[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Onslaught49]

really? from just trying a premade 810 character, i noticed i had waay too much downtime with Frostscythe where as with RA i practically had none and were able to keep icy talens up almost always :/

[Hctaz]

Yeah most of them were using T18 and in some cases T18 with 1 or even 2 legendary. Whats i wonder is if that raid data with T18 was part of their metrics used for calculating their class tuning changes.


This is the general use Frost build I'm thinking of running, by general use i mean for solo and 5 mans etc http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/d...ght/frost/M7pM its just the first teir I'm kinda iffy on SS or IT, I'm kinda leaning more towards SS.

Interesting. I guess we really don't know how the razorice thing affects us yet. Since before it was only affecting two of our abilities and not the majority of them then SS was just always better since we didn't actually lose much from not having a 5 stack.... hmmm... I guess this throws a wrench in the plan but... SS does seem to hit like a truck. What's the benefit if IT anyways? It doesn't do anything for us aside for more melee swings, though I guess it's better for adds and trash due to the nature of not needing to actually stack RI on the target first. Is it really better for dungeoning than ME is though? ME with FScy it just so good for AoE at least from what I can tell.

Anyway: Do we have an idea on talent set ups for raiding? I've been using SS, HoW, Icecap, doesn't matter, Permafrost, Sycthe and Glacial Advance for most everything honestly. Is there ever a fight you wouldn't want to take FScy to? I'm assuming any boss that spawns even a single add for a long enough period of time would warrant the ability over RA.

What would the AoE build look like? Is IT or ME? And then is there a period in time where Avalanche would be better than Icecap? I see you've taken it for your 5 man build but 5 mans are generally all about the trash packs and not so much the boss fights. Like if there's a fight with heavy AoE on a 1 minute timer I'm assuming Avalanche would be better since it's AoE damage that lines up with the phase required for it perfectly. And then if Obliteration of BoS EVER used? I know Obliteration can be pretty good with FScy but is it worth taking it over GA which is just some pretty good burst AoE damage on a much shorter CD?

[Maxweii]

really? from just trying a premade 810 character, i noticed i had waay too much downtime with Frostscythe where as with RA i practically had none and were able to keep icy talens up almost always :/

Depending on your gear you will have totally different priority, rotation, downtime, ect. Were you using Frostscythe on single target in that test? Because you need certain stats to even make that viable, and as such your stats would influence how your rotation is with using it.

[Onslaught49]

yeah i was using Frostscythe on single target killing machine procs, aside from that i was using obliterate but as you say i probably need better gear before having Frostscythe in rotation (pre-made gear has VERY low crit and haste).

[Life-Binder]

without any tier set bonuses (either T18 or T19) is Unholy still ahead of Frost for ~overall 5-man DPS ? Or is Frost at least competitive as far as mythic dungeon DPS goes ?

[Maxweii]

yeah i was using Frostscythe on single target killing machine procs, aside from that i was using obliterate but as you say i probably need better gear before having Frostscythe in rotation (pre-made gear has VERY low crit and haste).

Yeah you need a certain level of mastery before Frostscythe is worth it single target, likely premade gear doesn't do that for you. Also haste is generally pretty important for DK's now, so having low haste didn't help that.

without any tier set bonuses (either T18 or T19) is Unholy still ahead of Frost for ~overall 5-man DPS ? Or is Frost at least competitive as far as mythic dungeon DPS goes ?

Likely as is Frost will be competitive in mythics, especially because Sindragosa's Fury is so strong for cheesing stronger trash packs.

[Raiju]

Generally unholy blows frost and indeed most melee out of the water for mythic+. Frost can be game some massive dps with breath but you'll need to be very careful with avenging affix.

[Onslaught49]

ah ok last question, is the stat priority still str>crit>haste>mastery>versatility?

[RuneDK]

I wish FSc would proc Rime. Would we be OP? Perhaps that could be a future set bonus...

I don't....That gameplay would be insanely boring. I like having to "weave" in obliterates.

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Interesting. I guess we really don't know how the razorice thing affects us yet. Since before it was only affecting two of our abilities and not the majority of them then SS was just always better since we didn't actually lose much from not having a 5 stack.... hmmm... I guess this throws a wrench in the plan but... SS does seem to hit like a truck. What's the benefit if IT anyways? It doesn't do anything for us aside for more melee swings, though I guess it's better for adds and trash due to the nature of not needing to actually stack RI on the target first. Is it really better for dungeoning than ME is though? ME with FScy it just so good for AoE at least from what I can tell.

Anyway: Do we have an idea on talent set ups for raiding? I've been using SS, HoW, Icecap, doesn't matter, Permafrost, Sycthe and Glacial Advance for most everything honestly. Is there ever a fight you wouldn't want to take FScy to? I'm assuming any boss that spawns even a single add for a long enough period of time would warrant the ability over RA.

What would the AoE build look like? Is IT or ME? And then is there a period in time where Avalanche would be better than Icecap? I see you've taken it for your 5 man build but 5 mans are generally all about the trash packs and not so much the boss fights. Like if there's a fight with heavy AoE on a 1 minute timer I'm assuming Avalanche would be better since it's AoE damage that lines up with the phase required for it perfectly. And then if Obliteration of BoS EVER used? I know Obliteration can be pretty good with FScy but is it worth taking it over GA which is just some pretty good burst AoE damage on a much shorter CD?

The synergy IT has with Frozen Pulse is astounding. Avalanche should already be the goto for any fights with aoe and possibly ST if you crit often enough(which in HFC with tier bonus you definitely do).

[Exerionx]

I know this isn't really the right place to ask, but it's the most relevant I can find.

Does anyone know if Reaper's Harvest Heroic Titanforged (750) is any good for frost? Or am I just better off using BoA trinket and Empty Drinking Horn Heroic or something?

[Dracovian]

I know this isn't really the right place to ask, but it's the most relevant I can find.

Does anyone know if Reaper's Harvest Heroic Titanforged (750) is any good for frost? Or am I just better off using BoA trinket and Empty Drinking Horn Heroic or something?

BoA is way better.

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without any tier set bonuses (either T18 or T19) is Unholy still ahead of Frost for ~overall 5-man DPS ? Or is Frost at least competitive as far as mythic dungeon DPS goes ?

Without chaining a bunch of Fsc with T18 Unholy destroys Frost. It's just the nature of a proc-reliant class that center about a poorly designed mechanic (Obliterate).

[Exerionx]

BoA is way better.

Damn, kinda sad haha, was happy with the luck on that

[Dracovian]

Damn, kinda sad haha, was happy with the luck on that

Yeah, Titanforged things are exciting but that trinket is really really bad. Sorry.

[Hctaz]

The synergy IT has with Frozen Pulse is astounding. Avalanche should already be the goto for any fights with aoe and possibly ST if you crit often enough(which in HFC with tier bonus you definitely do).

I... wanted to take you seriously but Frozen Pulse? That talent is like utter garbo from what I've seen/heard. HoW is miles better even for AoE. I suppose I could see Avalanche being used in AoE fights.

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I legitimately haven't seen anything about IT or Frozen Pulse being a thing ever on any guide, forum post, simulator, or the google doc that the DKs came up with be it level 100 prepatch or level 110.

[Piz813]

I... wanted to take you seriously but Frozen Pulse? That talent is like utter garbo from what I've seen/heard. HoW is miles better even for AoE. I suppose I could see Avalanche being used in AoE fights.

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I legitimately haven't seen anything about IT or Frozen Pulse being a thing ever on any guide, forum post, simulator, or the google doc that the DKs came up with be it level 100 prepatch or level 110.

This your personal feelings? It's wrong. I have logs proving fozen pulse is third top damage dealer. On live and on beta even before the razor ice fix. Maybe you meant avalanche?

[Exerionx]

Yeah, Titanforged things are exciting but that trinket is really really bad. Sorry.

Yeah, oh well, gets replaced in less than a week regardless.

[Hctaz]

This your personal feelings? It's wrong. I have logs proving fozen pulse is third top damage dealer. On live and on beta even before the razor ice fix. Maybe you meant avalanche?

No, actually haha.
Stuff like the frost DK FaQ google doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.8irysmoyffdo

as well as multiple other credible sources and personal testing. Seems like it's good but only if you can get it to work and that would mean that you're essentially really unlucky with resource procs or you're dumping one solo rune on nothing just to get this thing to work. I mean using one rune on a KM Fscy might be that bad... but you'd never just want to use a rune for no reason other than to have no runes solely for this talent. Just seems bad. Like.. "Oh i just used FScy and it didn't crit but hey now my auto attacks are useful"
Generally speaking, I'm ALWAYS using an ability currently on live. I suppose at lower levels of haste this won't be a thing but I'm currently only at 16% haste.


Edit: The google doc is stated to be a work in progress but it has been updated semi recently. Like in the last week or so as far as I can tell today.

[Hoeth]

No, actually haha.
Stuff like the frost DK FaQ google doc https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.8irysmoyffdo

as well as multiple other credible sources and personal testing. Seems like it's good but only if you can get it to work and that would mean that you're essentially really unlucky with resource procs or you're dumping one solo rune on nothing just to get this thing to work. I mean using one rune on a KM Fscy might be that bad... but you'd never just want to use a rune for no reason other than to have no runes solely for this talent. Just seems bad. Like.. "Oh i just used FScy and it didn't crit but hey now my auto attacks are useful"
Generally speaking, I'm ALWAYS using an ability currently on live. I suppose at lower levels of haste this won't be a thing but I'm currently only at 16% haste.


Edit: The google doc is stated to be a work in progress but it has been updated semi recently. Like in the last week or so as far as I can tell today.

You should stop listening to the nonsense on this and other forums and look at actual logs. You have been complaining about how bad frost is now and is going to be in Legion, all over this forum, yet you are ignorant of one of the most powerful talents the spec has. This should be a clear signal that perhaps you don't understand the entire situation, aren't as adept with the spec as you could be, and would gain more from analyzing fight logs of players who clearly do know what they are doing.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you are just falling in with the hyperbole and general bitching of subpar players. Instead of being part of the problem, perhaps you should instead try to learn from the better players and find out what they do to play the spec successfully?

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How do you MMO Champions feel about Frost DK being the only Mongo Spec next to BM Hunter in Legion?

I assume by "Mongo" you mean easy or brain dead?

If so, then you likely fall in with the 95% of players complaining about how shitty the spec is, and not with the 5% who kick ass with it. If you were in the latter group, you would realize it isn't "Mongo" at all.

[Hctaz]

This should be a clear signal that perhaps you don't understand the entire situation, aren't as adept with the spec as you could be, and would gain more from analyzing fight logs of players who clearly do know what they are doing. Instead of being part of the problem, perhaps you should instead try to learn from the better players and find out what they do to play the spec

I assume by "Mongo" you mean easy or brain dead?

If so, then you likely fall in with the 95% of players complaining about how shitty the spec is, and not with the 5% who kick ass with it. If you were in the latter group, you would realize it isn't "Mongo" at all.

See this right here is the part that annoyed me the most about your post. I'll ask this first though: On what means is this talent the best talent? Are we talking level 100 or level 110? Single target, AoE, or just always? If we're referring to 110 then I have literally zero opportunity to test it unfortunately and solely have to rely on other dks who are doing so. If the majority of people I consider to be notable have mentioned that HoW is significantly better but the HIGHEST SUPER UPPER ECHELON of the spec has hidden knowledge I have yet to see anywhere then I will have zero indication that this is the case, especially considering the DK forums are 90% unholy theory crafting and 10% "Frost is fine but we won't actually discuss why it's fine"

On to my rant about your presumed judgment of my skill with the spec:

I don't have the means to physically test the spec in all its glory considering I'm a part of the no beta club but in terms of my actual ability with the spec, you're 100% wrong. In Cata and in MoP i was easily in the top 5% of frost DK dps on each and every fight in both heroic 25 man Siege and Heroic 25 man Firelands and DS with 97-99 percentiles not uncommon to me as well. On top of this: The other dk in my Cata guild was even better at the spec than I was. He placed 97th percentile on average and at one point, even held the 2nd place DPS score for heroic Beth'tilac 25 man. He and I would constantly work on theorycrafting for this spec. My average though was 95 percentile across the entirety of every single fight in Siege and 96 percentile for both Firelands and DS. My history with frost is precisely why I've been so vocal about my concerns with frost as a whole, as I feel like the years I've invested into frost will go to waste this coming expansion. I have been precisely the player you speak of who is so adept with his skill at frost that he makes it look good even when it's arguably worse than unholy, but from the information I've seen thus far, it has looked like frost is completely dead in comparison to unholy.

Also: I was under the impression that the google docs page was being created by highly skilled and knowledgeable dk players. I'd love to be in contact with the upper echelon of frost DKs but I can't seem to ever find them posting their knowledge. The "notable" players who do are the same people who post the abomination that is Icy Veins and WoWhead's guides which are, at times, incredibly laughable and full of horrible misinformation. Link me to where this information is shared so I can gain some useful insight. I honestly don't know where beta logs are even posted.


Edit edit: Now I'm curious about some of the information I have heard though. I've read that Freezing Fog is only useful in conjunction with Icy Talons. I was also under the impression that Shattering Strikes was just outright better at single target. This would imply, to me, that Freezing Fog is not the "best" choice for the spec and would only be useful in AoE situation where you choose both Freezing Fog, and Icy Talons and for single target the best choices are Horn of Winter, and Shattering Strikes. Is this no longer the case?

[Gemini Soul]

I... wanted to take you seriously but Frozen Pulse? That talent is like utter garbo from what I've seen/heard. HoW is miles better even for AoE. I suppose I could see Avalanche being used in AoE fights.

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I legitimately haven't seen anything about IT or Frozen Pulse being a thing ever on any guide, forum post, simulator, or the google doc that the DKs came up with be it level 100 prepatch or level 110.

This is my personal view of Frozen Pulse
Frozen Pulse is a nice talent but it forces you into Icy Talons and vice versa, and into some regard it makes RA more appealing. Frozen Pulse works when we have zero runes up, for Icy Talons to work we need to do steady Rune then RP spending which works great but when Runic Empowerment procs it screws over Frozen Pulse. IT/FP can work great on a very limited movement fight, with IT only lasting 6 seconds it can and will fall off a lot on a heavy movement fight. It has the potential to do great dmg but it doesn't take much to keep that dmg from happening.