Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

The relic sim would be wrong regardless of the changes you made, because you'll obviously want Windrunner's Guidance.

I have been wrong, more than once, I am not denying that.

If I haven't had a chance to do an AoE sim on the relics, it's simply because I've been running sims constantly, there are many simulations and intuitions to try out, and it's a constant game of catch up with Simcraft changes. If WG ends up being best overall, it will be pretty obvious in sims when I get back to them. Part of the problem of being first to present things is that it can be wrong for a time, and you have to keep iterating.

As I said in that chat, I have plans to rerun these sims with changes and I specifically said "please take these sims with a grain of salt". Sims take time, and I have a full time job in a major research lab that I have to work at too. I'll get back to these, and if you are right, it will certainly bear out in sims. And since I'll provide the source, others will be able to definitively see that you are right on this topic.

Anyway, I have no problems with being banned from Discord. It stopped some pleasant conversations I was having with others, but I can continue those elsewhere at AMR discord, these forums, or somewhere else. Since you and I both consider that discord site yours, it's probably better off with you being able to hang out there with people that you trust and appreciate. Cheers! No worries!

P.S. One of the reasons I post Simcraft source is so that others can rerun sims that I have neglected for a time and feel free to share the new results in this thread. Another reason I post source is so people can learn how to run their own sims. I'm just a guy running simulations and sharing results. ANYONE can do this.

[Azortharion]

Giving people the ability to run the sims for themselves isn't worth a lot since most people don't know how to interpret on simcraft results or use them for much, that's why almost no one has produced anything meaningful that way. Something like "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.".

I only moderate the Hunter Discord, it isn't mine anymore.

[eathdemon]

isnt the the issue with sims is that there arent pure singfle target or mostly aoe fights anymore. most fights are a hybrid of the 2. they have both single target phases and aoe phases, so you tend to need talent set up that works in both cases.

[Azortharion]

Mhm. That's why you need game knowledge to interpret on sims and understand their weaknesses. There is almost no sim where you can take the numbers it shows at face value.

[eathdemon]

since you disagree with him on a number of sims, which golden trait do you think peoplre should go for first, or are you with him in thinking bullseye?

[Azortharion]

If you read the FAQ thread on the Hunter Discord, my opinion on artifact progression is very obvious.

[Effinhunter]

Sims can be both. You can use raid events to approximate boss encounters (though this gets really difficult, because you really need to create custom APLs to deal with holding CDs and such, and it's a lot of work for little real gain). You can simply do breakdowns of the AoE sections of fights (again, preferably with custom APLs that have the appropriate CDs available at the start of the AoE section). You can look at both single target and certain types of AoE sims for good information and infer what they mean. But yes, you have to have intuition and you have to correlate what you should be learning from them. It's not supposed to be a "this is the final form of all knowledge." Ideally, we present multiple viewpoints of a class and configurations of that class in specs, and we talk about what is really possible. What I've been trying to focus on is information about where we are going to be at the 20-26 trait range we'll have when Heroic and then Mythic Raids open up, because I'm just as interested as others in where we're going to be.

And there are always single target fights. Emerald Nightmare has them.

[Azortharion]

I'm not gonna reiterate the points I made on this exact same topic 1-2 years ago at length. Sims are useless without someone to tell you what they mean, and you better hope that whoever tells you what the sims mean knows their stuff, else you are going to be misinformed, and misinformation spreads quickly.

[Deleted]

...and I thought we are playing a game...

[Azortharion]

You're right, it's just a game, listen to whoever makes you feel fuzzy inside.

[vavlqlw]

If you read the FAQ thread on the Hunter Discord, my opinion on artifact progression is very obvious.

Shouldn't the FAQ in the "official" Hunter Discord be objective, and not based on your opinion? It's actually laughable that your FAQ is based on opinion and not data.

Don't pretend to serve all hunters, and then oppress information that doesn't serve your ends. Effinhunter presents his data, you should present yours. Everything beyond that should be up for discussion. You don't own hunters, stop presenting your opinions as fact.

[Azortharion]

Shouldn't the FAQ in the "official" Hunter Discord be objective, and not based on your opinion? It's actually laughable that your FAQ is based on opinion and not data.

Don't pretend to serve all hunters, and then oppress information that doesn't serve your ends. Effinhunter presents his data, you should present yours. Everything beyond that should be up for discussion. You don't own hunters, stop presenting your opinions as fact.

I oppress misinformation (usually badly interpreted sims). The FAQ isn't based on opinion, except for the spec choice which is a consensus and not my personal opinion. If you think you can SimCraft your way to a spec choice I don't know what to tell you.

Effinhunter presents faulty data. That is worse than not presenting any data at all, because it misleads. For fear of making the same mistake as him, I keep my cards close until the stuff that is in the FAQ now makes it to the guide in the coming days. Rather have people not know, than have people think they know when in reality they are just misinformed.

How would information "serve my ends" anyway? Your post is total nonsense. I only gain from giving people the right information, no incentive for me to give them the wrong stuff. This expansion has blown SimCraft well out of proportion. The SimCraft modules are pretty weak and every sim, no matter how simple, has a catch to it that people won't know unless they are told. To show a bunch of sims right now is doing everyone a disservice because people are simple when it comes to reading sims. You don't wanna show people anything that you aren't 100% sure about (as far as you can possibly be aware). And sure, you'll get flak from some random idiots on MMO-Champion for not showing your "data" at every corner like Effin, but I'll take having to defend myself every day over everyone being misinformed going into Legion and making the wrong choices.

[Effinhunter]

Well, what's really confusing about this is that both of us are essentially agreeing on the same end points. MM seems like the preferred raiding spec. Everything I have simmed is pointing to that. I have not deviated on that at all. We apparently have some differences on relics? And we've both agreed that ilvl trumps everything on relics so there isn't much point in arguing about it, right? But apparently, it's enough to ban people for posting the only sim they were aware of (in response to a question about relics, to which you weren't responding), and saying "this is what I found the last time I ran the sims, but I need to rerun them with the current APL and latest simcraft. Take it with a grain of salt. I'll also be running another sim with only stuff that will be available to us in Emerald Nighmare."

Anyone who can process all this without just saying "Well, Azor hates Effin" apparently knows something that I don't.

Anyway, running more sims. They're not going to be very interesting to Azor so hopefully he finds someone else to play with in Discord or something.

[Azortharion]

Your methodology and theorycrafting philosophy is on another planet to me. That's what I disagree with. The basis for everything you do is wrong, if you ask me. Two completely different approaches that sometimes, but not always, ends up with the same result. It's wrong because it's not as educational as it could be, and on the way to achieving some kind of educational value, you misinform people left and right because people are stupid and interpret the sims the wrong way, and so do you. It doesn't matter if I like or dislike you personally. I am sure no one gives a damn, but as always you'll try to play the bigger man to gain some favour or sympathy, when fact is you've accused me of deliberately misinforming people for my own benefit and shit like that.

[Effinhunter]

I'm just not a petty person. I'm sharing the same kind of theorycrafting information I've been sharing since Vanilla, though way more of it simply because our tools have gotten so much better and it's way easier to disseminate ideas and data. You just seem to have a hyperinflated sense of your worth to the hunter community, and you want the rest of us to think that we can't survive without you.

The truth is that if you or I disappeared, the hunter community would move on as always, just as strong, and just as competent at preparing for the next raid.

[Smog]

You just seem to have a hyperinflated sense of your worth to the hunter community, and you want the rest of us to think that we can't survive without you.

I don't think he's ever claimed that.

The truth is that if you or I disappeared, the hunter community would move on as always, just as strong, and just as competent at preparing for the next raid.

Maybe, but to claim that each class's community doesn't have important members who provide extremely valuable information, and that said community wouldn't be damaged by their departure, is just plainly wrong. Just as Warriors would be set back by Archi or Sarri's sudden disappearance, the Hunter community would be by Azor's.

That said, I think this is all getting blown way out of proportion. Azor is right when he basically asserts people are too stupid to be able to correctly utilize and interpret sims, but I don't agree that it makes you incredibly damaging to the community. I mean, Azor says shit that people misinterpret due to their own stupidity all the time, but that doesn't make what he says worthless. However, the problem with sims is that they're OMG NUMBERS which means people will interpret them as gospel.

I think you should probably both just drop it. If you have a problem with getting banned from the Discord, take it to PM where you can both discuss it civilly and without trying to project an image or protect your egos in the public eye.

[Azortharion]

EDIT: Nevermind, have the last word.

[Effinhunter]

I have no problem with getting banned from the Discord. I've been trying to explain that.

And I don't think you quite understand the effect that people like Kennyloggins or others have had behind the scenes with Azor. Without Kenny, we'd be set back a lot. Without Azor? No. Not at all. I guess you don't remember when Azortharion deleted his guide during this past expansion, and everyone laughed it off because he was just being unreasonable. That was not too long ago, and we did just fine.

And if you saw the PMs Azor has sent me, you'd understand that discussing something with him civilly is not possible. This is something very personal to him. He does not like competition.

[Azortharion]

Shadow is me. (right-click and open in new tab)



- - - Updated - - -

[Worpig]

You two going to kiss already? Should be teaching that sims are to be taken with a grain of salt and that both of you present useful info that should be used collectively than one of you exclusively