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  1. #81
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Well if the other one you so highly praised (Genn) spoke up about what really happened at the Broken Shore - what he SAW when he was flying away on the Gunship - then perhaps Jaina would have reacted differently. He didn't, because of his dislike of Sylvanas. Thus Jaina is being even bitchier than she was before. How did that work out for the Alliance?
    He saw the Horde withdrawing at a crucial moment without a word and then Wrynn dying. He got on the gunship only after the Legion made it to the ledge from which Sylvanas was providing cover before, and then had a fel reaver holding thd gunship, so he didn't get a chance to see what happened to the Horde previously. What was it that he was supposed to see after the fel reaver let go? Keep in mind that Wrynn is down in half a minute, tops, and by the time Gul'dan kills Wrynn, per Horde cinematic, the Horde forces are far off. At tve very best, he could give the Horde a benefit of a doubt, but cobsidering that Sylvanas is the one who invaded his country and killed his son trying to kill him last time they saw each other, is he exactly expected to think the Horde and Sylvanas especially would do no wrong? What exactly was he supposed to tell Jaina that would dissuade her from reaching the conclusion that the Horde backstabbed them, AGAIN? Especially when the Horde made zero effort to communicate what happened, despite that is EXACTLY what allies in war are supposed to do?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    You're a bit jaded in how things went. She wasn't 'talked out of it' - she nearly killed Thrall, and would have if Kalecgos didn't show up. She stopped because Kalecgos compared her to Arthas, with what she was doing. So no, she wasn't talked out of it.
    He told her that if she did it, she'd be no different than Garrosh, if memory serves me. One way or another, talking led to her abandoning trying to do to Horde what they did to her, which I would call talking out.
    Why jaded, by the way?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Youn View Post
    There are no good guys in World of Warcraft:
    And you, my friend, win.

    Just as it is in real life, there are no clear cut bad guys.

    The 'bad guys' are always the 'other' people.

  3. #83
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    mods please close this thread.
    we really, and i mean REALLY, dont need ANOTHER "sylvanas is da worst person on the planet!" thread.

    we have so god damn many already.
    Last edited by Raetary; 2016-08-24 at 02:48 PM.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    He told her that if she did it, she'd be no different than Garrosh, if memory serves me. One way or another, talking led to her abandoning trying to do to Horde what they did to her, which I would call talking out.
    Your memory is not serving you.
    When Jaina said she did what she knew to be right, Kalec bluntly reminded her that Arthas had believed the same thing when he carried out the culling of Stratholme and pleaded with her not to stoop to the same level, saying that even Arthas had not reacted with such hatred.
    She, effectively, backed out because she didn't want to be badly compared to him, and for people's opinion of her to be even worse than it already was. That's what is called egomaniacal.

    eta: Since I forgot the Genn part; they saw the massive amount of Legion forces on the ridge that forced the Horde to back out of the fight. Before he even got on the gunship. Do you just forget things when it suits you?
    Last edited by Ryzeth; 2016-08-24 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #85
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    I don't see how she killing Genn's Son is bad thing for the her. They were at war and at war shits happen. There were two options there though, Genn's Son or Genn itself, wich I truly wish it had happened now, seeing as Genn has become a shithead and blaming Horde for their losses at the Broken Shore. I know Horde tried to help Alliance, but we're not their babysitters and while Horde tried to Alliance I didn't see a single Alliance person helping Horde in that scenario. Not a single one. Sylvannas did what she had to, that's all. There's no good or bad in the battlefield.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nheela View Post
    The bias for Sylvanas is so strong it's ridiculous.

    She's evil. She's consistently been evil ever since Arthas made her what she is.

    In Gilneas she killed Genn's son just to spite the worgen, she outright lied to the horde emissary, she disobeyed the orders of Garrosh, her Warchief, and bombed Gilneas with the Plague.

    Yet Genn and Jaina get the most crap. They are right though and justified in their actions. The alliance is screwed either way. What good will it be if we defeat the Legion only to go under yet again, just this time it will be to a dark lady instead of a dark lord.

    She's hot though, I guess that excuses all her actions.
    Imean, as a Horde player (And an orc one specificly) I agree Sylvannas Is an evil... ehem, to quote Garrosh In Silverpine "Bii**h*, yet the crap Genn give the Horde Isn't justified, Jaina as well. Jaina's character has been run to the ground, from peace loving to "Amg you bombed my base, my hair's mostly white now, you all die" just... blank as hell. And she contradicts what she did In Hyjal, she held off the Demons long as she could and then retreated, the Horde held off the Demons long as THEY could in Broken Shore, and had to retreat most of their people were wounded, If they didn't run they'd all die - that Is fact, not a bias.

    And Genn, while understandable he lost his whole kingdom, his Son to Sylvannas - that's justified, but to blindly think "Oh they ran cause they wanted to betray us on purpose" Is a stupid idea from Alliance-bias players. If that's indeed his character to just constantly assume things without thinking, then he shouldn't even be a bloody king.

    I'm just saying... also something something unban us, Blizz. You're being stupid by banning Innocents - my traditional subpost about Blizzard unfairness done, thank you.
    Permabanned on WoW since April 14th 2015, main acc I had since vanilla gone and trashed for no good reason, 6+ years later still banned with more appeals resulting in my BATTLENET games being suspended for a month eachtime I try making TICKETS because I'm asking for help with the perma ban. Blizzard has stopped caring for their first veteran players and would rather we leave, considering the Lawsuit, can you afford to keep peps banned even for so long under questionable circumstances?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    He saw the Horde withdrawing at a crucial moment without a word and then Wrynn dying. He got on the gunship only after the Legion made it to the ledge from which Sylvanas was providing cover before, and then had a fel reaver holding thd gunship, so he didn't get a chance to see what happened to the Horde previously. What was it that he was supposed to see after the fel reaver let go? Keep in mind that Wrynn is down in half a minute, tops, and by the time Gul'dan kills Wrynn, per Horde cinematic, the Horde forces are far off. At tve very best, he could give the Horde a benefit of a doubt, but cobsidering that Sylvanas is the one who invaded his country and killed his son trying to kill him last time they saw each other, is he exactly expected to think the Horde and Sylvanas especially would do no wrong? What exactly was he supposed to tell Jaina that would dissuade her from reaching the conclusion that the Horde backstabbed them, AGAIN? Especially when the Horde made zero effort to communicate what happened, despite that is EXACTLY what allies in war are supposed to do?
    Hornblow was as much a call for the alliance as it was for the horde. The moment the Alliance heard and the horde turned it's quite simply put "USE YOUR BRAIN TIME!" and realise that the Horde needed this win just as much as you do. That if they are retreating then either they done something completely stupid as in side with the legion. Which in turn can be ruled out because the legion are smashing horde areas as much as alliance. Or because something up there has totally gone Fucked up beyond anything and it was their only choice.

    If you want to tell Jaina to dissuade her is a simply line of questioning. Which is. "Why logically would the Horde, who need the burning legion destroyed as much as we do, who also know they can't win alone would throw away their chance for survival?"

  8. #88
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Your memory is not serving you.
    "Is this what your legacy is to be, Jaina Proudmoore? To be another Garrosh, another Arthas?"
    Guess we were both right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Your She, effectively, backed out because she didn't want to be badly compared to him, and for people's opinion of her to be even worse than it already was. That's what is called egomaniacal.
    What I quoted, continues:
    Jaina's legs buckled and she dropped to the sand, still keeping her hand on the Focusing Iris. Her mind was reeling, thick with fog and anguish.
    Arthas---
    I can't watch you do this.
    She had said that to him, after begging him to change his mind. Had ridden off with Uther, weeping at what Arthas had become. Slowly, as if her head weighed a thousand pounds, she turned to look ät her hand on the Focusing Iris. So simple a thing, to have so much power and to have caused so much pain. She thought of its energy being used to animate a five-headed monstrosity, Chromatus. To funnel all arcane energy to the Nexus. To fuel a mana bomb that incinerated innocent young girls.
    To wipe out Orgrimmar---
    She thought of Arthas mocking Antonidas before Archimonde destroyed Dalaran. And the face of her old mentor, crafted of purple smoke: "This is not for idle hands, nor prying eyes. Information must not be lost. But it must not be used unwisely. Stay your hand, friend, or proceed --- if you know the way."
    She had wanted justification so badly that she had seen his appearance as an invitation --- even though she had been forced to break the magical seal. But it hadn't been.
    Proceed---if you know the way.
    But she hadn't known the way. She had been lost, blundering blindly. If anything, his brief appearance had been a warning, not a nod of approval. In her heart, Jaina knew what Antonidas's reaction would be to what she waas about to do. And the knowing was like a knife.

    After that, she uses the iris to help the Alliance navy fighting the krakens Garrosh's forces have summoned.
    Now, that looks more to me like Kalecgos talked her into a case of reflection. Are only egomaniacs capable of that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    eta: Since I forgot the Genn part; they saw the massive amount of Legion forces on the ridge that forced the Horde to back out of the fight. Before he even got on the gunship. Do you just forget things when it suits you?
    He saw a force comparable to what the Alliance was fighting, do check the Alliance video, in case you haven't. In case you want to mention that the Alliance had no infernals apparently present, I would like to point out the presence of Gul'dan, kinda noninsignificant person. After that, he was busy organising the withdrawal, and then by, you know, the thirty stories of fel reaver holding the gunship. I guess he should've been watching what is going on in the place that the Horde vacated, though. "I know we are being attacked by a giant case of HOLY SHIT!, but I need to know what exactly the Horde was facing!" Am I doing it right?
    Besides, from where he was when the Horde signalised retreat, he couldn't see what was going on; the Horde should've conveyd that information, at least AFTER the fight. When a deviation from a planned combat action is performed, the one responsible for it needs to inform their allies, something I kinda didn't find out happening yet - and I was looking, because if anything, that is a VERY stupid case of writing on Blizzard's part. They shoehorned the Horde into part of "meh, fuck our allies!". Such behavior doesn't get a war leader points, that gets them quite a swift case of defeat, something that someone supposedly as experiences as Sylvanas should know VERY well.
    Or do we ignore that, now that we are accusing one another of ignoring things that don't suit them?

  9. #89
    Legendary! Pony Soldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nheela View Post
    The bias for Sylvanas is so strong it's ridiculous.

    She's evil. She's consistently been evil ever since Arthas made her what she is.

    In Gilneas she killed Genn's son just to spite the worgen, she outright lied to the horde emissary, she disobeyed the orders of Garrosh, her Warchief, and bombed Gilneas with the Plague.

    Yet Genn and Jaina get the most crap. They are right though and justified in their actions. The alliance is screwed either way. What good will it be if we defeat the Legion only to go under yet again, just this time it will be to a dark lady instead of a dark lord.

    She's hot though, I guess that excuses all her actions.
    They get the most crap because they are acting like emotional teenagers putting their personal problems in front of actual real serious problems like hmm...the end of the world? They are wrong and their actions are not justified because again they're putting their own personal problems in front of the real problem at hand which is the Legion. They want to sacrifice lives by attacking the Horde because "she killed my son!" and "they bombed my town!". They are acting selfish right now and it's not what Anduin or any of the Alliance needs right now. The Alliance as well as the Horde ironically need each other if they are going to beat the Legion. If they are going to be bickering amongst one another they might as well kiss all their sorry asses goodbye.

    I won't disagree with Sylvanas being evil, I suspect there's some kind of sinister plan going on in her mind now that she's Warchief. Then again maybe she's genuinely for the Horde now that Garrosh is dealt with. She respected Thrall but not Garrosh for obvious reasons. That's why she disobeyed orders (I would think). What person would want to obey orders from a guy who wants to kill your own fellow Horde members (Vol'jin)? Also, because of Garrosh, Cairne is dead. I know it was by poison and Garrosh wasn't at the fault of that but if he wasn't so hot headed Cairne probably would've still been alive or at least killed on the battlefield fighting demons not his fellow Horde mates. So it's no wonder why Sylvanas disobeyed orders from him. Hell, in the end we all disobeyed his orders.
    Last edited by Pony Soldier; 2016-08-24 at 07:55 PM.
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  10. #90
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    How convenient that mouthbreathing 12 years old Horde fanboys forget about the genocide she was waging in Gilneas. Like enslaving civillians and conducting experiments on those who couldn't work. Or her little laboratory in Lich King novel. Raising dead people against their will.

  11. #91
    Pit Lord Omians's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    She's not "just" evil. She's not a black and white character. She's pragmatic to boot and cares very little about others than her self and her people, which is now the entire Horde, which could be interesting. She did not just kill Genn's son out of spite; they were at war not to mention that he takes the arrow instead of his father. Yes, she did disobey Garrosh, but only partly, since she was told to conquer Gilneas no matter what. In Legion, Genn is the one who instigates war with the Horde in Stormheim, not Sylvanas. No one from the Alliance even attempts to ask the Horde, why they ran away from the Broken Shore, they simply just assumed that they'd been betrayed and went apeshit instead of sending a single ambassador or diplomat or even envoy.

    Sylvanas isn't kind, or good, obviously. But she isn't not just evil, if she was she wouldn't have saved the Horde at the Broken Shore, nor would she have helped Varian or anyone else during that battle. It's not black and white.... NEXT!
    probably the reason shes featured in this month's loot crate of "anti Hero"
    Omians- 70 Troll Enhancement shaman, Emerald Dream

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Emeraldon View Post
    IN MY EYES THE JEDI ALLIANCE ARE EVIL!

    No
    Well the Sith actually were evil though. You know the whole opression and murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  13. #93
    Stood in the Fire Shizari's Avatar
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    Also outing myself as an Alliance fanboy here, but I have knowledge of the lore to back me up. Not perfect memory, mind, but still.

    Sylvanas in the past was twisted by Arthas and the scourge, becoming a creature of vengeance and hatred that only cared for her own survival above even her own "people". Her original goals mostly revolved around securing a foothold for the Forsaken, in order to build them into a weapon against Arthas. For the most part, she succeeded.

    And then the Wrathgate happened. Most of the Alliance and Horde knew there some crazy stuff going on beneath Lordaeron's former capital, but they were given a first hand lesson in just how far she went. Although it was traitors working with the Burning Legion (who Varimathras revealed to never actually stop being a part of), everyone knew that it was still Sylvanas-sanctioned experiments that lead to it.

    Come Cataclysm and the final defeat of Arthas, Sylvanas wanted to strengthen her hold on Forsaken land, no longer seeing them as just tools, but rather people she's saving from the same hell she saw after throwing herself off the Frozen Throne. Unfortunately, this new mentality, and the reveal that she had those weapons, changed her. She believed that all of Lordaeron the continent should be hers. And so she set out. She was probably always planning an invasion on Gilneas, but the orders from Warchief Inconsistent provided a nice cover. But even then, she denied orders to use a weaker strain of Plague, and used the full on Wrathgate brew. This turned Gilneas into, as one poster here described "a Fallout 4 wasteland". She set her sights on Ararhi, expanded into the Hinterlands, and completely took over Hillsbrad by Plague-nuking Southshore and turning Hillsbrad Fields into a science lab. Not even neutral factions are safe, if her ruthless expansion into the Plaguelands and her capturing of an Ebon Blade member are any indication.

    In nearly every military campaign Sylvanas launches, her plague comes with her. There's always plague carriers, even now in Legion's Dalaran (which, btw, made me burst out laughing when I saw). Maybe having no to lead the Horde against the Legion will change her for the better, but the fact of the matter is the Horde is still being lead by someone who has no issues with collateral damage in her campaigns and is probably one setback away from going completely Lich King 2.0 on the world.

    I'm excited to see the new faction war between Zombies and Werewolves!

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shizari View Post
    Also outing myself as an Alliance fanboy here, but I have knowledge of the lore to back me up. Not perfect memory, mind, but still.

    Sylvanas in the past was twisted by Arthas and the scourge, becoming a creature of vengeance and hatred that only cared for her own survival above even her own "people". Her original goals mostly revolved around securing a foothold for the Forsaken, in order to build them into a weapon against Arthas. For the most part, she succeeded.

    And then the Wrathgate happened. Most of the Alliance and Horde knew there some crazy stuff going on beneath Lordaeron's former capital, but they were given a first hand lesson in just how far she went. Although it was traitors working with the Burning Legion (who Varimathras revealed to never actually stop being a part of), everyone knew that it was still Sylvanas-sanctioned experiments that lead to it.

    Come Cataclysm and the final defeat of Arthas, Sylvanas wanted to strengthen her hold on Forsaken land, no longer seeing them as just tools, but rather people she's saving from the same hell she saw after throwing herself off the Frozen Throne. Unfortunately, this new mentality, and the reveal that she had those weapons, changed her. She believed that all of Lordaeron the continent should be hers. And so she set out. She was probably always planning an invasion on Gilneas, but the orders from Warchief Inconsistent provided a nice cover. But even then, she denied orders to use a weaker strain of Plague, and used the full on Wrathgate brew. This turned Gilneas into, as one poster here described "a Fallout 4 wasteland". She set her sights on Ararhi, expanded into the Hinterlands, and completely took over Hillsbrad by Plague-nuking Southshore and turning Hillsbrad Fields into a science lab. Not even neutral factions are safe, if her ruthless expansion into the Plaguelands and her capturing of an Ebon Blade member are any indication.

    In nearly every military campaign Sylvanas launches, her plague comes with her. There's always plague carriers, even now in Legion's Dalaran (which, btw, made me burst out laughing when I saw). Maybe having no to lead the Horde against the Legion will change her for the better, but the fact of the matter is the Horde is still being lead by someone who has no issues with collateral damage in her campaigns and is probably one setback away from going completely Lich King 2.0 on the world.

    I'm excited to see the new faction war between Zombies and Werewolves!

    In cataclysm she wanted to secure her borders, but she never wanted to attack gilneas, just make her borders secure. Garrosh already started the planning and he was using her troops as cannon fodder to weaken the forsaken. So claiming you have the knowledge of lore to back you up, you can't add things to it that are never said.

    She used the normal strain because it's war. The plague kills fast and efficient. Garrosh wanted her to use the weaker strain so that she would have more losses.

    Soutshore was an accident and the hillsbrad fields weren't sanctioned by her in any way. The scientist in charge was executed.

    The expansion into the plaguelands was a counter attack against the alliance for the control of andorhal, a very tactical location in the plaguelands, which the alliance also had no claims on.

    Koltira joined the horde in Wotlk, he was leading the battle of andorhal. He created a truce with the alliance commander because they were friends, without any authority. Because of koltira holding back, the forsaken lost many forces even though the battle could have ended long ago. That's plenty of reason for imprisonment.



    People need to understand that it's a war, and the plague is one of the best weapons that exists, there are no laws that forbid it on azeroth and it is faster and less painful than a mage burning people alive or a rogue's poison.

  15. #95
    Stood in the Fire Shizari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korthraxw View Post
    In cataclysm she wanted to secure her borders, but she never wanted to attack gilneas, just make her borders secure. Garrosh already started the planning and he was using her troops as cannon fodder to weaken the forsaken. So claiming you have the knowledge of lore to back you up, you can't add things to it that are never said.

    She used the normal strain because it's war. The plague kills fast and efficient. Garrosh wanted her to use the weaker strain so that she would have more losses.

    Soutshore was an accident and the hillsbrad fields weren't sanctioned by her in any way. The scientist in charge was executed.

    The expansion into the plaguelands was a counter attack against the alliance for the control of andorhal, a very tactical location in the plaguelands, which the alliance also had no claims on.

    Koltira joined the horde in Wotlk, he was leading the battle of andorhal. He created a truce with the alliance commander because they were friends, without any authority. Because of koltira holding back, the forsaken lost many forces even though the battle could have ended long ago. That's plenty of reason for imprisonment.



    People need to understand that it's a war, and the plague is one of the best weapons that exists, there are no laws that forbid it on azeroth and it is faster and less painful than a mage burning people alive or a rogue's poison.
    Like I said, my memory wasn't perfect. The fact still stands that the term "War crimes" exists for a reason. There have to be limits, and your trying to justify Sylvanas not having any. Southshore being an accident (which, now that I'm rereading shit, it was) is exactly why limits are necessary.

    Koltira might have joined the horde, fine, but she still kidnapped a general who didn't have any specific loyalty to her with the intent to brainwash him so that he would be completely loyal to her.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Shizari View Post
    Koltira might have joined the horde, fine, but she still kidnapped a general who didn't have any specific loyalty to her with the intent to brainwash him so that he would be completely loyal to her.
    Hahahaha! Seriously? Hey maybe Garrosh would have been nicer, you think? And incompetent undead elf fraternizing with the enemy? Maybe Garrosh would have understood?

    Ah, I get it you are butthurt about Gilneas, but come on... let's not pretend the Horde is some nice guy's club.

    Honestly I'm a DK player and I wish they would have killed that embarrassment to the Horde we call Koltira, another douche elf who talks big and does nothing. Maybe we would have gotten a more interesting follower as Horde in Legion.

  17. #97
    She killed Liam because he jumped in front of an arrow meant for Genn. It's not that I disagree that Sylvanas has few morals in regards to achieving what she desires, but at the very least you could get your facts straight.

    And if you're suggesting that the Alliance couldn't defeat the Forsaken, maybe they should toughen up a little?
    Last edited by StationaryHawk; 2016-08-24 at 10:38 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Nheela View Post
    The bias for Sylvanas is so strong it's ridiculous.

    She's evil. She's consistently been evil ever since Arthas made her what she is.

    In Gilneas she killed Genn's son just to spite the worgen, she outright lied to the horde emissary, she disobeyed the orders of Garrosh, her Warchief, and bombed Gilneas with the Plague.

    Yet Genn and Jaina get the most crap. They are right though and justified in their actions. The alliance is screwed either way. What good will it be if we defeat the Legion only to go under yet again, just this time it will be to a dark lady instead of a dark lord.

    She's hot though, I guess that excuses all her actions.
    yeah maybe cos the worgen invaded silverpine
    she disobeyed orders to protect her people since garrosh wanted them to get slaughtered in the siege

    jaina get's crap because she did a 180 in legion, she was starting to come to her senses and then she did another hissy fit for no reason

  19. #99
    Being evil is just one of the reasons she is so awesome.

    But yeah, let's pick another boring ass orc instead to lead the horde.

  20. #100
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    Glad she's evil. Hope she does all sorts of evil things to the alliance.
    Last edited by SL1200; 2016-08-24 at 11:11 PM.

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