will MM be the best spec at 110?

[Deleted]

Obviously, if such an extreme job exists and you are assigned to it, you are going to pick BM.
Are you going to invest all your AP on the BM artifact just in case this situation happens?
I don't think so.

I m just trying to point out, that the best spec to support your raid, is not allways the one that does a few % more DPS for you personally.

[Wilfire]

Azortharion, if you are going to argue based on facts then please drop the assumption that a player can perform as well in a real raid situation as a computer can in a simulation, that just isn't happening.

[Makro]

I m just trying to point out, that the best spec to support your raid, is not allways the one that does a few % more DPS for you personally.

Really?
Why would you pick BM in case you had to move 75% of the encounter? Because it would do more DPS than MM in that particular situation.

It seems to me like you guys are pretending not to get azor's point just for the sake of arguing with him.

[Geran]

"Mine is bigger" topic here.

Lets assume the simulations run by theorycrafters are correct (They always try to get the more accurate result but they don't always succeed).
We can accept one of the specs has a higher potential dps ceiling than others, but as combats aren't always the same (different people(class chars), rng numbers, different tactics, latency, skill... ) results in real combat will never be the same than simulation (where the conditions are defined at start and not changed).

So, best spec is not the one who has the higher dps potential, it is the one who helps you achieve the result you want easier (or fastest, or with less damage received or...)

[Deleted]

Really?
Why would you pick BM in case you had to move 75% of the encounter? Because it would do more DPS than MM in that particular situation.

It seems to me like you guys are pretending not to get azor's point just for the sake of arguing with him.

No MM would do more DPS, because if you play MM your raidlead will find someone else to do the movement job, simple as that. And that is what is not taken into consideration.

BTW. im not saying that BM is the way to go, or is better than MM, i just think some advantages of Bm are underestimated in the discussion.

[Ute]

@Azortharion: yeah, you're right about being a burden, but by your logic, not playing the best class/spec combo is also a burden. By your logic, every DPS should be rerolling Subtlety, Shadow, or Fire right (or whatever the best class/spec is at 100, I'm not even sure right now)? Do Hunters bring any raid utility that justifies them getting a raid slot over one of these?

There has to be some amount of reasonable flexibility in a raid to allow people to play what they want within some margin or you end up with a raid full of one spec/class and probably a lot of relatively unhappy people. Does this mean that I'm playing BM in legion? Nope, I rerolled a Shadow Priest!

[Aldare]

@Azortharion: yeah, you're right about being a burden, but by your logic, not playing the best class/spec combo is also a burden. By your logic, every DPS should be rerolling Subtlety, Shadow, or Fire right (or whatever the best class/spec is at 100, I'm not even sure right now)? Do Hunters bring any raid utility that justifies them getting a raid slot over one of these?

There has to be some amount of reasonable flexibility in a raid to allow people to play what they want within some margin or you end up with a raid full of one spec/class and probably a lot of relatively unhappy people. Does this mean that I'm playing BM in legion? Nope, I rerolled a Shadow Priest!

The answer to that would be that for the sake of loot distribution a raiding guild will prefer to have more of a spread in the classes they bring. That doesn't mean stacking won't happen to some degree, we saw it with Aspect of the Fox in WoD before that was removed, and maybe there will be some new mechanic in Legion that makes a certain spec or class really strong.

[Deleted]

@Azortharion: yeah, you're right about being a burden, but by your logic, not playing the best class/spec combo is also a burden. By your logic, every DPS should be rerolling Subtlety, Shadow, or Fire right (or whatever the best class/spec is at 100, I'm not even sure right now)? Do Hunters bring any raid utility that justifies them getting a raid slot over one of these?

There has to be some amount of reasonable flexibility in a raid to allow people to play what they want within some margin or you end up with a raid full of one spec/class and probably a lot of relatively unhappy people. Does this mean that I'm playing BM in legion? Nope, I rerolled a Shadow Priest!

If there would be no downside in stacking the class that does the most dmg, every somewhat competetive guild would at least try to do so. But as said, the loot distribution wouldn t work that way, and also you would be missing some important class abilitys or advantages.

[Deleted]

Guys can you pls tell me tldr version of your discussion

[Smog]

Guys can you pls tell me tldr version of your discussion

The tl;dr is that MM is the better raiding spec, but people that want to play BM will perform amazing stunts of logical and verbal gymnastics to justify doing so.

[Azortharion]

azortharion

The mistake you make is, that your only arguing with DPS.

For example, lets say there is an encounter where you need someone to move like 75 % of the time to do some kind of job. If you have a BM hunter great, if you dont you maybe have to use a class that looses like 20 % - 30 % dmg doing this job, thats more than the difference between BM and MM and therefore you would be a burden for playing MM to your raid, because MM is the suboptimal specc for this encounter, since you playing BM would lead to more raid DPS overall.

I am arguing for Marksmanship from a basis of mechanical superiority, not DPS. Mechanics are what kills encounters, the movement argument is incredibly small compared to the mechanical advantages of MM. There are no fights that require 75% movement either, hyperbolic examples don't make a point. Please point out to me a fight in Emerald Nightmare where this is even vaguely the case.

- - - Updated - - -

Azortharion, if you are going to argue based on facts then please drop the assumption that a player can perform as well in a real raid situation as a computer can in a simulation, that just isn't happening.

This is a silly argument too, given that it is very easy to outperform simulations, and most/many people do. Not everyone does, but Beast Mastery being so fucking easy on any # of targets does not make it more mechanically superior. Just means you might do more DPS than a sucky hunter on Nythendra.

[Ute]

The answer to that would be that for the sake of loot distribution a raiding guild will prefer to have more of a spread in the classes they bring. That doesn't mean stacking won't happen to some degree, we saw it with Aspect of the Fox in WoD before that was removed, and maybe there will be some new mechanic in Legion that makes a certain spec or class really strong.

Won't the *New and Improved Personal Loot* pretty much negate this argument?

[Aldare]

Won't the *New and Improved Personal Loot* pretty much negate this argument?

Most raiding guilds still won't use Personal Loot.

[Ute]

But they could right? Is there really a reason (other than wanting some sort of DKP system) to not use personal? I know Bliz has implied that personal is the best system for gearing players (the impression I got anyway).

[Kwaai]

Because efficiently spreading loot is important to the raid. You might want to funnel gear towards tanks so they don't flop over early on and then prioritize dps over healers so you can beat timers. Personal doesn't let you do that.

[Ute]

Because efficiently spreading loot is important to the raid. You might want to funnel gear towards tanks so they don't flop over early on and then prioritize dps over healers so you can beat timers. Personal doesn't let you do that.

Yeah, you're right. Seems reasonable to stack more than usual though.

[Quille1]

The tl;dr is that MM is the better raiding spec, but people that want to play BM will perform amazing stunts of logical and verbal gymnastics to justify doing so.

There are some people in this thread that could give Simone Biles a run for her money, it's true.

[Speedlance]

99.9% of playerbase will be significantly better geared than required for each mythic boss than needed, so even with a suboptimal spec you will kill the boss and are most likely only limited by uneven skill levels among members and are waiting for people to stop failing mechanics.
Play what you want unless you're fighting for top3.

[bumbumboris]

There are no fights that require 75% movement either, hyperbolic examples don't make a point. Please point out to me a fight in Emerald Nightmare where this is even vaguely the case.

True, there is no 75% movement fight.

But let us do it concrete:
What are the percent-numbers per boss the MM has to move waiting with aimed shot not beeing able to use (and loosing it)?

I think those numbers could bring some calculability, particularly for people who are scared due to movement situations.

Anybody here who dares to do some numbers..?

[Azortharion]

It's literally irrelevant (and not really calculable), Marksmanship could do 10% less in sims with no movement and it'd still be the pick for raiding.