Elemental, worth the risk?

[Deleted]

ST in pre patch or in actual Legion content? Because in Legion, at 110 our ST sustained is mediocre - ST burst is only topped by fire mage, which is topped by Shadow during execute (sub 35%). And sorry, but if you watch FinalBoss or Preach or whatever other videos which werent made by actual people who play specs its an indicator that they're fishing for website/video clicks. Ever noticed how every YouTube channel or news channel does videos on every current topic? Thats because they want to generate a stronger presence on google searches.

If you want to have real information based on actual facts then visit the class discord server, Earthshrine.

Finalboss actually mains a shaman, sure he knows more about enhancement than elemental but trying to discard him for no reason is not a good argument. I don't care about sims or what some people say. I believe in what I see with my own eyes and there is clearly good AOE potential for elemental with only a slight tuning in numbers. Every expansions every class in the freaking game has the forums flooded with "its over guys rerolling" just to be proven wrong when actually playing live or after a patch.

The AOE mechanics for elemental are quite fine actually. The fact that you all are just focusing on earthquake maelstrom to talk about AOE without paying attention to stormkeeper/chainlightning/aftershock/lightning rod and static overload really bothers me. Stop judging elemental without the artifact perks and especially without chainlightning

[Gaucho-]

Finalboss actually mains a shaman, sure he knows more about enhancement than elemental but trying to discard him for no reason is not a good argument. I don't care about sims or what some people say. I believe in what I see with my own eyes and there is clearly good AOE potential for elemental with only a slight tuning in numbers. Every expansions every class in the freaking game has the forums flooded with "its over guys rerolling" just to be proven wrong when actually playing live or after a patch.

The AOE mechanics for elemental are quite fine actually. The fact that you all are just focusing on earthquake maelstrom to talk about AOE without paying attention to stormkeeper/chainlightning/aftershock/lightning rod and static overload really bothers me. Stop judging elemental without the artifact perks and especially without chainlightning

The people who do sims and theorycrafting play this specs also. Were you on beta? Did you perticipate in any raid tests? From your own words, I'd assume no. Sims are even in favour of Elemental, since you cant simulate other people who also AoE or do damage in general. Elemental has a long build up time on AoE, LM is such a niche ability (even after the buff) that you only would take it on fights like Darmac because Asc is better on every non-add boss/phase (like Archimonde), Lightning Rod is not even an AoE ability (cleave/sustained ST).

[Deleted]

With ascentral swiftness and elemental mastery you can have pretty fast ramp up time. The other way is aftershock which refunds a part of earthquake cost.

I'm not saying elemental AOE is great right now but its nowhere near "trash tier", it looks fairly good if you take into account the burst potential of the spec,we cannot have it all (well...except...mages and dks)
Haven't tried liquid magma totem, it has been buffed today, is it decent AOE to compensate for the ramp up of EQ?

Shadow priest AOE is abysmal compared to elemental

[miffy23]

Why? He is correct. You cant DPS while moving, except you're a Mage. 2x Shimmer, 3x Ice Floes, Scorch, instant cast procs. From a pure playability point of view fire mage is an elemental on steroids. And well, just because you need a WeakAura for your resource bar or some flashy things around your character indicating Hot Streak doesnt create a *greater* skill discrepancy - Elemental *needs* such "UI fiddling" also. All mage specs have the same, if not a lower skill cap than Elemental. If you chose talents like Icefury, Elemental's rotation and awareness of your spec double anything. Its a big difference if you ES with 84 MS or 92 MS, but its a no-brainer to use Fire Blast after a crit, especially with guaranteed crits you get while in Combustion or after using Phoenix's Flame.

This game play also translates to frost and arcane - its nothing special. Maybe 6 years ago you were right, but certainly not for Legion's class design.

And that's why you see most mages hit the 95th percentile, right?....right?

If you think i'm just talking about Hot Streak you're oversimplifying the issue in order to make a very weak point.
You have your opinion, I have mine. In my opinion, min/maxing Elemental is far easier than on a Mage.

[Gaucho-]

And that's why you see most mages hit the 95th percentile, right?....right?

If you think i'm just talking about Hot Streak you're oversimplifying the issue in order to make a very weak point.
You have your opinion, I have mine. In my opinion, min/maxing Elemental is far easier than on a Mage.

Pretty hard to calculate something like this for "most mages", since even their unpopular specs have 2-3x more parses logged than Elemental in total. From what you listened as "hard to master" with fire mages looked like you were talking about Hotstreeaks - you're free to enlighten me what you were actually talking about. I'm playing mage myself, and not too bad. So I think we could've a good discussion.

[miffy23]

Pretty hard to calculate something like this for "most mages", since even their unpopular specs have 2-3x more parses logged than Elemental in total. From what you listened as "hard to master" with fire mages looked like you were talking about Hotstreeaks - you're free to enlighten me what you were actually talking about. I'm playing mage myself, and not too bad. So I think we could've a good discussion.

The difference, in my opinion, lies in the fact so much depends on optimal 2m burst windows on Fire, which require more planning and awareness than Ascendance does. Furthermore, Elemental gameplay is extremely "on rails" and predictable, while Fire - although heavily adjusted in Legion to make it more reliable (hence why it's so good) - is much more of a reactive playstyle.
I've seen the difference even between a 95%+ mage and an 85% one (on a regular basis, not a single fight) among my own raiders, and it's pretty humongous. Conversely, I had little to no problems teaching a fellow Shaman applicant and getting him to within a few % of me in no time.

Honestly I consider almost every other caster spec to be harder to master than Elemental, Icefury may be the first time we ever get a mechanic that requires a little bit more awareness. Not saying that's bad, I rather enjoy Ele. But I truly believe pretty much every other caster spec has a higher skill ceiling. As long as you know your basic priority in Ele and are not wasting GCDs, you're already well on your way to maximizing your output for your gear.

[fengosa]

Finalboss actually mains a shaman, sure he knows more about enhancement than elemental but trying to discard him for no reason is not a good argument. I don't care about sims or what some people say. I believe in what I see with my own eyes and there is clearly good AOE potential for elemental with only a slight tuning in numbers. Every expansions every class in the freaking game has the forums flooded with "its over guys rerolling" just to be proven wrong when actually playing live or after a patch.

The AOE mechanics for elemental are quite fine actually. The fact that you all are just focusing on earthquake maelstrom to talk about AOE without paying attention to stormkeeper/chainlightning/aftershock/lightning rod and static overload really bothers me. Stop judging elemental without the artifact perks and especially without chainlightning

This, elemental has a number of tools for aoe and you didn't even mention LMT or lava beam spam for burst. It's up to the player to find talents suit a given fight or dungeon and to play things out properly.

[Gaucho-]

The difference, in my opinion, lies in the fact so much depends on optimal 2m burst windows on Fire, which require more planning and awareness than Ascendance does. Furthermore, Elemental gameplay is extremely "on rails" and predictable, while Fire - although heavily adjusted in Legion to make it more reliable (hence why it's so good) - is much more of a reactive playstyle.
I've seen the difference even between a 95%+ mage and an 85% one (on a regular basis, not a single fight) among my own raiders, and it's pretty humongous. Conversely, I had little to no problems teaching a fellow Shaman applicant and getting him to within a few % of me in no time.

Maybe it'd help you if you dont compare the specs before 110, but even than fire mage is easy to play and as easy to master.

Precast Pyroblast
1 Rune of Power (talent)
2 Combustion
3 Phoenix's Flames
4 Fire Blast
5 Pyroblast
6 Fire Blast
7 Flame On (talent)
8 Pyroblast
9 Fire Blast
10 Pyroblast
11 Fire Blast
12 Pyroblast
13 Phoenix's Flames
14 Pyroblast
15 Phoenix's Flames

As you see, you just fish for 1 Hotstreak before using Combustion, after this points its just Phoenix's Flames (guaranteed crit) and Fire Blast (increased crit chance) to get another Hotstreak. For me this is not as "hard" as making sure your Flame Shock doesnt expire during Asc (no class trinket in Legion), estimating your MS gain to ES with 100 MS during Asc (big difference if you ES with less than 100 MS during Asc). When to use Stormkeeper correctly? When to use Icefury/LM/etc. all this things have to be considered, and mage lacks similiar setup requirements. Just because Asc removes the LvB cooldown, its not optimal to just spam LvB.

I wont comment on any personal experience, since its pointless. Like someone said in a different thread: "I had a dog who didnt bark, so all dogs dont bark".

Honestly I consider almost every other caster spec to be harder to master than Elemental, Icefury may be the first time we ever get a mechanic that requires a little bit more awareness. Not saying that's bad, I rather enjoy Ele. But I truly believe pretty much every other caster spec has a higher skill ceiling. As long as you know your basic priority in Ele and are not wasting GCDs, you're already well on your way to maximizing your output for your gear.

Heavily disagree with statement. Elemental has been more complex than most specs atleast since WoD brought ability pruning, and specs like Arcane and MM raised to the top.

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This, elemental has a number of tools for aoe and you didn't even mention LMT or lava beam spam for burst. It's up to the player to find talents suit a given fight or dungeon and to play things out properly.

If you start to interpret skill sets like this it all becomes pointless. Using Lava Beam for AoE is a waste of Asc altogether. I also talked about LM and other things lateralsx5 mentioned in my post.

[miffy23]

Maybe it'd help you if you dont compare the specs before 110, but even than fire mage is easy to play and as easy to master.



As you see, you just fish for 1 Hotstreak before using Combustion, after this points its just Phoenix's Flames (guaranteed crit) and Fire Blast (increased crit chance) to get another Hotstreak. For me this is not as "hard" as making sure your Flame Shock doesnt expire during Asc (no class trinket in Legion), estimating your MS gain to ES with 100 MS during Asc (big difference if you ES with less than 100 MS during Asc). When to use Stormkeeper correctly? When to use Icefury/LM/etc. all this things have to be considered, and mage lacks similiar setup requirements. Just because Asc removes the LvB cooldown, its not optimal to just spam LvB.

Here's Elemental's opener:

FE
FS
Asc
LB
LB
LB
(ES)
LB
LB
LB
LB

etc, not 100% perfect but just the basics. You gave me the perfect example of why Fire's burst window is harder to pull off. Ele's is incredibly easy to learn and master. Stormkeeper and Icefury add some awareness requirements, for sure. It's not as easy to maximize as it was in WoD, also true. But I still maintain it is far more predictable and easier to learn than Fire *shrug*

I wont comment on any personal experience, since its pointless. Like someone said in a different thread: "I had a dog who didnt bark, so all dogs dont bark".

Sure, but keep in my mind that I am stating nothing but my opinion, very clearly so, and that there is no factual basis for claiming that spec X is objectively harder or easier. I'm sure for some Ele seems harder. In my experience, and in the experience of pretty much all of my caster DPS players in my raid team, Ele is easier.

Heavily disagree with statement. Elemental has been more complex than most specs atleast since WoD brought ability pruning, and specs like Arcane and MM raised to the top.

Are you saying Arcane was easier than Ele here? Because that couldn't really be further from the truth imo. But again, personal opinions.

If you start to interpret skill sets like this it all becomes pointless. Using Lava Beam for AoE is a waste of Asc altogether. I also talked about LM and other things lateralsx5 mentioned in my post.

Actually it isn't, as of the latest sims iirc. The LM buff might have helped a little, but iirc Lava Beam spam was still outperforming it on most cleave situations.


edit: btw we could take this to #Earthshrine if you like. Derailing here I guess.

[Gaucho-]

Nah, no need to take this to Earthshrine, if we continue discussing personal opinions there's no point. If I want to hear personal opinion I'll watch Preach's videos, not to sound too harsh, haha.

Actually it isn't, as of the latest sims iirc. The LM buff might have helped a little, but iirc Lava Beam spam was still outperforming it on most cleave situations.

AoE is not cleave.

[miffy23]

Nah, no need to take this to Earthshrine, if we continue discussing personal opinions there's no point. If I want to hear personal opinion I'll watch Preach's videos, not to sound too harsh, haha.



AoE is not cleave.

I'm simply assuming the post you replied to wasn't talking purely about 6-7+ target sustain.
And Earthshrine has channels for this stuff, and a separate number-crunching channel :P

I like Preach's stuff, I don't know why people keep going off at him, he does always clearly state that it's his personal opinion.

But yes, I don't think there's any way of factually categorizing this spec or that spec as definitely easier, with a few exceptions (hello, hunters). I'm simply basing it on my experience throughout MoP and WoD when I rarely had issues bringing Ele players up to par, while witnessing pretty wide skillgaps among the mages.

[Jotaux]

Finalboss actually mains a shaman, sure he knows more about enhancement than elemental but trying to discard him for no reason is not a good argument.

From talking with other shamans and my own experience, we were shocked when we found out he mained a shaman because of his poor grasp of mechanics.

[miffy23]

From talking with other shamans and my own experience, we were shocked when we found out he mained a shaman because of his poor grasp of mechanics.

Yes, I can imagine how many things shock you on a daily basis.

[Jotaux]

You are clearly overdramatizing things just like any whiner on all the WoW forums. I hear this kind of BS talk about every spec in the game, even from DKs and mages so please OP don't listen to this kind of doomsday misinformation and wait until raids are released before making pretentious claims about how broken a spec is.

Thats not true at all, I think Enhance is in a great place and thats why I switched to it. Theres a reason elemental shamans are running away from the spec.

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Yes, I can imagine how many things shock you on a daily basis.

We also laughed at your posts.

[Jibberjabber]

Finallboss is either a complete idiot or a genius depending on your perspective. He makes content to get ppl to sub/watch not to inform. He is the 24 hours news cycle for wow.

[Gaucho-]

Either way, if you arent able to estimate the "viability" of a spec by yourself, then you probably dont raid high enough where this "viability" would matter.

[blehmeh]

As a long time Ele player, I say wait for the inevitable 7.1 bandaid fixes first, then decide.

Or go Mage and don't worry about anything ever again, become perma-viable.

[binkenstein]

If you like how Elemental plays in Legion, play Elemental.
If you don't, don't.

If you're worried about not playing the most optimal flavour of the month spec then make sure you have an alt available. Generally speaking if you're at a level where you're doing split runs you'll have this already, otherwise you're probably not hardcore enough to make class swapping worth it.

I'll also say that if you're not able to objectively analyse Elemental to work out whether you should/shouldn't play it then you're probably not raiding at a level where you need to worry about it.

[Jotaux]

I'll also say that if you're not able to objectively analyse Elemental to work out whether you should/shouldn't play it then you're probably not raiding at a level where you need to worry about it.

You should be concerned about your class at all levels of play.

[Reze93]

You should be concerned about your class at all levels of play.

I completely agree with this. I feel like it undermines a huge majority of the player base and their worries. Yes, the content we do does not require even close to the min/maxing mythic progression requires, but to say it doesn't matter at all if the class does shit damage compared to other specs if we only do heroic? Nah.
On a side note, I think I'm leaning toward enhancement, then leveling a Mage within the first two weeks. If ele is ok, I'll stop my Mage and just continue with the shammy.