Sooo, where do Blood DK tanks lie now?

[redfella]

Problem with that, is that Demon Hunters can get mass grip AND it's a shorter cooldown. The implementation is different, as you have to place it in a spot, but that's not a huge difference. We get it baseline at 3 minutes for a cooldown, and talented to 2. Demon Hunters talent into it and get it at a 1 minute cooldown.


Demon Hunters get a ranged silence as well as a ranged mass "fear", as well as their single target interrupt to go with their mass grip.

The only thing they're missing is a way to bring a single target to them, but they can always heroic leap *shrug*

Mass grip and single grip increase your 5man groups DPS more than aoe fear and 8yd mini grip (cos every mob is already at cleave range already). DH grip/fear is just an extra interrupt pretty much. Mass grip is 20yd radius, so 2.5 times larger.. There is no contest there. A tank leaping to a single mob pales in comparison to pulling the stray mob back into 4 man cleave.

There are numerous packs with mobs that try to run from you to range and grips and ranged stuns are more than a convenience there.

Please go try out the new dungeons and stop posting stupid stuff until you've experienced them with both classes (hint: I have).

Ps. DH grip is a talent which you don't even take because quickened sigils (the thing that makes them have 20% reduced cd) is a lot better.

[Resurgo]

...
Ps. DH grip is a talent which you don't even take because quickened sigils (the thing that makes them have 20% reduced cd) is a lot better.

So which of the two of us are out of date?

Last I recalled, is what you're saying (that the DH grip is in the talent tree). Current blizzard talent calculator and wowhead now show that spot where DH grip used to be is now Fel Eruption.
(I'd check myself, but the last time I played, I wasn't looking that far ahead into the talent tree since I didn't have access to it)

...
Please go try out the new dungeons and stop posting stupid stuff until you've experienced them with both classes (hint: I have).

I would, but for the moment, I only have what experience I have on live and not the Beta.
On the one hand, I believe it's a tuning knob that Blizzard turned up for DH at level 100 to make them "competitive". However, with the currently reduced toolkit, and being relatively undergeared compared to my ilvl 740 DK, DH survivability on currently live content is about the same.

For being undergeared, I'd say the warrior is "currently" also better on survivability. Even after their Ignore Pain nerf. So, I wonder if they'll scale as well? Or be nerfed again?

So, yeah, it's likely not fair to make comparisons now at level 100.
However with current content, both of my higher ilvl geared DK's don't feel that much better survivability wise compared to either the DH or Warrior at ilvl 715. (that's current content running Mythic HFC, Mythic Dungeons, etc)
Granted current raids are now nerfed, and pretty much all my tanks have outgeared Mythic Dungeons.

In all this, am I assuming you're saying that they will be different at 110?
If so, how will they stack up relative to each other? (Druids still > Warriors > Paladins > DK > Monk > DH?)

[HTowN]

So which of the two of us are out of date?

Last I recalled, is what you're saying (that the DH grip is in the talent tree). Current blizzard talent calculator and wowhead now show that spot where DH grip used to be is now Fel Eruption.
(I'd check myself, but the last time I played, I wasn't looking that far ahead into the talent tree since I didn't have access to it)

It was baseline. It was moved into talent tree.

[redfella]

You are.

Sigil of Chains was made into a talent like 20+ days ago. It has never been a talent before that. You aren't even recalling wrong, you are just plain misinformed about a lot of things.

Like I said before, instead of theorycrafting (and failing), go test things in action. Gorefiend's Grasp and SoC should not even be mentioned in the same sentence -- the first is an awesome ability, the second one is a crappy AoE interrupt without a silence.

Ps. DH has extra stats at lvl 100 to balance for lack of talents. They gradually meet other classes on the way to 110.

[redfella]

Raidwise I would say Warrior (because Druids were nerfed - but assume IP nerf is still coming) > Druid > DK > Paladin > Monk (good mitigation but spends too much healer mana) > DH (suffers from spikes due low stamina and not having 100% uptime on DS with currently attainable gear).

Balance may change still a lot before first raid comes. Pick what is fun, not what is currently #1.

I'll be maining DK with most likely DH for split raids.

[Resurgo]

You are.

Sigil of Chains was made into a talent like 20+ days ago. It has never been a talent before that. You aren't even recalling wrong, you are just plain misinformed about a lot of things.

Like I said before, instead of theorycrafting (and failing), go test things in action. Gorefiend's Grasp and SoC should not even be mentioned in the same sentence -- the first is an awesome ability, the second one is a crappy AoE interrupt without a silence.

Ps. DH has extra stats at lvl 100 to balance for lack of talents. They gradually meet other classes on the way to 110.

No, I followed Arkandae's link, which was to Wowhead showing a 2 min cooldown Sigil with it off the Talent tree.
I still remembered it as a 1 min cooldown.

While Gorefiends is arguably a stronger and better utility, the only issue is not having it when you need/want it. Of course, I'm only going by personal use through current dungeons and trash clears, but something able to be used every 1 min seems a lot more useful than 3 or 2 mins. I can't imagine they would design dungeons that much differently that I won't want/need a mass grip more than once every 2 mins.

Good to know their tuning knob will at least be back in line at 110. They're a bit stupidly overpowered for the moment.

[Tojara]

2 min grip is okay, still wish it was 1, but whatever. Nice thing is there is a decent amount of kiting and 70% snare on DnD with that talent is actually pretty handy.

[Raiju]

Ps. DH grip is a talent which you don't even take because quickened sigils (the thing that makes them have 20% reduced cd) is a lot better.

That depends massively on your comp for 5mans. Sigil of chains is not even a question if you're running BM/fdk for stronger stampede/sindragosas

[Deleted]

The DH grip may not be as good as a DK's but you can make do with it. Like if you need a portal you need to bring a warlock. If you need a class that can easily immune some mechanics you need to bring rogues. You don't need to bring DK's anymore since you can make do with a DH.

This would be okay if DH was really lacking but it isn't. It does good DPS, it has insane mobility and has really good cooldowns. Adding a small mass grip onto thatis insane their kit is already strong enough without it, they didn't need it.

[Milocow]

is DH healing really better than DKs? their healing doesn't scale with incoming damage at all i dont understand how can it be better than us?

also its weird they never update shackles of bryndaor? its like a permanent 25% cost reduction to DS

[HTowN]

is DH healing really better than DKs? their healing doesn't scale with incoming damage at all i dont understand how can it be better than us?

Some ppl are trying to convince themselves that DH is better in every way so they can reroll.

[Darkguyver2020]

Ahhh the Hyperbole brand of whine. Outstanding choice, sir.

Yes indeed. Would you like some cheese with that?

[Nnyco]

death knight - immobile, but strong when close
demon hunter - mobility like crazy, outdpses dk

uhm wat blizz

[Deleted]

is DH healing really better than DKs? their healing doesn't scale with incoming damage at all i dont understand how can it be better than us?

also its weird they never update shackles of bryndaor? its like a permanent 25% cost reduction to DS

DH heals based of AP. My Demon Hunter who is currently 725 heals for 10k more, with soul cleave, than the base healing of Death Strike on my 751 Death Knight. This doesn't include healing from the hot with the talent for DH.

All this means is that DH are suited a lot better for burst with this type of heal, as if they're multitude of awesome cds wasn't enough. DK's are not. Before WoD came out and the new DS was announced there were some blizz devs giving reasons why it was changed from the mop version, into the version we knew a few months ago. One big reason was the fact that being able to heal a crap tonne of damage back is nice and all, but if that damage killed you. Well you can't heal if you're dead. But apparently blizzard forgot this and went back to give us the old MoP DS, make it even worse than before and give us no defensive CD's to pop preemptively for the burst.

Shackles of Bryndaor is not a permanent 25% CDR. Since it's text says it needs to heal more than 10%. So you need to take slightly more than 50% damage to trigger the effect. Since 20% of 50% is 10%, won't trigger. But 20% of 51% is 10.5% so it will trigger. It's a good legendary but the gorefiends waist one, I forget it's name, is a lot better. You can almost get 100% uptime on VB, which is why they nerfed red thirst the other week. It interacts with UE, which helps a lot.

[Resurgo]

is DH healing really better than DKs? their healing doesn't scale with incoming damage at all i dont understand how can it be better than us?

also its weird they never update shackles of bryndaor? its like a permanent 25% cost reduction to DS

I don't think they're necessarily supposed to be better than a DK. For the moment at level 100, (due to inflated stats to compete with only 2 talents) they might have almost as much effective healing. However, I haven't played 110 to know.

If you go back a page or two, redfella gives the AP coefficients for the healing amount.
I only question (for the moment) whether or not DK healing trends more towards overhealing/shielding, because of how the mechanics of leech and absorbs work.

I would agree with redfella that DH healing leaves them more prone to spikes in their health. Though any DK that's played back in the day should be pretty familiar with being a spiky tank.

[HTowN]

DH heals based of AP. My Demon Hunter who is currently 725 heals for 10k more, with soul cleave, than the base healing of Death Strike on my 751 Death Knight. This doesn't include healing from the hot with the talent for DH.

DH is currently overtuned on live. Try beta.

[Milocow]

DH heals based of AP. My Demon Hunter who is currently 725 heals for 10k more, with soul cleave, than the base healing of Death Strike on my 751 Death Knight. This doesn't include healing from the hot with the talent for DH.

All this means is that DH are suited a lot better for burst with this type of heal, as if they're multitude of awesome cds wasn't enough. DK's are not. Before WoD came out and the new DS was announced there were some blizz devs giving reasons why it was changed from the mop version, into the version we knew a few months ago. One big reason was the fact that being able to heal a crap tonne of damage back is nice and all, but if that damage killed you. Well you can't heal if you're dead. But apparently blizzard forgot this and went back to give us the old MoP DS, make it even worse than before and give us no defensive CD's to pop preemptively for the burst.

Shackles of Bryndaor is not a permanent 25% CDR. Since it's text says it needs to heal more than 10%. So you need to take slightly more than 50% damage to trigger the effect. Since 20% of 50% is 10%, won't trigger. But 20% of 51% is 10.5% so it will trigger. It's a good legendary but the gorefiends waist one, I forget it's name, is a lot better. You can almost get 100% uptime on VB, which is why they nerfed red thirst the other week. It interacts with UE, which helps a lot.

probably because necks and rings still have agi on them
and what are you talking about?
DS heals minimum 10% of health, legendary refunds it if it heals more than or equal to 10% of health, just tested on beta its permanent cost reduction
just wondering they forgot to update shackles when they buffed DS from 7to 10% minimum

[redfella]

DH heals based of AP. My Demon Hunter who is currently 725 heals for 10k more, with soul cleave, than thebase healing of Death Strike on my 751 Death Knight, which is an irrelevant point because you are always taking damage when you need to heal yourself, sorry for using logical fallacies while arguing. This doesn't include healing from the hot with the talent for DH. .

Fixed that for you. DH healing is in fact sup-bar compared to DK, but that has to do with Blizzard intention of having them be sort of a hybrid between proactive and reactive tank, as it is, their proactive AND reactive mitigation is lackluster, but this is most likely going to change with numbers tuning in the future.

One big reason was the fact that being able to heal a crap tonne of damage back is nice and all, but if that damage killed you. Well you can't heal if you're dead. But apparently blizzard forgot this and went back to give us the old MoP DS, make it even worse than before and give us no defensive CD's to pop preemptively for the burst.

You are plain wrong, for reasons which I've explained already a few times here, but let's reiterate and keep comparing the two reactive tanks:

If you miss the MoP model of being a quite spiky tank, DH fits well for you apart from the fact you won't push yourself to 100% after each selfheal like you used to in MoP (Solo tanking Garrosh <3). The relative spikyness of DH comes from not being able to be proactive 24/7 (DS uptime vs Bone Shield uptime) and having smaller health pool than DK - this would be fine if pure melee hits didn't already bring this fault out in raid encounters, but they do. Legion does not have similar burst damage abilities that you have gotten used used to in the past and on live, raid tanking damage intake has changed substantially where playing badly strains your healers more than leaves you dead if you missed mitigating a special ability.

DK doesn't have it that bad in that aspect with their constant absorb and higher health pool. DS will also heal a lot more in content that actually hurts, while Soul Cleave might match it, or even win, in wet noodle fights.

TL;DR; Soul Cleave heals for more than Death Strike in meaningless content where damage intake is so minor that self healing doesn't even matter, and 99% of Death Strikes/Soul Cleaves are already used purely to avoid resource capping and not to actually heal. In meaningful content, Death Strike > Soul Cleave by a relatively large margin from the actual healing amount viewpoint and availability standpoint (Can pool 3DS, can only pool 1.5 SC).

Some ppl are trying to convince themselves that DH is better in every way so they can reroll.

Agreed, it would be fine if they just were convincing themselves, but spreading misinformation is a disservice to all.

That depends massively on your comp for 5mans. Sigil of chains is not even a question if you're running BM/fdk for stronger stampede/sindragosas

Ah yes, I suppose there are niche situations that it works in. Still wish the range would get a small increase to make it generally viable.

[Resurgo]

I'm assuming you've done Mythic level raids out there, redfella.

Not arguing that DH healing is worse than DK. What I'm wondering now is, given that it's been widely reported that we won't see the level of spike damage in the past like we did in the MoP era, how much more stress will a DH cause a healer given that the spike level of tank damage is still prevalent on many folks' minds?

During the MoP era, we pretty much needed that level of healing+shielding as DKs. Heck, I think Paragons would still one shot you if I recall correctly. Given that lack of spike damage that we saw back then, how much worse off is the DH healing model in today's Mythics?

[redfella]

I'm assuming you've done Mythic level raids out there, redfella.

Not available yet on beta.

Not arguing that DH healing is worse than DK. What I'm wondering now is, given that it's been widely reported that we won't see the level of spike damage in the past like we did in the MoP era, how much more stress will a DH cause a healer given that the spike level of tank damage is still prevalent on many folks' minds?

Raid bosses melee for pretty hard, might be beta tuning, might not be. People have found that even those are annoying to deal as a DH since you won't be able to heal back after every few swings, having higher health pools (Druid, DK) and steady mitigation (Druid, Warr, DK, Paladin) helps a lot in that aspect. For example Monks mitigate the best out of all tanks and have the smoothest damage intake, but they just eat too much healer mana (due you can only purify 50% of stagger dot). DH without DS up is pretty much a Rogue with extra bit of armor standing in front of a boss.

During the MoP era, we pretty much needed that level of healing+shielding as DKs. Heck, I think Paragons would still one shot you if I recall correctly. Given that lack of spike damage that we saw back then, how much worse off is the DH healing model in today's Mythics?

Edit: Misread DH as DK. DH is fine in higher Mythics since you can kite when needed, just need to not start pulls with 0 Pain, pulling mobs without DS up hurts. Healing is ok when you got fragments, and luckily DH has tools to get more of those at lvl 110 vs 100. It's still a tad bit RNG oriented for my taste, but it works. DH is very good for 5man content imho, it's raids where they struggle.