"The Void is a more potent foe by far than the Burning Legion"

[Life-Binder]

IMHO the Old Gods raids/fights/lore so far have been definitely better than Legion stuff

CThun/AQ/Silithus events = win
Ulduar/Yogg = WIN
Sha = I thought they were pretty good
NZoth = has high hype, was the mastermind behind DW and is behind Azshara .. definitely great potential there


for Legion I only really liked WC3 ROC, WotA and this new Gul'Dan .. TBC and HFC demon stuff was eh

and the only intruguing demons of the BL are dreadlords by far and sometimes eredar

Titan worlds, Legion worlds, their conflict, THAT should have been the future of WoW's lore.

Im not sure why titan worlds factor into any of this or why they are WoWs future .. all the titan stuff/relics we need or want is already on Azeroth, which is OUR world

Legion Worlds - we just visited one on Mardum in DH intro, warlock order hall is on a legion world IIRC and high chance of going to Argus one day

the conflict is very much there, its just mostly Naaru now instead of actual Pantheon Titans

[Deleted]

fel should be the strongest. it has best things from both realms and it is stronger than its sister arcane.

[My User Name]

Chronicle volume 1 outright says that titans are more powerful than void lords.

[Deleted]

Spoken by a Naaru, possibly the oldest one still in existence. Page 263 of Illidan.

I think the Burning Legion is mostly strong in numbers, and it's hard to kill them for good cause they always come back. But the Void is probably stronger on an individual level, like it affects the mind and breaks people down. It's that whole Cthulu thing with the madness.

[Qualia]

@DarklingThrush: Is this really new? I think we know the Void is a more potent / greater threat since a long time ago. The possibility of a Void Titan (supposedly stronger than anything else in creation) alone makes them that dangerous, not even counting the massive threats from the Void Lords. The Legion is powerful, but Sargeras is allegedly < Void Titan (and there is only one Sargeras) and they would actually be much less of a threat without Sargeras & his commanders' leads.
(Edit: oh, didn't realize that MMO-C automatically tag the OP in now when you put a "@OP" in your post)

While the Old Gods are obviously hostile and outright malevolent, I've never been able to bring myself to trust the Naaru completely. There's something about an entity so obviously altruistic and good that kind of sets me on edge, and makes me suspect their motives. They've never done anything I could directly point to as self-serving or less than benevolent - but I wonder if they've got their own agendas; a greater plan that might not include the mortal races in the long term.

They actually don't care *that* much about mortal races, to be fair. They might be benevolent and they do care about their followers, but their ultimate goal is to combat the Legion and the Void. If they are that altruistic and good, they'd have a lot of problem with Illidan. Yet, in Illidan, even *before* knowing he was to be a champion of Light, the Sha'tar (A'dal's group) didn't think they need to wage war with Illidan, as "At this moment Illidan opposes the Legion. He is its enemy. We take advantage of this to gather our strength". And that's when Illidan was already kidnapping & creating Fel Orcs, enslaving Brokens, etc.

fel should be the strongest. it has best things from both realms and it is stronger than its sister arcane.

Fel is most destructive in general. I'm not sure if that makes most powerful energy - possibly if you are talking about destructive output only.

[Vynny]

Sargeras the allegedly strongest know thing in the universe, he is scared of the Void, essentially showing that the Void far surpasses him. He is the strongest of the titans, and it takes several titans to defeat one old god, as known during the sundering (wasn't it 4/5 Vs 1 and a titan still fell?) these are MINIONS of the Void

Read the Chronicle, it'll help you a bit. The Pantheon (titans minus Sargeras) had already fallen in their fight with Sargeras long before the Sundering ever happened. On top of that, there are only 2 known occasions that titans ever clashed with the old gods. The first time was when Sargeras discovered a world with a nascent titan soul sleeping inside of it that had been infected by the old god's corruption. Sargeras destroyed the planet and however many old gods were on it with one slash of his sword. The second time was when Aman'thul killed Y'shaarj. He literally reached down and pulled Y'shaarj out of the planet with one hand and then crushed him like a bug. If we wanna talk about how much power old gods have, I'd say that they'd be similar to a naaru (one that isn't fallen). I say this because if you look at the chronicles, there's a chart that depicts the primal forces of the universe and their respective representations, and the Naaru have a similar position in the light hierarchy to what the old gods have the in the void hierarchy although it's a littler different because while the void hierarchy goes void>shadow>void lord>old god the light hierarchy goes light>holy>naaru, so they have one less level to the hierarchy which means that the naaru may be more powerful than the old gods.

[Life-Binder]

Chronicle volume 1 outright says that titans are more powerful than void lords.

it does no such thing

[Combatbutler]

it does no such thing

It does say the void lords are envious of the titans power though.

[Aucald]

fel should be the strongest. it has best things from both realms and it is stronger than its sister arcane.

It's difficult to really weigh and measure the various energetic forces in the Warcraft Universe as "more powerful" or "stronger" in a pound-for-pound comparison, I' feel. Fel is outright more destructive than Arcane energy, that's for sure; but destructiveness doesn't necessarily translate to strength. The Arcane provides benefits and functionalities the Fel simply can't - the same with Light, and Shadow, and even Nature magic. It really seems to depend on the context and the caster's goals, but if chaos and destruction are your goal then the Fel would be the tool of choice,

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

@DarklingThrush: Is this really new? I think we know the Void is a more potent / greater threat since a long time ago. The possibility of a Void Titan (supposedly stronger than anything else in creation) alone makes them that dangerous, not even counting the massive threats from the Void Lords. The Legion is powerful, but Sargeras is allegedly < Void Titan (and there is only one Sargeras) and they would actually be much less of a threat without Sargeras & his commanders' leads.
(Edit: oh, didn't realize that MMO-C automatically tag the OP in now when you put a "@OP" in your post)


They actually don't care *that* much about mortal races, to be fair. They might be benevolent and they do care about their followers, but their ultimate goal is to combat the Legion and the Void. If they are that altruistic and good, they'd have a lot of problem with Illidan. Yet, in Illidan, even *before* knowing he was to be a champion of Light, the Sha'tar (A'dal's group) didn't think they need to wage war with Illidan, as "At this moment Illidan opposes the Legion. He is its enemy. We take advantage of this to gather our strength". And that's when Illidan was already kidnapping & creating Fel Orcs, enslaving Brokens, etc.


Fel is most destructive in general. I'm not sure if that makes most powerful energy - possibly if you are talking about destructive output only.

I remember there being huge debates here not so long ago regarding the relative power of Legion and Old Gods. We have learned, of course, since then, that the Old Gods have Void Lord masters who are an order of magnitude greater than them. This was just the first time I'd seen a somewhat authoritative source say this in such direct terms. Could the Naaru be wrong or misleading? How would I know? But my Draenei pally will tell you this is as authoritative as it gets.

[Life-Binder]

It does say the void lords are envious of the titans power though.

that quote comes directly after the quote describing how titans freely move in the universe, shaping their worlds, whereas Void Lords are stuck inside the shadow realm void dimension and cant/have great trouble manifesting

which means it can refer to them being envious of their freedom and ability to exist in the physical universe


furthermore, we KNOW as a fact (due to a Void Titan being > fel-Sargeras who is >= Pantheon) that a large void empowerment/infusion is greater than any other individual power currently known in Warcraft multiverse (with the possible exception of Azeroth herself) and considering void lords are literally made out of that very same void energy, its hard to imagine how they are weaker than regular titans

[Combatbutler]

that quote comes directly after the quote describing how titans freely move in the universe, shaping their worlds, whereas Void Lords are stuck inside the shadow realm void dimension and cant/have great trouble manifesting

which means it can refer to them being envious of their freedom and ability to exist in the physical universe


furthermore, we KNOW as a fact (due to a Void Titan being > fel-Sargeras who is >= Pantheon) that a large void empowerment/infusion is greater than any other individual power currently known in Warcraft multiverse (with the possible exception of Azeroth herself) and considering void lords are literally made out of that very same void energy, its hard to imagine how they are weaker than regular titans

Just saying the Argument can be made either way, I personally don't give a damn ;P

[purebalance]

we know this thanks to the chronicle.

it makes sense. it's one of the two primordial forces, existing long before creation. it makes sense that light and void should be the strongest sources of power to exist.

Not apparently since headcanon enthusiast Aquamonkey and others have sat and argued that the titans and Sargeras were stronger than the void.

[Life-Binder]

as far as different magics go (light & shadow vs fel/arcane):

(1) Chronicle directly states that Light and Shadow(Void) are the two fundamental forces .. to me fundamental also means msot powerful, but you can argue otherwise

(2) consider this ..: a Void (Dark) Titan is titan + void energy .. demonic Sargeras is a titan + fel energy .. regular titans wield arcane energies .. considering how the powerscaling between these goes (a Void Titan > Sargeras > titans), you could look at it: void/shadow > fel > arcane

[Qualia]

Not apparently since headcanon enthusiast Aquamonkey and others have sat and argued that the titans and Sargeras were stronger than the void.

Than the Void Lords *. There is a difference between the Void (including: void creatures, Old Gods, Void Lords, and potentially Void Titan) and the Void Lords here. Sargeras being more powerful than Void Lords, but less powerful than Void Titan, would still put the Void as a bigger threat - I don't remember seeing people arguing about Sargeras vs the Void power-wise before (if there was any, there probably were far few and between so I missed it), but frequently Sargeras vs the Void Lords.

As stated, the Void Lords don't have to be more powerful than Sargeras or the Pantheon (in fact, Chronicle implied the other way around) to be a greater and more potent threat. The potential of a Void Titan (supposedly more powerful than any other being in creation) being born is enough to put them at that place. Void Titan(s), however, aren't Void Lord(s).

You seems to have some unknown beef with Aquamonkey, but please at least get the facts straight.

[Aucald]

I don't think we know enough about the Void Lords yet to really say definitively whether they are or aren't stronger or more powerful than a Titan - they're kind of an unknown right now, and even if they aren't as personally powerful they could still be a considerable threat. Relative strength is a tricky thing in the Warcraft universe, and the lore is replete with ultra-powerful beings that have been laid out by forces that didn't seem to be a credible threat beforehand.

[Deleted]

Wait... does that mean shadow priests are "stronger" than warlocks?

Shadow Priests channel the Void, it's more potent than Warlock shadow magic, but it's also a lot more dangerous. As you channel the Void energies, it will whisper to you and potentially drive you insane.

[purebalance]

Than the Void Lords *. There is a difference between the Void (including: void creatures, Old Gods, Void Lords, and potentially Void Titan) and the Void Lords here. Sargeras being more powerful than Void Lords, but less powerful than Void Titan, would still put the Void as a bigger threat - I don't remember seeing people arguing about Sargeras vs the Void power-wise before (if there was any, there probably were far few and between so I missed it), but frequently Sargeras vs the Void Lords.

As stated, the Void Lords don't have to be more powerful than Sargeras or the Pantheon (in fact, Chronicle implied the other way around) to be a greater and more potent threat. The potential of a Void Titan (supposedly more powerful than any other being in creation) being born is enough to put them at that place. Void Titan(s), however, aren't Void Lord(s).

You seems to have some unknown beef with Aquamonkey, but please at least get the facts straight.

No there really isn't. So perhaps you should get YOUR facts straight. I have a beef with all of the headcanon folk on these forum which apparently it's yourself included. The void is a place. The rulers are the void lords.

[Qualia]

No there really isn't. So perhaps you should get YOUR facts straight. I have a beef with all of the headcanon folk on these forum which apparently it's yourself included. The void is a place. The rulers are the void lords.

There is a big difference between the Void and the Void Lords. If you can't even see it, then I suggest you to improve your reading comprehension skill. Do you, by chance, also consider the strength of president Obama the individual is the same as the strength of US?

The Void is a cosmic force, and exists in a realm outside reality but shades of it occasionally seep into reality. The Void Lords are beings of the Void, possibly its rulers. However, the threat of the Void including Void Lords and their creations (Old Gods, possibly Void Titans) + void creatures, not just the Void Lords themselves. The power of the Void Lords is just a part of the entire power of the Void. Sargeras and the Pantheon being more powerful than the Void Lords doesn't mean they'd be more powerful / dangerous than the force of the Void due to the potential of the Void Titans - supposedly more powerful than everything else ("No power in creation, not even the Pantheon, could stand against it."). In fact, one can argue that the "no power in creation" would include the Void Lords, and nothing we know would contradict it.

If you are adamant that being more powerful than the Void Lords must mean more powerful than the threat of the Void, feel free to find me any quote that states *ALL* (keep in mind the "all") the power of the Void is the same as the power of the Void Lords. Please. You seem to be against "headcanon", so surely you'd have canon information ready, yes? Your claims don't have much weight when the "headcanon folk on these forum" are the one quoting canonical information from books, game, twitter and such, while you don't.

Meanwhile, I'll give you canonical information by myself. Here we go:
- The Void Lords were envious of the adult Titans' power, but couldn't corrupt them:

These entities were known as the void lords, and they had long watched the Pantheon and their journey from world to world. Envious of their power, the void lords sought to corrupt one of the world-shaping titans into an instrument of their wills.
To achieve this goal, the void lords struggled to manifest in the physical universe. As they did so, their energies seeped into reality, warping some of the unsuspecting denizens of creations. Yet, the noble and virtuous titans proved impervious to this insidious corruption.

- Sargeras found the Void Lords out when they manifested, realized that they were far more powerful than the demons, but still didn't consider it important enough to stop his war and report to the Pantheon:

Through investigating these dark powers and where they originated from, Sargeras discovered that malign intelligences were spreading corruption throughout the cosmos.
These intelligences were the void lords, and they were far more powerful than demons. The presence of the void lords left Sargeras deeply troubled. He pondered what the powers of the Void were planning, and what their existences could mean for the universe.
Despite his unsettling discoveries, Sargeras continued waging his wars on demons.

Now tell me, can you say that there is 100% no chance for those quote to imply that the Void Lords aren't as powerful as the Titan? The more powerful were envious of the less powerful's power? (just power, kindly not add stuffs like "power to exist" or "power to fly around") And even the Sargeras / Titans > Void Lords group usually only say that it's *implied* so in Chronicle, while you seems so sure the other way around is true.

Edit: oh hey, just remembered. You were the one who claimed Metzen & Afrasiabi's Q&A WoG wasn't canon. Figures...

[Wyattbw09]

Sargeras the allegedly strongest know thing in the universe, he is scared of the Void, essentially showing that the Void far surpasses him. He is the strongest of the titans, and it takes several titans to defeat one old god, as known during the sundering (wasn't it 4/5 Vs 1 and a titan still fell?) these are MINIONS of the Void.

This is just wrong on a few points.

1) It is true that Sargeras is worried about the void. I'll even give you afraid of the void Lords if you want, however, it is not clear that his fear is founded on anything. If I am recalling Chronicle correctly, Sargeras becomes aware of the Void Lords and but never actually faces one or is directly tested by them. So our only real gauge of how powerful Void Lords are is that fact that Sargeras fears them, however, we have no idea if Sargeras' fear is founded.

2) The Old Gods are far far far beneath the Titans in terms of power. Aman'Thul casually plucked Y'Shaarj from Azeroth. The only reason the other Old Gods survived is because the Titan's could not easily extract the Old Gods without harming the titan inside Azeroth.