If you want to voice your concerns, here's your chance

[sugarfree]

For PVE i completely agree with you. For pvp though, spamming instants (conflag / shadowburns / portals) is godsend. You don't have to worry no more about casting. It's Ice lance shatter mage all over again. Just jumping around nuking stuff.

It's the worst they have ever put Destro ever. The mechanics for this spec was perfected in MoP despite having (overpowered) damage. WoD watered that down but still retained the mechanics which still made it FUN. In Legion, they removed that perfect clockwork and tried to fix what wasn't broken in order for them to add something to the talent trees. It is LAZINESS and INCOMPETENCE at the same time.

How in the world could a developer put mobility (Demonic Teleport) and survivability (Dark Pact) in one talent row is BEYOND me. And the worst talent of all (Burning Rush) is the one that survived this long, literally the talent that no one picks.

I can't with them. It seems to me that none of them play the class at all. How they can completely ignore all PvP issues during the whole beta is something I still can't fathom.

[Crucio]

I have no idea how people manage to complain about a buff.

Honestly, because it's a pointless change to a spell that serves no function as 2 target cleave. Increasing the cleave ability on CDF when Wreak Havoc is a competing talent on that line literally makes zero sense. It's actually bordering on an insult, as if they're trying to appease the masses when the reality is it changes nothing. How stupid do they think the Warlock community is? (This is the typical response you will see below. It may or may not be my own opinion).

[Orwell7]

Honestly, because it's a pointless change to a spell that serves no function as 2 target cleave. Increasing the cleave ability on CDF when Wreak Havoc is a competing talent on that line literally makes zero sense. It's actually bordering on an insult, as if they're trying to appease the masses when the reality is it changes nothing. How stupid do they think the Warlock community is? (This is the typical response you will see below. It may or may not be my own opinion).

It's not that they see the Lock community as stupid. I sincerely think they see this is a good change!

[Gaidax]

I seriously don't get you, they improved spell's viability in certain cituations. It is OK change.

No it's not the mega uber buffs you are waiting for but it IS a good small viability bump to a talent that needs that on that row.

But of course let's be salty because the patch does not say "and increased Channel Demonfire damage by 200% and warlock damage as a whole by 150%".

[FertsBlert]

I seriously don't get you, they improved spell's viability in certain cituations. It is OK change.

No it's not the mega uber buffs you are waiting for but it IS a good small viability bump to a talent that needs that on that row.

But of course let's be salty because the patch does not say "and increased Channel Demonfire damage by 200% and warlock damage as a whole by 150%".

It's a non-change if you are cleaving you take the other talent in that row, no ifs buts or maybes. So no it's not an ok change, it's nothing.

Of course that is only true until Wreak Havoc is nerfed into the ground since that seems to be the way things work, if there is a clear winner in a talent row it will be nerfed into a state where the other shitty talents in that row suddenly become viable choices not because they were made any better just because they are all now shit choices.

[Gaidax]

Holy crap and if it's a bloody single target fight with some add you need to burst popping out once in a long while? Do you still take Wreck Havoc?

No you don't. This change improved this spell in these situations, what's so difficult to understand?

It's another option you did not have and now you have, why whine about that, seriously?

It's a step in the right direction for this spell, not some godlike change that will make everyone open mouths in awe and drop on their knees and tattoo "Blizzard" on their foreheads. It's a small nice thing for this spell, that's all.

[Orwell7]

Holy crap and if it's a bloody single target fight with some add you need to burst popping out once in a long while? Do you still take Wreck Havoc?

No you don't. This change improved this spell in these situations, what's so difficult to understand?

It's another option you did not have and now you have, why whine about that, seriously?

Because if you want a payraise in your workplace, and get only a MUG with "employee of the quarter" painted on it, you get mad, period.

Are you getting paid for this? nonsense, by the way? Please PM me the details then.

[Selky]

Is Wreak Havoc the reason Destro can't have nice things? It seems like it's pigeonholing the spec into a 2-3 target cleave monster, which has always been Affliction's niche. I'd give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we could get the old Fire and Brimstone back or some form of burst AoE.

[Deleted]

Is Wreak Havoc the reason Destro can't have nice things? It seems like it's pigeonholing the spec into a 2-3 target cleave monster, which has always been Affliction's niche. I'd give it up in a heartbeat if it meant we could get the old Fire and Brimstone back or some form of burst AoE.

Cataclysm is decent for burst AoE. Fire and Brimstone is decent for sustained AoE. The problem is that both have some pretty strong single target competition (Reverse Entropy - Eradication), and other ranged DPS usually don't have to make such a tradeoff. At least not constantly. Every single damage increasing row in destruction has a pretty unforgiving tradeoff. Heck, they even said themselves that Fire and Brimstone in its current iteration is problematic, because without it you are left with an odd AoE rotation (Spreading immolate manually, conflag / rain of fire when possible, fill with single target incinerate).

I still firmly believe that warlocks are a mechanical mess at the moment, but mostly due to small things.

Rain of Fire should be instant cast. It costs 3 shards, is placed on the ground (Which enemies can move out of for one reason or another), and has a long duration over which it does the damage. Soul Harvest interacts weirdly with Cataclysm, either you use the cooldown before the big AoE nuke, and it has a (much) shorter duration, or you use your big AoE nuke before you use your cooldown but you get a long duration on the dps cooldown. Either way you never get full benefit.

Channel Demonfire is barely worth using over soul conduit (Even with the change), and it will only get worse as time goes on (Artifact traits buff Chaos Bolt, they don't buff Channel Demonfire).

Dimensional Rift doesn't really interact with anything we have, we can't control what portal will spawn (14 sec portal for important add burst, nice RNG), it doesn't benefit from mastery, and all in all it is just a strictly worse and less interesting version of fire mages artifact ability.

Then there are the obvious things with having no slows, no baseline interrupt, and having life tap for no real reason.

Enslave Demon didn't work on pretty much anything when I tested everything in sight on beta, at least not any elites, and anything with worthwhile abilities had their abilities coded specifically to target players or to not work when enslaved.

I love our tankiness, and our ability to solo, and I'm sure our numbers will eventually be just fine. But dear lord, when it comes to interesting mechanics, warlocks are severely lacking.

[Scathbais]

Add spawns and you need to burst it...havoc > CDF > cb/etc

There's no reason to immolate the add if you're going for burst. If it's longer than 15 secs you don't lose anything if it's immolated and you used CDF. You just gained 50% less (22.5 ticks compared with 30).

Again, it's supposed to make CDF a more versatile talent for real situations and it does that. They are trying to have it be a choice, not for one or the other to always be better.

I completely get where you are coming from Turtutin. My issue is that I can't see a situation where I would prefer channel demon fire over soul conduit. For fight with short lived adds I'd much rather havoc main target and shadow burn the add or cleave 2 to 3 chaos bolts into the add than lose the extra chaos bolts from soil conduit.

Haven't seen real theory rafting yet but my napkin math tells me channel demo fire is too weak to be useful.

[Cirque]

this again? same shit every expansion, warlocks whining all the time and in the end we end up OP as always

calm your tits seriously

[PowerOfTwo]

because warlocks are pretty well off in legion, the nerf of roaring blaze was required ,it was INSANE it could tick more then a chaos bolt if you did it right, and demos got some pretty good single target sustained dps, and has 2 legendaries that together make you do very good dps, summoning demons to reduce cooldown of doomguard, to increase your damage, for X seconds+ get a dpds cooldown more often

Wich is exactly the problem. I personaly, and realisticaly 99% of the playersbase (unless you're racing for world firsts and that .5% of extra dmg ment the differance between a kill and a wipe) don't care about numbers. Monks got a 50% buff to EM and a _100%_ buff to guard first week of HM for example. Numbers will be adjusted. The problem is the playstyle is atrocious in most casses.

Warlock in general suffers from being locked into either an AoE heavy or ST heavy setup and wichever you go makes the other role useless. Off the top of my head no other class has to make that heavy of a sacrifice talent wise. Also lost aaaaaalot of mobility via putting TP in the talent tier , making it clunky as hell to use anyway, loosing demonic leap, loosing fel rush, because again, it's the weaker talent on the tier, making fel rush burn for more than before anyway.... Hell technicaly speaking only affliction has a BASELINE interupt... we're worse than druids and shadowpriests when it comes to M+ utility... I get the feeling the devs have it in their heads that locks is suposed to be the "tanky" clothy via drains, absorbs, stats etc. and are kinda ignoring the fact that in relevant content stuff, at a core level is designed to one shot you, or be healed through....

Afflictions only means of generating shards is RNG , and it gets dimishing returns the more mobs you have up. The artifact was designed around killing the escaping souls and was never Changed. Destro is "ok" and pretty much only ok, CB hit's like a fart, AoE has high ramp time. Speaking of ramp time Demo out of the box and by far the worse spec since you have a good 14-16 seconds of ramp up when it comes to target switching (Mythic Iskar anyone?). Like they can buff Demo's numbers to high heaven , not much worth in say a 10M dmg spell that takes 20 seconds to cast.... BUUUUUUUUT ofc they have the best legendary combo of the three, again, by far. Going strictly off feeling, Kazzak's curse + Fizzles Sigil + Sin'dorei spite, with current numbers, could make Demo even more stupidly OP than arcane was during HFC... but ofc you need to wait thill 7.2 at least to even be able to use 3 Legendaries and then you have to suck the cock of RNGsus thill your teeth fall out to actualy get the 3 Legiondaries you need... don't realy care about AP, you'll cap out at 2560% extra AP by then but...... yeah.

[Soulstealing]

Seems we finally got a blue response let's see what happens if anything will at all

[Walrock]

itshappening.jpg oO
I actually didnt expect an answer, was already in the mood to just play my warlock and enjoy it as long as its possible.

[Deezlar]

itshappening.jpg oO
I actually didnt expect an answer, was already in the mood to just play my warlock and enjoy it as long as its possible.

They responsed again literally 10 minutes ago... its well worth getting your 2p in.

It will probably come to nothing and will most likely lead to us getting nerfs, but at least I can kill my Warlock head held high that we tried everything.


Deezlar. Human Warlock of the Alliance from May 2005.
Betrayed by the woman he loved and murdered by her hand, cursed to walk the earth as an Undead, November 2008 - present day

Without something to keep this poor fucker going, Its going to be a mercy burying him.

[xpose]

Don't expect anything big until 7.2. They already have content in the pipeline to worry about disgruntled warlocks

[Walrock]

Don't expect anything big until 7.2. They already have content in the pipeline to worry about disgruntled warlocks

They have 3-4 months to fix warlocks until Nighthold comes out which is already done, pretty much like Kharazan I suppose.
Enough time to fix it (or apply some bandaids), but not likely, bc Blizz.. :/

But it looks like the CM's are collecting player feedback on some classes to pass it to the devs.

[Deleted]

Thanks all who made an effort posting on the US forum. Let's hope blizzard will take some suggestions seriously and fix some of the bad mechanics. Can't post there myself so posting a suggestion here and hopefully someone will forward this to the US forum. Maybe it's been suggested already but why not completely remove RoF. I mean we didn't miss it in WoD and now it's back with a cast timer and huge shard cost. If adds move stacking RoF slaps you in the face. Instead it might be an idea to move the shard cost to Cataclysm. Let do a bit more damage or so for burst sake. In return let F and B do more damage when targents are immolated. This will bring good synergy between the 2, give us a good aoe tool both burst and sustained and because F and B incinerate will also deal more damage when used on an immolated single target we won't loose that much ST dps.

[Jessicka]

Now I've had some chance to play with the Artefact and well, play a bit, I added my thoughts to the EU version of the thread. These are they.

Well I might as well add might 2 pence. I don't really have an opinion on Destruction, it's not a spec that appealed to me, so I won't be commenting on it. Demonology and Affliction on the other hand... The CM advised that we discuss 'by spell' basically what does and doesn't 'feel good' about them, so I'll try to keep to that.

Affliction
All three DoTs feel exactly the same. Three timers, all instant cast, no special graphic or feedback particularly that any of them feel you've done something.

They all each feel individually very weak; in fact using the Soul Effigy talent requires you to cast each twice to get more power out of them. This is layered then with either UA as a 'maintenancy' debuff or Mana Tap as a maintenance buff to then bring them up to full power; and further maintenance buff in Reap Souls as a final flourish. It's probably the most work we've ever had to do just to make our base spells work.

3-6 DoTs, and 2 maintenance buffs. That's a lot of timers on my UI.

I'll give special attention to Reap Souls here. It's an artefact trait, and it's the type of spell that has been stripped away from other classes. I look at what other classes and specs get, and they get some big nukes; things that impact play to use in conjunction and synergises with other abilities. We get a maintenance buff. It's dreadful, and smacks of the last ditch change because the previous iteration was somehow worse. It adds nothing to the spec or gameplay, but another timer and barely meaningful resource.

Life Tap. It is iconic, or at least it used to be, but now it's another zero impact instant cast spell you press when a bar moves too far toward empty.

Drain Life as a filler is fine, it feels no different to it ever did, or Drain Soul or Malefic Grasp did; but the visual is a step backwards from those two and that makes it feel as weak as it perhaps is.

Mana Tap. I'm not one who's against maintenance buffs by default; they can add something if they have a nice visual impact, if it has a clear benefit across all targets - as was with Soulburn Haunt - or has some other secondary benefit, like an opportunity to move within a heavy cast time spec. This does none of those. Someone dropped the ball when they could have given this the Haunting Spirits visual and instead went for some barely visible 'twinkle' which is absurd and only makes it harder to track. And we're already casting infinity instant-cast soulless spells, which hit for nothing, so while the benefit is there, you barely feel it.

Soul Effigy. There's a special place in hell for this. Not only is it an awful 'dot throttle', doubling the amount of work required to achieve "normal", it's also awful in the UI consuming the focus target, it's placed behind you at feet, meaning you have to place it (ideally in melee for AoE synergy), and it's targetable by pets, making 'assist' entirely unusable if you have this talent. Even for those who thought this was a good idea because 'if you like to multidot', it's still terribly implemented for that goal.

Phantom Singularity. Literally the only spell in our arsenal that feels like it is doing something. It's a great button to press, but that comes around far too infrequently. Adds in fights, and in dungeons aren't on 1 minute timers, so it's just not always going to be there when you need it. It's self limiting in that respect, which makes it questionable. It's definitely the nicest spell on the row, and without a massive cast time as Cataclysm had, it feels much more user friendly when it is ready - I'd honestly take a 1.5s cast on it to cast it more often.

Soul Conduit is not an exciting passive option, it feels weak because it's barely noticable and doesn't really have an obvious synergy with other spells like Effigy has.

Soul Shards. Can we please please have them back on our character? Please? It looks cool, and it's so much easier to track than modding our interface even further. Please.

All in all, the spec feels like it has an awful lot of buttons, and awful lot going on, but nothing really individually that actually does anything. There's a lot of duplication of purpose and effect that needn't be there.

Demonology
I'm sure there's good reason you didn't put a combo-point system on a caster before, but as with so many other issues with the spec that were given as to why not to make a summoner spec; they just went out the window. Plainly Rogues with their combo points are not a popular class, often described as slow and repetitive; which Demo is in spades.

Demonic Empowerment. I've not seen anyone, anyone say anything good about this spell. It's just a soulless, empty cast time you add on to each and every summon. It's tedious. It has no feedback at all. It makes your weak minions slightly less weak, but not strong enough to notice individually.

It also takes a very long time to build up that "army" of Imps and Felstalkers, given they're all on cast times, with a cast time on top of them, and require building resources from a cast time spell. I think 14 seconds is the time given for it to reach "normal" levels. In a dungeon, you'll be through at least one trash pack in that time.

Doom. It's always been bad for dungeons, so doesn't really fit the 'new game' that includes Mythic+. In many cases, the only reason you'd apply it, is to get your Darkglare to attack the thing.

Darkglare. Why change this from the very popular brand new Inquisitor to this tedious 2006 eyeball by the way? Just an aside. The fact it needs Doom to prompt it to attack things is bad. It was bad for the Doomguard in Cataclysm, it's still bad now. Nothing really changed to make it not bad, so why you think this is no longer bad, I don't know. Make it just attack stuff we attack, like the new assist is supposed to do.

Implosion. Very obviously this will reset your ridiculous ramp up to deliver some burst. I think this is a problem, as the adds themselves may not be a major priority, and a few weeks of progress will render this spell redundant when every other spec in the game can cleave things down without having to reset their boss throughput. Spells shouldn't become redundant like this.

Guardian pets in general are horrible when it comes to switching targets. That's a problem. Having a massive chunk of your damage continue to attack a target that for very good reason you might want to actually stop on to prioritise something else, is a big part of encounter design.

This spec clearly wasn't designed with encounter design or dungeons in mind.

[Inshabel]

Wow, this forum is making me aware of a lot problems I didn't even know I had, kind of a downer