Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Sprucelee]

Thing is, it only really provides a second mastery stack to reju (-> other spells lower the average possible quite a bit) and the tank, and for reju not even on full uptime. It's really not good enough unless you can have it consistently trigger and forego most other spells (or stack onto them easily), but then the result is obvious like on velhari.

Anyway, I don't quite get why you guys make anything like rocket science out of statweights. Outside of mastery stacking, there's not much complexity involved, and a quick glance and stat conversion should show you how stats are likely going to perform (+- Tranquility). As for mastery, you should know what kind of healing your tank needs and be able to decide thereof (if it's secondary healing requirement, or emergency -> crit/haste are better, otherwise mastery).

As for Crit/Haste, I guess that's more going to be about preference than anything.

Gemming is far more important in legion than it has ever been, and unless you plan on burning bloods and rare gems all time, I advise spending more time than "Uh, I like the color of crit gems better than haste" on your gearing. Generally we get far less choice in other slots, we take the best item regardless of secondaries.

The goal is to find what fits a much more dynamic range of roles/content (while also being fairly permanent in nature), not only healing across varying group sizes, but also maximizing DPS, which is critical in Mythic+.

At some point I would guess we can focus on mythic raids, unless you are pushing top Mythic+ content for fun, but that will take a bit.

[Tiberria]

Honestly, almost all Mythic raiders should just focus their gearing attention/gemming, etc on min maxing Mythic raiding. The Mythic + gearing rewards cap out at level 10, and that is a level that should be reasonably trivial to reach within a couple of weeks, especially given that Druids are pretty much the unquestionably "BiS" 5 man healer. As long as you can hit Mythic+ 10 with mythic raiding optimized gear, there's no reason to go for some weird "gearing compromise". Anything above Mythic+ 10 is just for bragging rights/cosmetic stuff.

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I'm super doubtful that Mastery is as good as Tiberia makes it out to be. I'm using the build he name "rejuv build" and RDSW addon was mining Mastery at below both Crit and Haste on majority of encounters, sometimes very close to Vers or even below it. The only fight Mastery was higher than other stats was on Tyrant when I used Cultivation, which is understandable and super cheesy.

I will personally follow the following priority: Crit>Haste>Mastery>Versatility. From the mining I did in full 3 weeks of 12 boss fights (excluded HFA) I got Int=SP=1, Crit=0,66, Haste(HPM)=0,61, Mastery=0,53, Vers=0,5.
From Council and Archi logs based on my own formulas and getting weights from there: Int=SP=1, Crit=0,65, Vers=0,63, Haste(HPM)=0,62, Haste(HPCT)=0,99. No mastery obviously, since I haven't figured out how to get it.

I think it's kind of common sense why mastery would be the top stat in a Cultivation build in a raid environment. I don't see what trying to use an addon that is built around 110 design, and doesn't factor in our HFC set bonuses, etc. is going to tell you of value if you use it on HFC fights. There are HFC fights other than P2 Tyrant that has the health pool levels needed to make Cultivation viable anyway, and if those damage patterns persist in Legion (seems unlikely), then yeah - Cultivation will be moth balled as a talent.

1. If you don't have targets to heal that are <60% HP almost all of the time, you're not going to be using Cultivation to begin with.
2. If you do have the <60% HP targets, and take the Cultivation build, it stands to reason that the bulk of your output is going to come from Rejuv spam, with WG usage de-empshasized (due to mana constraints, etc.)
3. In that situation, you can guarantee that all of your Rejuv healing will get at least 2.0 mastery stacks from Rejuv+Cultivation alone. You are already guaranteed that your LB/primary tank healing target gets at least 2.0 stacks (because you will be keeping Rejuv on him). At 2.0 stacks, Mastery is nearly 20% better than the other secondaries by default.

That means that you are getting a significantly higher gain from mastery on the most important part of your healing (i.e. the targets that you are focus healing) than you would from any other secondary. The downside would be your WG healing (but you aren't going to be casting WG anywhere near as often in a Cult/Rejuv build), your Efflo healing (probably mitigated somewhat by taking SB), and your Tranq healing. However, I don't think any of that is enough to offset a nearly 20% gain on the player target focused portion of your healing kit.

The real question with Cultivation will be - will we have people at low enough health for it to ever to be worth taking that build. While raid testing logs/numbers suggest it may well be the case, experience with how gear and player power scales when an expansion actually goes live and people actually have viable fight strats makes me skeptical.

[masterhorus8]

I have changed the stat values and I specifically mentioned what I used it on. If "Tyrant" and "HFA" didn't give you enough of a clue, I was talking about HFC.

I haven't said shit about dungeons. You have quoted my entire post, do you see any mention of a dungeon there?

Jesus christ dude, no need to be rude.

Sorry I didn't know that you edited the addon to do your own thing, if that was evident enough from me saying "last I checked, referring to the base version. But no fucking shit I knew you were talking about HFC, why do you think I said 100? What, did you think I was somehow saying going back into HFC while level 110?

As for the mastery comment for when Tiberria was saying it would be good, mythic + dungeons were being referred to the most and you then continue what's already been stated about mastery not being that impressive for raids due to hot distribution being thin. My entire point of mentioning dungeons was that you were missing the point of why it was brought up in the first place, otherwise you were agreeing with Tiberria instead of trying to refute it.

You're just a bundle of joy to be around. Have a good day.

[Sprucelee]

Honestly, almost all Mythic raiders should just focus their gearing attention/gemming, etc on min maxing Mythic raiding. The Mythic + gearing rewards cap out at level 10, and that is a level that should be reasonably trivial to reach within a couple of weeks, especially given that Druids are pretty much the unquestionably "BiS" 5 man healer. As long as you can hit Mythic+ 10 with mythic raiding optimized gear, there's no reason to go for some weird "gearing compromise". Anything above Mythic+ 10 is just for bragging rights/cosmetic stuff.

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I think it's kind of common sense why mastery would be the top stat in a Cultivation build in a raid environment. I don't see what trying to use an addon that is built around 110 design, and doesn't factor in our HFC set bonuses, etc. is going to tell you of value if you use it on HFC fights. There are HFC fights other than P2 Tyrant that has the health pool levels needed to make Cultivation viable anyway, and if those damage patterns persist in Legion (seems unlikely), then yeah - Cultivation will be moth balled as a talent.

1. If you don't have targets to heal that are <60% HP almost all of the time, you're not going to be using Cultivation to begin with.
2. If you do have the <60% HP targets, and take the Cultivation build, it stands to reason that the bulk of your output is going to come from Rejuv spam, with WG usage de-empshasized (due to mana constraints, etc.)
3. In that situation, you can guarantee that all of your Rejuv healing will get at least 2.0 mastery stacks from Rejuv+Cultivation alone. You are already guaranteed that your LB/primary tank healing target gets at least 2.0 stacks (because you will be keeping Rejuv on him). At 2.0 stacks, Mastery is nearly 20% better than the other secondaries by default.

That means that you are getting a significantly higher gain from mastery on the most important part of your healing (i.e. the targets that you are focus healing) than you would from any other secondary. The downside would be your WG healing (but you aren't going to be casting WG anywhere near as often in a Cult/Rejuv build), your Efflo healing (probably mitigated somewhat by taking SB), and your Tranq healing. However, I don't think any of that is enough to offset a nearly 20% gain on the player target focused portion of your healing kit.

The real question with Cultivation will be - will we have people at low enough health for it to ever to be worth taking that build. While raid testing logs/numbers suggest it may well be the case, experience with how gear and player power scales when an expansion actually goes live and people actually have viable fight strats makes me skeptical.

LOL, this thread is getting comical. Every post you make (and this thread in general) only highlights that our secondary choice is inherently a compromise. There is no clear choice for something you will not be swapping each encounter, even if you ignore Mythic+.

You could of just said "I don't know", because between that and your previous contradictions on haste, that is all I am getting from your posts.

[theburned]

Honestly, almost all Mythic raiders should just focus their gearing attention/gemming, etc on min maxing Mythic raiding. The Mythic + gearing rewards cap out at level 10, and that is a level that should be reasonably trivial to reach within a couple of weeks, especially given that Druids are pretty much the unquestionably "BiS" 5 man healer. As long as you can hit Mythic+ 10 with mythic raiding optimized gear, there's no reason to go for some weird "gearing compromise". Anything above Mythic+ 10 is just for bragging rights/cosmetic stuff.

While it is certainly true that the quality of gear doesn't increase from 10 to 11, the quantity of gear is whats more important, there is ofc a rate where it becomes inefficient to try to get higher keystones over just starting from whatever other keystone you have, if you manage to beat 10 within the timer, you have a good chance of beating a lvl 12 in reasonable time (not within the timer ofc.) Granting you 3 865 base items, rather than just the 1, and ofc if what Ion said will come true you are not guaranteed to get a piece from completing a 10 even, the weekly chest however will cap out at 10, but thats just 1 item pr week, which is good, but its nothing amazing, you need to get somewhat lucky with that piece.

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Gemming is far more important in legion than it has ever been, and unless you plan on burning bloods and rare gems all time, I advise spending more time than "Uh, I like the color of crit gems better than haste" on your gearing. Generally we get far less choice in other slots, we take the best item regardless of secondaries.

What makes you say this? 75 stat gems looks stronger than the 250 gems on beta.

[stormgust]

Amazing insight. If you are not interested in more complex discussion then don't discuss more complex topics. It really is that simple. I don't understand why you had to vomit out 2 paragraphs with 0 substance about this topic and spell choices.

It's not that I'm not interested in complex discussions, it's that I'm not interested in adding complexity where there is none (or at least only in entirely different, non computeable areas). There aren't a lot of complex mechanics involved in druid healing, which would lead to the statweights diverting from the place you'd expect them to lie as given by rating conversion. The only harder parts are living seed (for your weights, either you had incredible high regrowth useage, or ignored regrowths basecrit when determining crit value), but that's low relatively to regrowths large basecrit contribution (-> low single digit effect, it's not going to be the deciding factor for all of us) and getting an adequate measure on HoT stacks, but with an "adequate" (good luck deciding on some universal one, you just took average for some reason) measure, the weights are again derived immediately from stat conversation.

So is every other stat priority if you put it down like this. I have no idea what you even meant with this mind-numbingly dumb sentence.

That they're so close to each other in value, that it comes down to something not precisely measureable as faster casttimes or less randomness on living seed. Or something which you really have to decide on per case like HPM/HPCT.

Gemming is far more important in legion than it has ever been, and unless you plan on burning bloods and rare gems all time, I advise spending more time than "Uh, I like the color of crit gems better than haste" on your gearing.

It's going to be one or two gemslots, that's not going to be the world, and you may actually even end up replacing that by titanforged.

Generally we get far less choice in other slots, we take the best item regardless of secondaries.

iLvL should be the best way given how close together the secondaries actually are (+5 may be competitive with socket, higher levels not).

The goal is to find what fits a much more dynamic range of roles/content (while also being fairly permanent in nature), not only healing across varying group sizes, but also maximizing DPS, which is critical in Mythic+.

The only secondary with a really situation dependent performance is mastery, so it's sufficient to look at how mastery performs and wether it does perform reasonable ahead of other stats in "enough" situations (or wether you can acquire several gear sets to adjust that way).

[Tiberria]

LOL, this thread is getting comical. Every post you make (and this thread in general) only highlights that our secondary choice is inherently a compromise. There is no clear choice for something you will not be swapping each encounter, even if you ignore Mythic+.

You could of just said "I don't know", because between that and your previous contradictions on haste, that is all I am getting from your posts.

No, it isn't a compromise. It's a pretty clear choice that is determined by talent selection.

With a SoTF build, the stat priority is Haste >= Crit > Vers > Mastery

With a Cultivation build, the stat priority is Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

Sure, you could contort it into a compromise by saying - I might spec SoTF on X fights and Cultivation on Y fights, so I will randomly make my stat priority half way between the two builds. You'd probably be better off figuring out what works best for you, figure out what build you will use 70%+ of the time and just committing your gearing towards that, though.

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While it is certainly true that the quality of gear doesn't increase from 10 to 11, the quantity of gear is whats more important, there is ofc a rate where it becomes inefficient to try to get higher keystones over just starting from whatever other keystone you have, if you manage to beat 10 within the timer, you have a good chance of beating a lvl 12 in reasonable time (not within the timer ofc.) Granting you 3 865 base items, rather than just the 1, and ofc if what Ion said will come true you are not guaranteed to get a piece from completing a 10 even, the weekly chest however will cap out at 10, but thats just 1 item pr week, which is good, but its nothing amazing, you need to get somewhat lucky with that piece.

The gear that you get from the non weekly chests is capped at 865 (i.e. Heroic EN) base ilvl. It's pretty likely that we are going to be in full to mostly full heroic or higher ilvl gear within 2-3 weeks of raids opening. Once that happens, the value of getting those additional chests and that additional heroic gear becomes fairly marginal; you're just fishing for Titanforged procs at that point. It's kind of like how the heroic caches from the dungeon weekly event became not even worth going for as a Mythic raider after a couple of weeks.

The value of those extra mythic+ levels is only something that's going to last a couple of weeks. After that, it's basically cosmetic/lottery tickets.

[Sprucelee]

No, it isn't a compromise. It's a pretty clear choice that is determined by talent selection.

With a SoTF build, the stat priority is Haste >= Crit > Vers > Mastery

With a Cultivation build, the stat priority is Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

Sure, you could contort it into a compromise by saying - I might spec SoTF on X fights and Cultivation on Y fights, so I will randomly make my stat priority half way between the two builds. You'd probably be better off figuring out what works best for you, figure out what build you will use 70%+ of the time and just committing your gearing towards that, though.

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The gear that you get from the non weekly chests is capped at 865 (i.e. Heroic EN) base ilvl. It's pretty likely that we are going to be in full to mostly full heroic or higher ilvl gear within 2-3 weeks of raids opening. Once that happens, the value of getting those additional chests and that additional heroic gear becomes fairly marginal; you're just fishing for Titanforged procs at that point. It's kind of like how the heroic caches from the dungeon weekly event became not even worth going for as a Mythic raider after a couple of weeks.

The value of those extra mythic+ levels is only something that's going to last a couple of weeks. After that, it's basically cosmetic/lottery tickets.

"It isn't a compromise"

Two sentences later:

Admit that you will probably not be geared optimally 30% of the time (aiming at 70%).

Do you even get how silly your post reads? You type so much and say so little.... It's like your super power.

Anyway, I am leaning towards crit for gems ATM.

[kooz]

Did not read every page nor participated in beta

Is it true that in mythics+ you are supposed to dps as kitty while healing?

[Sprucelee]

Yes. Solar to swipe AOE being a key focus.

[Torty]

It's not that I'm not interested in complex discussions, it's that I'm not interested in adding complexity where there is none (or at least only in entirely different, non computeable areas).

Great. Then don't comment on stuff you are not interested in.

iLvL should be the best way given how close together the secondaries actually are (+5 may be competitive with socket, higher levels not).

And how did you figure that out? With your eye tests?

With a Cultivation build, the stat priority is Mastery > Haste > Crit > Vers

How did you come to this conclusion that Haste is better than Crit for Cultivation build? Cultivation doesn't scale with Haste. There will actually be a very large portion of your healing that will get 0 benefit from Haste.

This is exactly why I'm doing stat weights for myself. So that I won't have to rely on eye tests that are not even logically correct.

[Tiberria]

Cultivation doesn't scale with Haste. There will actually be a very large portion of your healing that will get 0 benefit from Haste.

This is actually incorrect. Cultivation is applied/reapplied with every qualifying Rejuv tick, and it heals for its first tick immediately upon application. Therefore, Cultivation scales linearly with haste (assuming the target doesn't exceed the 60% HP threshold). If the Cultivation HoT scaled with haste, it would be effectively triple dipping.

Plus, if you're taking Cultivation, haste actually becomes more important, because it lets you get more Rejuv casts out during windows where there are <60% HP targets available to put them on over and above the extra ticks.

[Torty]

Actually, never mind all this. I was completely wrong, Cultivation is definitely scaling with Haste. Base tick rate is 3 seconds and goes down with your Haste. Reapplication triggers Cultivation heal, because it already heals at the same intervals as Rejuv.

Easily testable on target dummy in garrison. Just switch your Class trinket with Warlord's Unseeing Eye and you will notice that last small tick of Cultivation goes up in power.

[stormgust]

And how did you figure that out? With your eye tests?

That's actually how it should work in Legion with the changed secondary budget scaling, unless you have some heavy outlier secondaries (which is only mastery at high stacks for rdruids). Though to correct myself, a socket should be better than +5 iLvL, and around a sidegrade at +10 (a really really small downgrad if you have supoptimal stats on the +10 iLvL item).

[Torty]

And that rule supposed to work as good on ilvl 830 as it will on ilvl 895? I'm amazed people are able to perform this math in their head without seeing items. It's actually quite impressive.

[dennisdkramer]

And that rule supposed to work as good on ilvl 830 as it will on ilvl 895? I'm amazed people are able to perform this math in their head without seeing items. It's actually quite impressive.

You're basically saying what relative value do better secondaries have compared to the increased intellect on a higher ilvl item. Generally speaking anyone who REALLY cares will sim it to be sure, and everyone else is just going to equip the higher ilvl item, but yeah its not as if anyone is doing the math in their head, its just a ballpark

[Sprucelee]

That's actually how it should work in Legion with the changed secondary budget scaling, unless you have some heavy outlier secondaries (which is only mastery at high stacks for rdruids). Though to correct myself, a socket should be better than +5 iLvL, and around a sidegrade at +10 (a really really small downgrad if you have supoptimal stats on the +10 iLvL item).

That is way off for rings/necks, which is part of the point, particularly early on with sockets garunteed in crafts JC, it is almost 35 ilvl.

[Tiberria]

That is way off for rings/necks, which is part of the point, particularly early on with sockets garunteed in crafts JC, it is almost 35 ilvl.

Crafted gear caps at 650 ilvl, which means that it becomes almost irrelevant by week 1-2 of raids being open. Normal mode gear is 650 and has a chance to be Titanforged. Heroic raid gear is 665 ilvl. If you can clear mythic +10, you will get several chests worth of 665 gear (you can do 5 runs with everyone in your party having a keystone and 9 runs if everyone also has an alt with a keystone). 665 gear will basically be coming out of our ears within the first couple of weeks, which is going to basically put crafted gear on the scrap heap after the initial pre-raid gearing push.

I also don't understand why you think gems will be so ultra rare and pricey compared to previous expansions. Blood of Sargeras is basically the equivalent of Spirits of Harmony from MoP (yes I know MoP gems didn't use them but in terms of the general system) and the equivalent of Taladite Crystal gating in WoD. It's a BoP crafting mat just like the previous 2 expansions. They will be rare/have inflated value for the first couple of weeks, but the supply will soon outstrip the demand (especially with crafted gear being effectively less valuable in Legion - it was upgradable to heroic ilvl in MoP and now it caps 15 ilvl behind), and they will basically be throwaway items within a month.

[Sprucelee]

Crafted gear caps at 650 ilvl, which means that it becomes almost irrelevant by week 1-2 of raids being open. Normal mode gear is 650 and has a chance to be Titanforged. Heroic raid gear is 665 ilvl. If you can clear mythic +10, you will get several chests worth of 665 gear (you can do 5 runs with everyone in your party having a keystone and 9 runs if everyone also has an alt with a keystone). 665 gear will basically be coming out of our ears within the first couple of weeks, which is going to basically put crafted gear on the scrap heap after the initial pre-raid gearing push.

I also don't understand why you think gems will be so ultra rare and pricey compared to previous expansions. Blood of Sargeras is basically the equivalent of Spirits of Harmony from MoP (yes I know MoP gems didn't use them but in terms of the general system) and the equivalent of Taladite Crystal gating in WoD. It's a BoP crafting mat just like the previous 2 expansions. They will be rare/have inflated value for the first couple of weeks, but the supply will soon outstrip the demand (especially with crafted gear being effectively less valuable in Legion - it was upgradable to heroic ilvl in MoP and now it caps 15 ilvl behind), and they will basically be throwaway items within a month.

You are honestly hard to follow... and just throw out random tangential thoughts.... The rings/necks being crafted initially (only noteworthy due to a guaranteed socket) does not change the fact that sockets will always scale much stronger on those particular slots. I was just noting that it is not as simple as "X ilvls = socket" across all gear slots.

And go for it, swap those gems every encounter since you seem to have all the answers... Though it seems like you barely have any confidence in what that would be anyway... lol

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Here is a question for everyone; how confident can you be in a weight that an addon spits out when it is highly dependent on how you leverage it?

Does a low stat weight for Mastery in an encounter show that it is inherently weak, or is it also simply a measure of how well you used it?

[masterhorus8]

Here is a question for everyone; how confident can you be in a weight that an addon spits out when it is highly dependent on how you leverage it?

Does a low stat weight for Mastery in an encounter show that it is inherently weak, or is it also simply a measure of how well you used it?

I'm pretty confident in the weights that it's putting out because of how it changes depending on the scenarios that I'm healing in.

As for the power of mastery, I personally think that it's how it's used. When used properly, it's pretty damn strong. BUT a huge importance in the power of a stat is (possibly "was" due to Legion) its power/usefulness in a raid environment (for pve of course). And due to that, I rank mastery pretty low for general use in raids.

With that said, Legion is bringing the importance of 5mans up a bit for a large majority of the population of the game. And due to that change, it significantly increases the effectiveness. To the point that I'm just going to have a second set of gear with mastery for Mythic+ dungeons.

So all-in-all, I say mastery's weight is purely dependent on what you are looking to do in the game.