Unholy Clawing Shadows damage has been changed to 130% weapon damage

[Trifle]

Your welcome, guess that i had to go simple on it cause you couldn't grasp what i was saying earlier

To be fair I don't think you quite grasp what you're saying either.

'Full' crits vs partial crits on SS are irrelevant, even during burst windows. If you have 25% crit chance on SS and get a partial crit (phys), normal hit, partial crit (shadow), normal hit over 4 swings, thats not actually different to the 'full' crit and 3 normal hits you'd expect from CS in the same scenario.

Unless you're concocting some magical scenario where you only get to SS/CS once, if it crits you win and if it doesn't (or you get a partial SS) you wipe. In which case, sure, CS is better. But you're still wiping 75% of the time, so who cares.

And in fact 3 random rolls vs 2 random rolls, the 3 rolls is less random as the more you roll the quicker you'll trend towards the average.

[Tellof]

To be fair I don't think you quite grasp what you're saying either.

'Full' crits vs partial crits on SS are irrelevant, even during burst windows. If you have 25% crit chance on SS and get a partial crit (phys), normal hit, partial crit (shadow), normal hit over 4 swings, thats not actually different to the 'full' crit and 3 normal hits you'd expect from CS in the same scenario.

Unless you're concocting some magical scenario where you only get to SS/CS once, if it crits you win and if it doesn't (or you get a partial SS) you wipe. In which case, sure, CS is better. But you're still wiping 75% of the time, so who cares.

And in fact 3 random rolls vs 2 random rolls, the 3 rolls is less random as the more you roll the quicker you'll trend towards the average.

Another person who gets it! Also, I was being completely sarcastic with him before. He's trolling me with that "I guess I just had to simplify it for you" business.

[Rothulean1]

No it doesn't. A burst window simply means you're going to have a small sample size of skills which will make it less likely that your DPS is close to the theoretical average. When you think about it in terms of many burst windows it will again average out. Progression kills are not decided on a single pull - Blizzard doesn't give you 1 attempt and then say "Sorry man, you got unlucky, better luck next tier." Over the course of sometimes hundreds of pulls it will average out.

The bolded is exactly what Im talking about. CS gives me a much higher chance of going significantly above my theoretical average in a short window. Creating this random "you dont just get 1 attempt" nonsense isnt what Im talking about. Ive already agreed with your point: over time, it averages out.

But my point remains true: in short burst windows, CS getting a full crit matters.

It may not matter when comparing multiple burst windows. But if a fight has, lets say, 2 burst windows at 10 seconds each...then I absolutely care that my best shot at doing the most burst will be CS. If a fight has 10+ burst windows then no, CS vs SS doesnt matter. But most fights dont have that many.

[Marx]

Rothulean1 - There is no guarantee that you will get crits during that window of time with CS over SS. In a fight with only 1 or 2 burst windows the average will come over multiple attempts rather than the number of burst periods during the fight. It will still average out.

[Rothulean1]

There is. Most burst phases are aoe packs.

[Eruntien]

How does this affect it for PvP, is it a buff or a nerf?

[Tellof]

The bolded is exactly what Im talking about. CS gives me a much higher chance of going significantly above my theoretical average in a short window. Creating this random "you dont just get 1 attempt" nonsense isnt what Im talking about. Ive already agreed with your point: over time, it averages out.

But my point remains true: in short burst windows, CS getting a full crit matters.

It may not matter when comparing multiple burst windows. But if a fight has, lets say, 2 burst windows at 10 seconds each...then I absolutely care that my best shot at doing the most burst will be CS. If a fight has 10+ burst windows then no, CS vs SS doesnt matter. But most fights dont have that many.

Let's be clear about what I think you are talking about, and in that context I'll respond. It seems as though you're talking about the number of swings in a skill vs. crit chance, and which skill will perform better. "in short burst windows, CS getting a full crit matters." Pretty sure I'm following you. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume there are 2 versions of Clawing Shadows: 1 that swings once for full damage, one that swings twice for half damage each and both having a chance to crit. If this isn't the case, you wouldn't bring up "full crit" as others have. I'm not comparing CS to SS in this scenario because it is not apples to apples.

So, to my point: you're contradicting yourself. You're saying that CS (single-swing) will give you a more likely chance of over-performing during a short burst window, but then you go on to say that over time it will average out. How can this be? If it is more likely that the single-swing CS will outperform the double-swing CS, then wouldn't the average also favor the single-swing version? Additionally, just because a small sample size will result in you potentially not being close to the average, that doesn't mean that it will always be higher as you might be suggesting. It will be lower just as often as it is higher. This is the symmetry of the random distribution.

To really drive my point home, I simulated all that I've talked about to demonstrate the math I gave earlier in the context of pseudo-random numbers as the game uses. http://pastebin.com/TeY74CA3
I simulated the average damage of both versions of the hypothetical CS I'm talking about over 100,000 uses.
I also simulated 100,000 burst windows of 10 seconds where each ability is used in that window, the damage tallied, and then a winner declared. The victories for each are also tallied.

The results:
Single-hit victories: 43078
Double-hit victories: 45142
Ties: 11780
Single-hit average: 1253
Double-hit average: 1251

As expected, they are the same within a statistical margin of error. It doesn't get more clear than that.

[Leviatharan]

How does this affect it for PvP, is it a buff or a nerf?

Buff; without the weird AP calculation, it can outscale Scourge Strike very well now against higher-armored classes, depending on your Mastery. Before, the massive cut to its AP scaling made it a slight nerf with expected gear levels.

[Rooskie1993]

How does this affect it for PvP, is it a buff or a nerf?

The previous nerf did not effect PvP so this is probably a buff even more so.

[Deleted]

The previous nerf did not effect PvP so this is probably a buff even more so.

And that's why they changed it to have a facing requirement, without it it was too strong in pvp.

[Onvious]

right now in PVP ; CS doing less dmg than SS, (we have 40% mastery in pvp template i guess) but it gives range option so it still useful for now, But probably CS will ahead in 110 level.

[reaper7]

DA is only better with Ring + Heroism on Sub-1 minute kills. The instant the fight lasts longer then a minute DA's usefulness drops ASTRONOMICALLY.

It's a speedkill cheesefest, not much else.

I can confirm this since day one they nerfed CS. SR is way better on actuall boss fights.But needs training to master it!

[Tellof]

I can confirm this since day one they nerfed CS. SR is way better on actuall boss fights.But needs training to master it!

This is the sort of thing I've enjoyed about the new Unholy. You have to plan ahead for certain things to optimize your performance like pooling runes for SR, Epidemic, D&D+SS, etc.

[VakeStorm]

This is the sort of thing I've enjoyed about the new Unholy. You have to plan ahead for certain things to optimize your performance like pooling runes for SR, Epidemic, D&D+SS, etc.

Unholy reminds me a lot of what you had to do with the old Enh Shaman that I played for years...

[Deleted]

This is the sort of thing I've enjoyed about the new Unholy. You have to plan ahead for certain things to optimize your performance like pooling runes for SR, Epidemic, D&D+SS, etc.

i keep trying to stack wounds on archi and big add just in time for the arrival of the adds. i fail. it is fun

[JaceDK]

I, summon unholy powers in the darkest of hours
Cuz the future generation is in the hands of ours
Irreverent to nerfs and still pulling off unholy numbers

Blowing your parses
Straight into ashes
Faster than a whore in need of rent
So I make Frost look good and I say, get bent

Now let me tell ya'll my secret
Cuz it ain't no source of regret
I once got kicked out of a brothel
So now I own a Discord channel.

[Deleted]

so which is better SS or CS? a simple answer please if you have tested it out

[Maxweii]

so which is better SS or CS? a simple answer please if you have tested it out

At 100, it's pretty much equal for me. At 110 it's hard to tell till more testing is done, that's about as definitive of an answer as you can get atm.

[Gr1mdark]

so which is better SS or CS? a simple answer please if you have tested it out

Same here for me...
Reading all this for days already and I just cant follow anymore...
Been using CS simply because I love to feel myself as some sort of necro in plates

[Deleted]

For leveling and 5man content CS will surely be better (better for AoE + ranged). Once raiding starts it has to be reevaluated anyways + it depends on you gear choices.