About Illidan

[Strategos]

I very much consider betraying your people because of your self-interest evil. Retconning things to justify Illidan's many actions is ruining his character. Illidan as a character was defined by his selfish desires but he happened to have the same ultimate goal as the denizens of Azeorth which was to defeat the legion. That was why people could work with him.

First of all you're wrong to look at it as 'betraying your own people'. Regardless of what he did, he was betraying his people. If he did nothing or assisted Malfurion/Tyrande, he was betraying the Highborne and his Queen. In warning Azhsara, he betrayed Malfurion and Tyrande.

You still haven't stated what was retconned that you find problematic, you just keep throwing that phrase around like a talking point.

If you want to whine about retcons, complain about the WOTA trilogy, or the story of TBC.

What you're saying here in the underlined portion is literally what we get in the Illidan novel. Nothing has changed. This has not been recently retconed, this is still the same Illidan.

However, it WAS retconed in TBC and WOTA trilogy - which was a mess of a story until this novel cleared so many things up.

[Wildmoon]

First of all you're wrong to look at it as 'betraying your own people'. Regardless of what he did, he was betraying his people. If he did nothing or assisted Malfurion/Tyrande, he was betraying the Highborne and his Queen. In warning Azhsara, he betrayed Malfurion and Tyrande.

You still haven't stated what was retconned that you find problematic, you just keep throwing that phrase around like a talking point.

If you want to whine about retcons, complain about the WOTA trilogy, or the story of TBC.

What you're saying here in the underlined portion is literally what we get in the Illidan novel. Nothing has changed. This has not been recently retconed, this is still the same Illidan.

However, it WAS retconed in TBC and WOTA trilogy - which was a mess of a story until this novel cleared so many things up.

err wut? You seriously consider siding with Azshara not betraying? The highborne wanted to bring Sargeras into Azeroth and he would obviously destroy the world. Azshara was no longer someone you would want to side with if you wanted to actually save the world and the night elf.

The new quests in Legion retconned some events of WotA trilogy which was canon. TBC was never a retcon too. It didn't change preexisting stories. Illidan was just mad in TBC after his loss to Arthas. That was not a retcon.

Illidan from the new novel is not the Illidan I knew from WC3. Certainly not the one who would betray his people for the sake of his addiction. This new Illidan is no longer selfish. He is portrayed like he always had his people's best interest in mind which was obviously not true in both WC3's WotA or Novel's WotA.

BTW, Legion's Illidan is based off WotA's trilogy's version.

[Strategos]

err wut? You seriously consider siding with Azshara not betraying? The highborne wanted to bring Sargeras into Azeroth and he would obviously destroy the world.

The new quests in Legion retconned some events of WotA trilogy which was canon. TBC was never a retcon too. Illidan from the new novel is not the Illidan I knew from WC3. Certainly not the one who would betray his people for the sake of his addiction. This new Illidan is no longer selfish. He is portrayed like he always had his people's best interest in mind which was obviously not true in both WC3's WotA or Novel's WotA.

I never said that. Read more closely - regardless of his course of action he is betraying someone here. Hence, it is meaningless to accuse him of 'betrayal'. Especially when it is ultimately the evil that he betrays time and time again.

He is very much 'The Betrayer' more-so to the Legion than to his own people. It's ironic that both sides call him by the name of 'The Betrayer'. Illidan from the new novel is the first time I've even seen the real Illidan since Warcraft 3. I think you just allowed the WOTA to influence your view of Illidan to the point of warping how you viewed him in WC3.

WotA trilogy retconned WC3 manual, which was canon, on multiple levels so I have no problem with WotA trilogy being retconned. I don't even like the WotA trilogy, it's a heap of time-travel rubbish. I'm actually super glad it's no longer in print because it's garbage storytelling that is very much inconsistent with WC3 lore manual on many levels.

TBC entirely retconned WC3 Illidan's character. Let's forget everything we know about Legion and the new Illidan novel for a moment.

Illidan is enemies with the Burning Legion. He has just failed to destroy the Lich King and returned to the Outlands where he reigns as lord over a group of rebels and misfits all with a common enemy - The Burning Legion.

We introduce this new power in Outland that never existed, namely the forces of Shattrath, the unbroken Draenei, and the Na'ru, who are ultimate rivals to the Burning Legion.

So what happens? Naturally Illidan attacks them because that makes a whole fuckload of sense. We name the Illidan 'The Burning Crusade' where we're supposed to fight against the Burning Legion, and what do we do? We spend the entire expansion fighting one of the two largest factions dedicated to fighting against the Burning Legion. The Illidari forces had no reason to fight against us other than -designated insanity-. We and the Na'ru would have been Illidan's strongest allies against the Legion. It made no fucking sense from someone as good a schemer as Illidan to attack Shattrath and make enemies of the Burning Legion's greatest enemies aside from himself.

We go kill his two greatest lieutenants, Vashj and Kael'thas, both dedicated and loyal to him and his fight against the Burning Legion. Then we find out KT has betrayed him in favor of the Legion, and Akama, his third major lieutenant betrays him as well, which again makes no fucking sense aside from -designated insanity-. Then we go kill him with the help of a psycho Maeiv who literally almost led to the death of the Night Elf leader Tyrande because she is vengeance-crazed and obsessed with killing Illidan at all costs.

The new Illidan is still very-much selfish and Maeiv even notes how he is gifted at the art of self-preservation. He still craves power. He hates Tyrande and Malfurion and his people for what they did to him (even though a small part of him still loves Tyrande). He thinks he should be hailed a hero of his people yet they refuse to acknowledge him and he hates them for it. He's willing to sacrifice and betray others and use people as pawns to accomplish his schemes. He's willing to imprison and punish Maeiv for entirely selfish reasons of vengeance.

WC3 is entirely compatible with the Illidan Novel in terms of characterization.

TBC is not, until the context of the Illidan novel provides some minor adjustments.

And WotA is just a pile of time-travel garbage.

[Wildmoon]

I think you are stretching it here. I remember clearly every version of Illidan. People call him the betrayer because he betrayed his people and it's very much significant. You can't just wave it off because he betrayed many people. His betrayal of his people was evil. WotA novels retcon many things but one thing it didn't was Illidan's character. He was a dick in WC3 and he was a dick in the trilogy. You are looking at something that was not there in WC3's Illidan. He was very much a betrayer of his people. He was someone who would not even sacrifice his own power to save his people. From what I am seeing, you seem to think that Illidan was good in his intention to betray his people in WC3. lol


These recent retcons like the flashback quest in Blackrook Hold is making up justifications for Illidan's actions. Once, you are put into the position that you can't help but to agree with Illidan's actions then that's when his character is being ruined. Oh do you know that his destinty was forged at the dawn of creation of casted into Azeroth? lol

[Strategos]

I think you are stretching it here. I remember clearly every version of Illidan. People call him the betrayer because he betrayed his people and it's very much significant. You can't just wave it off because he betrayed many people. His betrayal of his people was evil. WotA novels retcon many things but one thing it didn't was Illidan's character. He was a dick in WC3 and he was a dick in the trilogy. You are looking at something that was not there in WC3's Illidan. He was very much a betrayer of his people. He was someone who would not even sacrifice his own power to save his people. From what I am seeing, you seem to think that Illidan was good in his intention to betray his people in WC3. lol


These recent retcons like the flashback quest in Blackrook Hold is making up justifications for Illidan's actions. Once, you are put into the position that you can't help but to agree with Illidan's actions then that's when his character is being ruined. Oh do you know that his destinty was forged at the dawn of creation of casted into Azeroth? lol

I don't think I'm stretching it I think you are. He betrayed Sargeras and the Burning Legion far more than he ever betrayed his own people. All sides call him the betrayer. Illidan was never an 'evil' character, not even in Warcraft 3. He was always been best described as chaotic neutral until TBC/WOTA started with their reckless retconning that specifically made him evil.

They did the very thing you are criticizing now - made up justifications for Illidan's actions - aka designated insanity losing his mind, being an emotional wreck with no self-control, etc. When in Warcraft 3, he was portrayed as one of the most clever, cunning, and controlled characters in the entire game. In TFT you literally play half the night elf campaign against him, only to find out that what he was doing wasn't really evil like you thought all along, he was trying to stop Arthas and the Lich King in Northrend. Heroic? No, becomes very much this ethically complicated issue. But definitely not evil like you initially thought. This is literally a mirror foreshadowing how he is being treated in "Illidan" the novel.

Misunderstood, but not evil. That was always the theme of Illidan as early as the original ROC night elf campaign where he is rewarded with his saving Ashenvale from corruption and destruction of Tichondrius, leader of the Dreadlords with attitudes of disgust, shame, and banishment by those who are supposed to be his closest friends.

You know who was a dick in WC3? Everyone was a dick in WC3, even Malfurion.
I don't care about if he was a dick in WotA because quite frankly it's time travel mess that isn't even printed anymore. It's taken a backseat role to "Illidan" and Legion in terms of canon and I'm completely okay with this. I find it far more loyal to the original Warcraft 3 Lore than WOTA/TBC was.

So I haven't played Legion yet, so I have no idea what you're talking about with the Blackrook Hold flashbacks, but I will agree with you that I think the underlined bit is cheesy. It's no different from the sort of cheesy they've been doing in all of their expansions now since WOTLK that actually had meaningful stories.

At least this time, it's to the benefit of my favorite character for once.

[Enthralled]

Told his whole life he is destined for great things. Fails at being druid, brother is doing amazing and gets the girl he likes. Goes to do magic stuff, hey Rhonin is time travelling and fucking him up with piss poor teaching! Sees the Legion is fucking things up, we must do the thing. No don't we are doing this other thing. No gotta do it this way you are losing, noooo we are awesome you suck Illidan. Fuck you guys going to get power, betray the legion stop the queen. Yeah did the thing, need a new well though our people need it get some well water. Start a new well, Illidan nooooo we are going to be nature people I Malfurion have decided for our entire race what we are going to do. I did the thing, nooooo Illidan why stop him with violence. Fuck dat magic pew pew! Noooooo Illidan now we gotta lock you up forever.

Fast forward to Tyrande breaking into prison, killing the guards. Malfurion said not to do the thing but I did the thing we need you Illidan. Bitch you are going to blame this on me aren't you? Maybe. Fine I'll help, oh shit lots of demons need help oooh a skull named Gul'dan. Om nom nom power boost into demon mode! Fuck yeah stopping the Legion, awesome! Noooooo Illidan why did you do the thing and kill all those guards I have no brother. Tyrande you whore. Fine fuck y'all I'm going to go hang out with the naga and holy fuck zombies all over the place. Time to stop the Lich King with super spell! Illidan noooooo gotta do it my way you are too dangerous! Son of a bitch you broke my spell now I gotta 1v1 this Arthas punk! Ow... screw this world I'm going to Outland to get my revenge on the Legion. You guys work with me now we are going to beat the Legion by any means neccessary. But I can't tell you guys what the plan is because if I do the Legion will mind rape you and learn my plan so trust me. Akama is with you man, I'm totally not with him I just want my crib back. And then shit goes horribly wrong and fuck it is Maeve. BITCH YOU KILLED MY LESBIAN LOVER I'LL FUCKING TRAP YOU IN CRYSTAL FOREVER! And now I'm in a crystal... and why is she grinding on my prison?! Who the fuck is this orc and what is he doing with my body?! SON OF A BITCH!

I don't know who you are, but this is awesome and I am practically pissing myself laughing.
@Strategos, I have argued with Wildmoon about this for months and he doesn't budge...
The thing is, I am not sure why the W3 version of events is even under discussion? It was retconned ages ago, right?
There's even a whole new narrative in Chronicle which has things even a bit different and that is the one that should be considered current canon.

[Strategos]

I don't know who you are, but this is awesome and I am practically pissing myself laughing.
@Strategos, I have argued with Wildmoon about this for months and he doesn't budge...
The thing is, I am not sure why the W3 version of events is even under discussion? It was retconned ages ago, right?
There's even a whole new narrative in Chronicle which has things even a bit different and that is the one that should be considered current canon.

Because their entire argument is hipster bullshit hinging on the fact that they are now retconning Illidan and 'whitewashing him' as a hero when he was an evil character in TBC and WOTA trilogy.

Which is ignorant crap. The original Illidan of Warcraft 3 was cunning and clever and very much the same Illidan we see in the new novel. It is the TBC storyline and WOTA trilogy which are the bullshit retcons.

Blizzard is redeeming the character now just as much as they are redeeming their back storytelling from TBC//WOTA trilogy

These morons complaining about the whitewashing of Illidan in this novel retconning everything have it entirely backwards. This IS who Illidan always was.

It was TBC/WOTA that the character assassination happened

[vilememory]

I don't know who you are, but this is awesome and I am practically pissing myself laughing.
@Strategos, I have argued with Wildmoon about this for months and he doesn't budge...
The thing is, I am not sure why the W3 version of events is even under discussion? It was retconned ages ago, right?
There's even a whole new narrative in Chronicle which has things even a bit different and that is the one that should be considered current canon.

I am but a man, cursed to do what must be done. There are those that would call me shit poster, but I care not for their opinions. For I will do what needs to be done, no matter what the cost.