the arcane light, just like the hyjal group is Kal'dorei culture having taken the nature root. whereas the highborne represent kal'dorei aracne culture that survived but fell to depravity eventually.
    When I think Nightborne I think Nightborne because I actually accepted the fact that they are a separate race. And in any case, going the other direction and starting with Highborne it makes more sense to think High Elf other than Nightborne because both are called Quel'dorei. And I know it is not a story about Blood Elves. It's a story about Nightborne. And yes, I'm sure the Kal'dorei culture of even Azshara's followers included actual dependence on magic to survive being the most focal point of their daily lives or exile and cutting out from the power source of the undesirables. Blizzard just forgot to mention that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You'll play it soon enough, I think the name nightborne kinda gives it away, but maybe being shrouded in perpetual night might convince you.
    The name is just that, a name. What happened to "Night Elves don't actually call themselves Night Elves"? The other name for San'layn is Darkfallen. What's also dark? Night! And most of their dwellings are also dark, because vampire theme. San'layn reverting back to Night Elves in undeath confirmed.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    which night elves rejected that? The Kal'dorei? or the Quel'dorei? or the Moonguard? b/c as far as i know, only the Hyjal group rejected that. and no, most of them were not "Nature attuned" before the war of the ancients, they were all very much arcane attuned. Cenarius loved their spirit and taught them the ways of nature, but they've always had an arcane affinity. You read WotA, WC3 manual, and the night elves were arcane focused, the highborne amongst them were the some of the best and birghtest in that field. Arcane was not the only focus, but it is one all of them shared, some were nature attuned, some devoted to the priesthood.
    And the Hyjal group is the majority of their race. The only other part is Shen'dralar and they are few in numbers. Quel'dorei that Darnassus was aware of were exiled in case you didn't know. Precisely for still using arcane. Moonguard was disbanded because of that. Shen'dralar remained hidden without anyone knowing. And I did read WotA. It's time for you to read Chronicles because what you're saying is simply incorrect as per the latest information we've been given on the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You don't understand night elves if you think their existence is not arcane based. The evidence is all over their history, even the Kal'dorei that stopped using the arcane for spells after the sundering for 10,000 years till very recently, continued to be suffused by the arcane power of the well. in fact they kept taking the well and the aracne influence that was very good for the land all over. They just didn't use it for spells - and we're told why. Not because they hated it, principally because they thought/felt using it would bring back the legion and end the world. They were right and wrong, mostly wrong.
    You don't understand Chronicles if you think arcane was some fundamental aspect of their society when as it was written in plain English it was not. And they ignored the second Well of Eternity, instead planting a tree in it that spread life, i.e. nature energies throughout the land and it was the World Tree that was their focus. They imprisoned Illidan for creating the Well.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    that's your opinion, maybe we should call a night elf or maybe a nightborne up and ask them huh.
    Yes, I'm sure a Nightborne learning that a Blood Elven bad guys did X instead of Y would create a monumental rift between the two. What a difference! It's totally not like the Nightborne had no clue who Kael was or that currently living Blood Elves had no particular memories about Nightborne bad guys.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Nightborne aren't kal'dorei dude, but they are night elves. If you can show me that nightborne have nothing to do with the night or with elves then i'll believe you.
    This argument was idiotic the first time you mentioned it, it is still idiotic now. Especially now that you added the "the Night Elves don't actually call themselves Night Elves" angle. Do humans call Nightborne Night Elves? Also, Elves are just mutated Trolls. So Elves have to do with Trolls. Nightborne are Elves, as such have to do with Trolls. What Trolls are nocturnal? That's right, Dark Trolls. Nightborne are still Dark Trolls.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    They are Shal'dorei following their very night elven culture. If you're trying to think or present nightborne as not having anything to do with night elves, you'd be wrong, they haven't changed their night elven ways like the high elves did, in fact they became even more night intense, you could say they're more night elven than the night elves - notice i'm using night elf descriptively not as a race, the race's name is Kal'dorei. No one calls themselves night elf - as you know the humans labelled them that to distinguish them from the elves they already knew. And so to humans and most of Azeroth, nightborne, night elves, highborne will all be night elves as in elves of the night. We know that Kal'dorei though are not Shal'dorei.
    They are following the very Night Elven culture that most of the actual Night Elves never followed and then all of them consequently rejected first by rebelling against Azshara, then by imprisoning Illidan for creating a new Well of Eternity, then by exiling remaining Quel'dorei.


    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    it's not hard.
    Yes, stretching things to make Nightborne into Night Elves to satiate your Night Elf fascination when Blizzard specifically said they aren't Night Elves isn't hard. It is, however, wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm still not sure how is this supposed to create some monumental rift between Nightborne and Blood Elves while making Nightborne want to worship the first Darnassian Elves they see. They were isolated from them too.
    I'm still not sure why you ever thought this was about a monumental rift between the two groups



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    When I think Nightborne I think Nightborne because I actually accepted the fact that they are a separate race. And in any case, going the other direction and starting with Highborne it makes more sense to think High Elf other than Nightborne because both are called Quel'dorei. And I know it is not a story about Blood Elves. It's a story about Nightborne. And yes, I'm sure the Kal'dorei culture of even Azshara's followers included actual dependence on magic to survive being the most focal point of their daily lives or exile and cutting out from the power source of the undesirables. Blizzard just forgot to mention that.
    Are you implying that I don't accept they are? I'm trying to understand very precisely what's going on here. it actually makes more sense to think Highborne Quel'dorei (Darnassian) i.e. Shen'drelar, Court of Farondis, Azshara etc than it is to think High elf Quel'dorei (Thalassian) or Highborne (Naga). Just clarifying that. Blizzard forgot to mention a lots of things, you infer from what they show you. Now if they had chosen some distant previously unknown city, or developed another set of dark trolls into elves, or another type of elven culture that was based on something different I wouldn't be emphasizing the differences and similarities. but they chose Suramar, they chose night elf arcane civilization and they chose night elves to become nightborne, a different race of night elves that aren't kal'dorei , but they may consider themselves kal'dorei just like the naga who aren't elves any longer consider themselves highborne. Their developers said they wanted to show night elf arcane culture as it was if it had kept on going from the level of arcane advancement it was. This is a night elven culture continuing on, it's just in a different place from the larger Kal'dorei group. and it's not like the blood elves - just because their bodies evolve a bit, doesn't mean it's the same, and just because they share arcane affinity (i'm not saying you say it's the same, but some people do say that). The picture painted here is a night elf highborne led culture and how it's continued on - even the name nightborne (night elf highborne) is a dead give away. They've become more night based than the kal'dorei not less. Some would say they are more kal'dorei than they. Their bodies look night elven, and are far closer to the night elf Kal'dorei than they are to the blood elves.

    I know they are different to the kal'dorei, they've evovled, but they didn't evolve away from being night elves, they are a new race of elves of the night in a the most developed arcane night elf civilziation on Azeroth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The name is just that, a name. What happened to "Night Elves don't actually call themselves Night Elves"? The other name for San'layn is Darkfallen. What's also dark? Night! And most of their dwellings are also dark, because vampire theme. San'layn reverting back to Night Elves in undeath confirmed.
    Darkfallen means fallen to the darkness, in their case it is clear that darkness is one of undeath and shadow - i mean the name and hten the presentation often gives it away. It's not rocket science.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And the Hyjal group is the majority of their race. The only other part is Shen'dralar and they are few in numbers. Quel'dorei that Darnassus was aware of were exiled in case you didn't know. Precisely for still using arcane. Moonguard was disbanded because of that. Shen'dralar remained hidden without anyone knowing. And I did read WotA. It's time for you to read Chronicles because what you're saying is simply incorrect as per the latest information we've been given on the topic.
    You meet the Moonguard again in the Broken Isles, a group not associated at all with the Hyjal group. Who's numbers we just don't know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post

    You don't understand Chronicles if you think arcane was some fundamental aspect of their society when as it was written in plain English it was not. And they ignored the second Well of Eternity, instead planting a tree in it that spread life, i.e. nature energies throughout the land and it was the World Tree that was their focus. They imprisoned Illidan for creating the Well.
    I think as the group are very much my favourite, and I follow them and their lore closely I'm quite familiar with what Chronicles said. I think a numb er of you are mixing up wowrpg non-canon material with canon material of Chronicles and WotA and allowing it to colour your view with some mis-informations. the arcane was a huge part of their society pre-sundering, as you read in all the accounts, it didn't start that way, but it grew to be that, and having arcane affinity by nature doesn't necessarly mean you are a master immediately. The very arcane well transformed dark trolls furhter into night elves, WotA several times empahsiszes their mysterious fundamental connection to magic and the arcane, chronicles makes it clear that they were tutored in nature , showing me it wasn't fundamentally innately part of them as much as the arcane was and is. and I think you missed the part where the night elves take the very arcane waters of the well of eternity and make moonwells all over the place, and use that to strengthen life, nature everything all around

    Warcraft lore expalins to you that the arcane source enhances life, intellect, stature, it is really good for you, this si an arcane source, and it's been very clear about that from the start. Yes they grew a tree, but they still had an arcane source very much a part of them. THis is what the blood elves disdain them for, for having so much power coursing through them and refusing to use it out of what seems little more than fear and superstition. However the night elves did use it alot, just not for spell work to rebuild hteir civilizaiton, and we are told why, the main reason was because they feared useing it would draw the demons back to Azeroth and thus band it.

    Look, i've yearned for ages to see the arcane element of the night elves from day one when it was the first thing highlighted about them..from the start. Warcraft introduces the kal'dorei group 10k years in a period of isoaltion relying on nature instead of their beloved magic, and explains to you why this is the case. we see them at an end of a very long vigil and their story starts up again as the enemies they trovee long to prevent re-entry finally came, .

    Magic is what fascinated me about the night elves, arcane magic, yes i love that fancy, not that i don't lik e nature, i do, it was just a part of them , but i lvoed the other part that they lost, and i have taken time to follow closely and enjoy every tdetail i'm shown. /it's my thing, if i get it wrong, i get it wrong and move on, adjust my view to what is been shown, So far, that has been shown.

    I'm aware of the warcraft rpg that paints a different picture too, it is the source of this (2-separate species of night elves, highborne and not - they were a caste, not a separate race - most of it's stuff contrdicts WotA anyway), So rather than hang on to it, I let it go, and embraced what the canon was telling me. ANd stick to that - no more imaginings for me. Stick to the script, you'll see what I see, it's there in plain sight.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, I'm sure a Nightborne learning that a Blood Elven bad guys did X instead of Y would create a monumental rift between the two. What a difference! It's totally not like the Nightborne had no clue who Kael was or that currently living Blood Elves had no particular memories about Nightborne bad guys.
    I jest old boy, don't take it so srsly



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    This argument was idiotic the first time you mentioned it, it is still idiotic now. Especially now that you added the "the Night Elves don't actually call themselves Night Elves" angle.
    now you're sounding idiotic. and sounds like you're arguing for the sake of.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They are following the very Night Elven culture that most of the actual Night Elves never followed and then all of them consequently rejected first by rebelling against Azshara, then by imprisoning Illidan for creating a new Well of Eternity, then by exiling remaining Quel'dorei.
    rebelling against Azshara was not a rejection of their culture. The Queen was raining demons down on them.

    it's understandble if you've had all your civilization and cities destroyed, and your means to rebuild them deemed far too great a threat to use, that you will have to adjust to a different type of lifestyle, it would have been different if they'd known Eldre'thalas or their own home city of Suramar survived and with magic users who used their powers responsibly and for good on such a large scale. Maybe they would have trusted their counsel. We'll never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, stretching things to make Nightborne into Night Elves to satiate your Night Elf fascination when Blizzard specifically said they aren't Night Elves isn't hard. It is, however, wrong.
    I'm excited, and that's obviously a crime, so i have to be put in my place. I suspec this really has nothing to do with the fact, becasue despite my efforts at presenting the lore which you full weell know, you are nitpicking and deliberately confusing defintiions and presentations that have been properly presented to you in the intended context. I know you can read and understand. So you're just being stubborn and argumentative, which indicates a dislike on your part

    Does it honestly make a difference to you? really really? it is what it is, you can go on enjoying wow, thinking nightborne elves, elves of the night, are nothing to do with night elves. play dumb and state the obvious that they're not kal'dorei stating that they're not night elves, knowing full well the play on words when one is referring to kal'dorei and when one is referring descriptively.

    The way I see it, blizzard wants to make arcane night elf society it's own separate thing, distinct from the nature orientated night elves, that's fine, it's new, but it's still night elven, it's not shying away from that, it may not be kaldorei, but these are all elves of the night or more easily said, night elves
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2016-08-24 at 01:12 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    With disdain, they see the abuse and corruption of the nightwell (sunwell) and Kael 2.0; added on top of night elves
    but the night well I being abuse, it's become corrupt, but not from abuse or reckless use, in fact shouldn't the blood elves be looking up to the nightborne? the nightborne got it perfectly right with the arcane, they avoid arcane addiction and they keep up their perfect refuge for 10k year, the only blip although it is a massive blip is aligning with the legion. What was Elisande thinking.

    They may see Kael 2.0 in elisande though. would be funny if the night elves get to accept the nightborne despite the corruption of the nightwell , cos the blood elves can yell at them, you hypocrites, you shunned us away because you claimed corruption and now you accept them. And make them even more angry with the night elves and the nightborne too
    Last edited by Beloren; 2016-08-24 at 03:41 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    but the night well I being abuse, it's become corrupt, but not from abuse or reckless use, in fact sldnthe blood elves b looking up to the nightborne, they got it perfectly right, they avoid arcane addiction and they keep up their perfect refuge for 10k year, the only blip although it is a massive blip is aligning with the legion. What was Elisande thinking.
    Out of all the elves no one else is so utterly dependent on magic than the nightborne, heck if they don't get their fix they degenerate to mindless savages.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    but the night well I being abuse, it's become corrupt, but not from abuse or reckless use, in fact sldnthe blood elves b looking up to the nightborne, they got it perfectly right, they avoid arcane addiction and they keep up their perfect refuge for 10k year, the only blip although it is a massive blip is aligning with the legion. What was Elisande thinking.
    they may see Kael 2.0 in elisande though. would be funny if the night elves get to accept the nightborne despite the corruption of the nightwell , cos the blood elves can yell at them, you hypocrites, you shunned us away because you claimed corruption and now you accept them. And make them even more angry with the night elves and the nightborne too
    to which the night elves would reply - it's not the same thing - ofc the night elves have become less far less prejudiced and a bit more knowledgeable about the arcane with regards tot he legion than they were back then. they'd try to explain to the blood elves, that the nightborne are not in this position through reckless or abusive use, nor a corrupt mindset or heart - unlike Azshara and unlike the blood elves under Kael'thas or the addiction that overtook the high elves,

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    to which the night elves would reply - it's not the same thing - ofc the night elves have become less far less prejudiced and a bit more knowledgeable about the arcane with regards tot he legion than they were back then. they'd try to explain to the blood elves, that the nightborne are not in this position through reckless or abusive use, nor a corrupt mindset or heart - unlike Azshara and unlike the blood elves under Kael'thas or the addiction that overtook the high elves,
    Elisande would have damned the world if it meant her people would be saved, at one point you have to look at the bigger picture, but she didn't care about the rest of the world, she makes Greymane who turned Lordaeron away in its most dire hour look like a saint. Just like Kael, she began walking a road of utter ruin and corruption, dragging her people along with her.

    It is nice that she survives, because moral ambiguous characters are always fun to observe, but ultimately the Suramar society was on a highway to civil war just like Quel'thalas was, the moment Kael returned and the people back home realized what a whacko he had become.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Out of all the elves no one else is so utterly dependent on magic than the nightborne, heck if they don't get their fix they degenerate to mindless savages.
    it's not addiciton, it's food. if you don't get food you will degenerate. twist here is that because of the corruption in the nightwell source itself, starvation takes on added complication, turning you into corrupted mindless savage after you've starved out, and then ofc die.

    I noticed in Suramar quests, that when in stage 1 of nightfallen (the recoverable stage) they have their minds and wits about them, they don't feed on others or anything living, not like DHs, or locks or the BEleves under Illidan did with Fel. You get the impression they find that utterly reprehensible. They take mana of crystals and objects as a poor substitute. It is not enough to restore them, but it can provide some level of sustenance and delay further regeneration.. what their body needs is the nightwell arcwine, the corruption has caused it such that it is the only thing their body can take. WHen they hit stage 2 of nightfallen, i.e. fully withered (so starved you're almost all bones, but now you're mindless too) then they will feed on anything, because they just crave satisfaction - it's such a horrible thing a fate worse than death, behaviour they totally abhor.

    It is not addiction when this is now your food. And they didn't come to this place by intellectual curiousity or or typical night elf hubris no, their city was starving, food, clothing and supplies were depleted, it made sense to find a way to adapt the life giving energies of the arcane source to a format the body could ingest. Would have been fine if the source hadn't gone off, but now it has and it is doing this awful thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Elisande would have damned the world if it meant her people would be saved, at one point you have to look at the bigger picture, but she didn't care about the rest of the world, she makes Greymane who turned Lordaeron away in its most dire hour look like a saint. Just like Kael, she began walking a road of utter ruin and corruption, dragging her people along with her.

    It is nice that she survives, because moral ambiguous characters are always fun to observe, but ultimately the Suramar society was on a highway to civil war just like Quel'thalas was, the moment Kael returned and the people back home realized what a whacko he had become.
    joining up with the legion tends to do that, and often makes your actions quite inexcusable, but at least in her case it wasn't for more power or glory or the usual things the evil people are tempted with and sell their souls. Sold your people to save them is interesting , and saving Elisande is far more interesting than klling her, because now a reckoning must come, fortunately for her, it woudl go along way cos without her we wouldn't have been able to use the nightwell to defeat Gul'dan

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    to which the night elves would reply - it's not the same thing - ofc the night elves have become less far less prejudiced and a bit more knowledgeable about the arcane with regards tot he legion than they were back then. they'd try to explain to the blood elves, that the nightborne are not in this position through reckless or abusive use, nor a corrupt mindset or heart - unlike Azshara and unlike the blood elves under Kael'thas or the addiction that overtook the high elves,
    and to which the blood elves would reply, so one form of corruption is okay, but not another - hypocrites!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    and to which the blood elves would reply, so one form of corruption is okay, but not another - hypocrites!
    to which the night elves (remembering the corruption of the emerald dream and its effect on the druids) would reply - yes! it certainly matters what your intentions were, it's one thin g if your source goes corrupts and affects you negatively, like it has the druids and like it has the nightfallen, it's another thing if out of pride, arrogance, greed, addiction, lust for more power you defile yourself and over indulge. one comes out of a corrupt soul, the other is just the body - and all effort must be made to remedy by removing the corruption and cleansing the source

    Such is the nature of magic,

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    it's not addiciton, it's food. if you don't get food you will degenerate. twist here is that because of the corruption in the nightwell source itself, starvation takes on added complication, turning you into corrupted mindless savage after you've starved out, and then ofc die.
    Yes it is, since they made a choice and that choice has consequences, they decided to abandon food and supplement themselves on arcwine, becoming so utterly dependent on arcane power that without it they will literally wither away. They didn't dare to undo their shield for a brief moment or send an expedition into the outside world and never learned about the outside world so they didn't see it had survived.

    The high elves did not intend to become addicted to magic either but the mere connection to the well caused it regardless and as such they suffer the consequences of their decision to create a new well to this day.

    I noticed in Suramar quests, that when in stage 1 of nightfallen (the recoverable stage) they have their minds and wits about them, they don't feed on others or anything living, not like DHs, or locks or the BEleves under Illidan did with Fel. You get the impression they find that utterly reprehensible. They take mana of crystals and objects as a poor substitute. It is not enough to restore them, but it can provide some level of sustenance and delay further regeneration.. what their body needs is the nightwell arcwine, the corruption has caused it such that it is the only thing their body can take. WHen they hit stage 2 of nightfallen, i.e. fully withered (so starved you're almost all bones, but now you're mindless too) then they will feed on anything, because they just crave satisfaction - it's such a horrible thing a fate worse than death, behaviour they totally abhor.
    There are nightfallen who will drain anything, just like there are some who don't.

    It is not addiction when this is now your food. And they didn't come to this place by intellectual curiousity or or typical night elf hubris no, their city was starving, food, clothing and supplies were depleted, it made sense to find a way to adapt the life giving energies of the arcane source to a format the body could ingest. Would have been fine if the source hadn't gone off, but now it has and it is doing this awful thing.
    They switched from ordinary food to arcane based arcwine and now they no longer can turn back, yup there own damn fault.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2016-08-24 at 03:50 PM.

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