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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Not the point.

    The Dragon Soul did not belong in the current time, we cheated fate, the whole point of the Charge of the Aspects story is that Nozdormu had to be convinced that he had to "change" the Timeline to preserve it.
    I was correcting you, but way to try to build a strawman.

  2. #142
    Yeah, the Legion is always there. So they'll always be watching you, even while you sleep. Who knows what they wanna do to you then? Scary stuff.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Then it's even worse for the story. Again, if there is only 1 Legion, and all they have to do is destroy Azeroth in 1 timeline - and they can be in any universe, in any time they want - how come they didn't win already? All it takes is go back in time and destroy Azeroth when it was weak, without Alliance and Horde. Or go back even futher and destroy it when it was created. If that seems unfair, why newly regenerated Archimonde didn't go back in time to join his past self during Hyjal? This can be done as many times as he wants, resulting in Orcs, Humans and Night Elves literally swarmed and ragaved by an army of Archimondes.
    Most sensible explanation: They can't. Whatever time travel abilities they have, they apparently can't exist more than once at a time and can't simply go anywhen, either. Azeroth in particular, since apparently they can't go there at all unless somebody invites them in.

    Also keep in mind that it's significantly more effort to summon the higherups than the footfolk. Calling in an army of Archimondes might just not be resource efficient.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradingus View Post
    Yeah, the Legion is always there. So they'll always be watching you, even while you sleep. Who knows what they wanna do to you then? Scary stuff.
    Nah, Legion is pretty straight forward, they just want to destroy you, your home, your family and your planet.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Nah, Legion is pretty straight forward, they just want to destroy you, your home, your family and your planet.
    Well, the Legion is pretty vast, but that's probably the thing they have in common, yeah

  5. #145
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think they only have limited control over when they go, so they can't just cheat by checking the situation and then choosing the best time. They have to take what they get.
    Er, and how is "what they get" determined?

    If they attack us NOW, and later decide to attack us "back then", what then?
    Bronze Dragonflight brigade attacks?

    Plus, if the BL can only be "invited" to Azeroth, then they would be invited in a chronological order.
    Does that mean the Legion was invited to Draenor after we went there?
    If that's the case, it would make more sense.
    Why did you create a new thread? Use the search function and post in existing threads!
    Why did you necro a thread?

  6. #146
    The only reason WoD is an alt timeline is because Garrosh went back and caused events to change. Until then, it was the same timeline but the change caused a branch so now there are two. So, the question is whether Gul'Dan was in contact with the new timeline Legion when he disappeared or ours, or maybe both, or if the Legion comes from an uncorrupted (how's that for irony) dimension's timeline. Really, there's a lot of possibilities and any explanation offered will never be entirely sufficient after Garrosh's meddling.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldin View Post
    The only reason WoD is an alt timeline is because Garrosh went back and caused events to change. Until then, it was the same timeline but the change caused a branch so now there are two. So, the question is whether Gul'Dan was in contact with the new timeline Legion when he disappeared or ours, or maybe both, or if the Legion comes from an uncorrupted (how's that for irony) dimension's timeline. Really, there's a lot of possibilities and any explanation offered will never be entirely sufficient after Garrosh's meddling.
    A little correction - it wasn't the same, even before Garrosh arrived. There were already few differences (i.e: Garrosh not being born there) by then.

    (Also, it was an alternate universe. I'd like to separate alternate universe, alternate timeways and alternate timelines since they *might* not share the exact same meaning in WoW)
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  8. #148
    I don't think so, it was the same timeline but farther back in the past.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldin View Post
    I don't think so, it was the same timeline but farther back in the past.
    No, we know which year Garrosh & Kairoz arrived in AU Draenor. There were a number of differences even before Garrosh arrived, such as:
    - Garrosh was never born in AU Draenor.
    - Rulkan was alive.
    - Gul'dan was never a shaman apprentice to Ner'zhul. He started out as warlock (see his Harbringers short).
    - Different appearances (i.e: Durotan's & Ogrimm's eye color).
    etc.

    Some of those (i.e: Garrosh never being born, or Durotan's eye color) wouldn't be changed if it was just the same timeline, but further back in the past. Don Adams (Blizzard developer) also acknowledged that on Twitter ("Correct, this is one of a few exceptions where differences were not caused by Garrosh's interference.") and ("We consider the timelines to be mostly the same with a few notable differences.")
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  10. #150
    Well, if that's the case then the alt-universe has a splintered timeline unless it was always the case that what happened was going to happen. I see no reason Garrosh couldn't go back to a time before he was born, but the eyecolor and Gul'Dan's shamanism are good points.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Okay, this wiki explains it kinda...

    Kairoz revealed that he had brought Garrosh to a timeway similar to the past of their own, but "not a perfect mirror image." In order to blend in, he transformed himself into an orc. Believing that Azeroth isn't strong enough to take on the Burning Legion alone,[3] he explained that his plan was for Garrosh to help him gather the orcs into a new Horde and bring it to Azeroth to fight against the Legion. However, Kairoz was not satisfied with just one Horde free of demonic taint: he wanted to cultivate an infinite number of Hordes drawn from all the timeways. His fatal error came when he turned his back on Garrosh, who immediately stabbed Kairoz to death with the shard of the Vision of Time.

  11. #151
    Bloodsail Admiral Snorkles's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that the one singular Legion can access all realities and at any point in time, however they need to actually know the place and time they want to go to. They can't just pick a time/location at random and see if there's anything there they can corrupt, they aren't omnipotent.

  12. #152
    So, if there is 1 Legion is there 1 Mannoroth?

    If yes, then from his perspective did he get "killed" on MU by Grom Hellscream, then a little later go back to try to corrupt AU Hellscream, where he got an axe in the skull, then later get killed by the player hero?

    If we go to another timeline "in the past" like Garrosh did, will Mannoroth exist or not?

  13. #153
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    So this is my personal theory/hypothesis on how the reality structures of the Warcraft universe work in terms of the multiverse and the divergent or alternate realities we've encountered.

    Take, for instance, the alternate Draenor we're shown in WoD as the example of choice. Alternate universes essentially don't exist as concrete phenomena, they're instead fuzzy or ephemeral dimensions that don't effect or truly exist in a rational manner (like a dream, or a reverie of some kind). It requires the active participation of a greater force from the primary universe, the one we as players inhabit, to bring an alternate reality into focus and make it *real* even in the short-term. In the case of AU Draenor this was done by Kairozdormu in his role as a Bronze Dragon, using his remaining abilities to influence Time alongside the power of the Epoch Stones found on the Timeless Isle; devices whose powers are still only dimly understood. Kairozdormu used these to create the Vision of Time, an artifact that essentially allowed him to "solidify" then travel to the alternate reality of his choice - the one he felt would serve best to achieve his goals (whatever they truly might've been).

    Every possible eventuality, every alternative choice that could've been made to shape the nature of a world, exists in a quasi-real state in the multiverse. But the only reality that truly matters, and the reality that serves as the point of origin for all these echo-realities, is the one that we inhabit: the primary reality. The Twisting Nether only truly exists as part of our reality, and the alternate realities that are somehow solidified or made *real* don't have their own copy but instead get grafted on to the transcendent Nether (in Draenor's case its umbilical is the re-routed Dark Portal, in my theory at least). The Legion was only able to invade AU Draenor and recruit AU Gul'dan because the alternative reality had been made real by Kairoz's shenanigans - but they couldn't jump into just any reality without stabilizing it first (something likely only Sargeras or his lieutenants could do, and a process that may require more energy or power than they're willing to spend).

    But in the end it doesn't matter overly, because the Legion's rampage through the primary reality is destroying these ephemeral alternative realities by destroying what creates them in the first place - sentience in our universe. If Sargeras succeeds and the universe is completely expunged then all of the alternative realities will also have been destroyed as well, and only a single dead universe will remain to be rebuilt (if that is even possible to do).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
    Er, and how is "what they get" determined?

    If they attack us NOW, and later decide to attack us "back then", what then?
    Bronze Dragonflight brigade attacks?
    In a meta sense, by what fits Blizzards needs. In-Universe, it could be as simple as there just being naturally occuring timeways they can use. If there's no path, you can't walk it.

    Plus, if the BL can only be "invited" to Azeroth, then they would be invited in a chronological order.
    Does that mean the Legion was invited to Draenor after we went there?
    While Draenor seems to be "after" the third war for both us and the Legion forces we meet there, that doesn't mean we have the same chronological order. Keep in mind that Alleria has spend a millenium fighting them in what wasn't even a century on Azeroth.

    It just happens that the order matches up in this specific case. I.e. for both forces the third war happens before Draenor. Quite possible the Legion has done centuries of other stuff in between, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by the View Post
    So, if there is 1 Legion is there 1 Mannoroth?

    If yes, then from his perspective did he get "killed" on MU by Grom Hellscream, then a little later go back to try to corrupt AU Hellscream, where he got an axe in the skull, then later get killed by the player hero?

    If we go to another timeline "in the past" like Garrosh did, will Mannoroth exist or not?
    Mannoroth wasn't permanently killed, so he can just come back. That doesn't mean he would or would not show up in a different timeline. That mostly depends on whether he has reason to go there.

    This is also completely independent of whether there's only one Mannoroth or several. But there's only one Mannoroth that is leader of the Pit Lords of the Legion. The others would simply have different positions.(So there'd be leader Mannoroth, squad commander Mannoroth, private Mannoroth, accountant Mannoroth etc.)

    You're now imagining Mannoroth with wide brimmed glasses and a suit.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Granted they took a bronze with them, but mostly for navigation, since the bronze can't time travel. In summary, you are wrong.
    So you are basically saying Nozdormu nor one of his future selves can't travel through time.

  16. #156
    Injecting time travel and parallel universes into this already fucked up setting turned it into a big, steamy pile of shit.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    So you are basically saying Nozdormu nor one of his future selves can't travel through time.
    Aspects weren't exactly normal Dragons.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Aspects weren't exactly normal Dragons.
    That is true. However, it doesn't matter. Even not counting Nozdormu, the Bronze Dragonflight can still travel through time. Haven't we seen plenty of evidences?
    - The Infinite Dragonflight, which is the Bronze Dragonflight in the future, can travel back in time just fine. We have plenty of examples in CoT.
    - Similarly, also in CoT, back in TBC when Nozdormu was still away, the Custodian of Time tell us that the Keepers of Time could do normal maintenance of time, and they dispatched some members back in the past to various trouble spots in the timeways (i.e: Hillsbrad / Black Morass)
    - In "Charge of the Aspects", Nozdormu dispatched 12 dragons back in the past, tasked them with investigating the timeways
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge of the Aspects
    "How can that be?" Nozdormu growled in frustration. "Twelve I dispatched into the past. Twelve!"
    He had tasked his agents with investigating the unsettling condition of the timeways, but now he couldn't shake the feeling that he had merely consigned them to their deaths. Upon returning to the present, the dragons were supposed to have met the Timeless One atop Hyjal precisely at midday
    <...>
    "When he first returned from the timeways," Tick continued hesitantly, "he recounted what he saw. No matter where he and the others attempted to journey in history, they always emerged at the same point in the future... the Hour of Twilight."
    - And more recently, even AFTER Deathwing's death and the loss of Aspects' power, they can still travel through time - just lost their perfect knowledge of the past and future - as said by Chromie in "War Crimes"
    Quote Originally Posted by War Crimes
    "We once knew the timeways inside and out", she began. "We could see the past and the future with perfect clarity. Our flight's charge, from the moment Nozdormu became our Aspect, was to protect the sanctity of the timeline. And we were given vast power to do this. Now... things aren't quite so clear. We can still travel the timeways, but we don't have that perfect knowledge anymore. That's why we've enlisted mortals to help us keep the timeline safe.
    So all in all, I'm not sure how @purebalance get the idea that the Bronze Dragonflight can't time travel (or even just can't time travel anymore). Managarde could have been wrong with "The only way they could pull time travelling off would be to corrupt members of the bronze dragonflight", but the bronze could, and can travel through time just fine.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2016-08-26 at 10:40 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
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  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans D Luniz's Avatar
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    maybe they are like the testicle guys from Rick and Morty
    https://youtu.be/9i3tfS1lJys?t=11m17s
    or that guy from MIB3

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    That is true. However, it doesn't matter. Even not counting Nozdormu, the Bronze Dragonflight can still travel through time. Haven't we seen plenty of evidences?
    - The Infinite Dragonflight, which is the Bronze Dragonflight in the future, can travel back in time just fine. We have plenty of examples in CoT.
    - Similarly, also in CoT, back in TBC when Nozdormu was still away, the Custodian of Time tell us that the Keepers of Time could do normal maintenance of time, and they dispatched some members back in the past to various trouble spots in the timeways (i.e: Hillsbrad / Black Morass)
    - In "Charge of the Aspects", Nozdormu dispatched 12 dragons back in the past, tasked them with investigating the timeways


    - And more recently, even AFTER Deathwing's death and the loss of Aspects' power, they can still travel through time - just lost their perfect knowledge of the past and future - as said by Chromie in "War Crimes"


    So all in all, I'm not sure how @purebalance get the idea that the Bronze Dragonflight can't time travel (or even just can't time travel anymore). Managarde could have been wrong with "The only way they could pull time travelling off would be to corrupt members of the bronze dragonflight", but the bronze could, and can travel through time just fine.
    While they CAN time travel and CAN'T navigate properly, my point still stands that the legion can time travel. Garrosh and Wrathion could have stolen the Vision of Time and used it.

    Furthermore the fact is even more shown that those other than the bronze can time travel since Garrosh/Grommash opened the red dark portal which was a time/reality portal.

    Also, the bronze cannot "travel through time just fine" as the npc on TI tells you it's extremely difficult after Cata.

    Nice strawman though, got me to waste a few lines on it.

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