Ret Paladin 7.0.3 DPS comparison

[snackfeat]

Damn, a whole week? Cant have that!! Better be brokenly terrible for months!

So because they don't want to buff us to the point of being ridiculous during pre patch, you assume that nothing will be done for months at launch? I guess it's easy to find things to whine about when you see things this way.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

So because they don't want to buff us to the point of being ridiculous during pre patch, you assume that nothing will be done for months at launch? I guess it's easy to find things to whine about when you see things this way.

Its hard to imagine why a class/spec can't be something competitive as far as DPS goes, without certain spells and abilities. Its not as if things couldn't scale less and less as you unlock new spells and abilities and the artifact. Certainly seems lazy to me.

[Deleted]

guys don´t feed the trolls. He and dank most likely are special buddies and try to get on our nerves. Good old storm suggested I should get my salt levels checked and guess what they were to low! now that I´m salt sated I can relax and wait for the perfect time to tell them where to stick it.
But yeah I guess this was the tuning patch they talked about. It´s obvious that we will be the most thought after melee or else Blizzard would have surely taken steps already.
All is good all is fine *throws the next happy pill*

[Taeldorian]

I don't know.

This weeks seemed to be aimed at the pre-patch. So, there may be hope.

I was just re watching the interview and I didnt realize that they actually said they are still balancing shit. So, its not hope anymore I guess its factual. They said they will stop balancing the week before the first raid tier or the week of, so were definitely going to see something eventually.

[Crackalackin]

Why are you plebs expecting damage buffs? If we really are that far behind on dps in legion, they will hotfix us after the launch. It's stupid to believe that they would buff our damage now, as we are already really good dps wise in pre patch, so a buff would just make us brokenly OP for the rest of the pre patch for no reason.

"Really good" is 10th out of 11 classes...

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Serious, no joking...

Ret are or are not good on legion?

Considering there are multiple melee that bring better raid tools, better mobility, better numbers (as of this build) and stronger (more wanted) niches? Yes ret is in a poor state. There's also NINE classes that can be melee in Legion, only Monk and Paladin are melees with 1 dps spec. That means they're even more vulnerable because they lack flexibility, which all of the other melee classes have- which makes them not only a safer pick (if one spec sucks go to a different spec) but it also lets them have different niches. For example Arms Warrior have great AoE burst, however if you don't need that for a fight you can go fury which can in theory do higher ST dps. If Ret is bad for a fight what do you do? Bench, that's what you do. So then Raid Leaders ask themselves: "Who should we gear up and use in raids? The Ret that can do 8/10 encounters without being completely useless or the Rogue that can do 10/10 encounters and be good on most, if not all, encounters?"

Too many melee, Not having a niche damage area, Having among the weakest raid tools of all melee and numbers (at the current build) being in a bad spot means Ret is not a top pick and I honestly think Ret plays very boring/clunky/annoying as well. I won't even have my paladin at max level for a LONG time in Legion, it's not worth the time.

[OrcsRLame]

Considering there are multiple melee that bring better raid tools, better mobility, better numbers (as of this build) and stronger (more wanted) niches? Yes ret is in a poor state. There's also NINE classes that can be melee in Legion, only Monk and Paladin are melees with 1 dps spec. That means they're even more vulnerable because they lack flexibility, which all of the other melee classes have- which makes them not only a safer pick (if one spec sucks go to a different spec) but it also lets them have different niches. For example Arms Warrior have great AoE burst, however if you don't need that for a fight you can go fury which can in theory do higher ST dps. If Ret is bad for a fight what do you do? Bench, that's what you do. So then Raid Leaders ask themselves: "Who should we gear up and use in raids? The Ret that can do 8/10 encounters without being completely useless or the Rogue that can do 10/10 encounters and be good on most, if not all, encounters?"

Too many melee, Not having a niche damage area, Having among the weakest raid tools of all melee and numbers (at the current build) being in a bad spot means Ret is not a top pick and I honestly think Ret plays very boring/clunky/annoying as well. I won't even have my paladin at max level for a LONG time in Legion, it's not worth the time.

I'm still not convinced our numbers are bad. I swear I'm not just saying that to be a contrarian, I just don't fucking see it. With no empirical data to go off of, the only thing I have to judge by is my own experience on beta, and for that, well, I've mentioned it a few times now, but my numbers are fucking great on beta, at least relative to everyone I've played with. And that's both AoE and single target. Like, if I didn't go on forums and watch streams, to see the meme that ret has become, I would swear we're top 3 dps on both AoE and single target. In fact the only reason I question that is because literally everyone tells me that ret is shit. I swear it's like I'm living in a goddamn alternate reality.

And just so we're clear, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I know we have less than a week till launch, but if anyone wants to test out pve stuff on beta, Laurcus#1712, hit me up. Currently horde side but willing to go alliance.

[Neldarie]

but my numbers are fucking great on beta, at least relative to everyone I've played with.

That's the problem. Relativity is still being debated in science these days

[Taeldorian]

Considering there are multiple melee that bring better raid tools, better mobility, better numbers (as of this build) and stronger (more wanted) niches? Yes ret is in a poor state. There's also NINE classes that can be melee in Legion, only Monk and Paladin are melees with 1 dps spec. That means they're even more vulnerable because they lack flexibility, which all of the other melee classes have- which makes them not only a safer pick (if one spec sucks go to a different spec) but it also lets them have different niches. For example Arms Warrior have great AoE burst, however if you don't need that for a fight you can go fury which can in theory do higher ST dps. If Ret is bad for a fight what do you do? Bench, that's what you do. So then Raid Leaders ask themselves: "Who should we gear up and use in raids? The Ret that can do 8/10 encounters without being completely useless or the Rogue that can do 10/10 encounters and be good on most, if not all, encounters?"

Too many melee, Not having a niche damage area, Having among the weakest raid tools of all melee and numbers (at the current build) being in a bad spot means Ret is not a top pick and I honestly think Ret plays very boring/clunky/annoying as well. I won't even have my paladin at max level for a LONG time in Legion, it's not worth the time.

Okay. No melee bring raid tools. Id love if you could name one raid tool a fury warrior or arms warrior brings that anyone else in the game (ranged or heals} cant. Im assuming your talking about utility here, if not disregard what Im saying, but if you are, explain what utility melees bring because so far Im seeing absolutely none across all of the melee. Aside from ret obviously but our utility is too weak to be labeled utility along with the fact prot and holy which are doing very good atm bring the exact same utility ret does but even better (blessings isnt even worth debating}. Melee dont bring utility anymore, they only have numbers to offer and if they do bring utility its a really bad amount that healers and ranged dps can solve. Why take a feral druid when you can take a boomkin or a mage. Obviously melee are needed in raids, but they hardly offer any utility anymore. Most of the utility has shifted towards healers and any utility that melees can bring, if any, is most often terrible and not needed because healers and some ranged can bring a lot more.

Lets talk about mobility. Yeah, some melees are way more mobile than ret. Thats exactly what they want though, and its not like we got the short end of the stick. 2 charges of DS is plenty for me to get around most encounters, I was fine when raid testing with my guild in EN. In NH I had some issues on Spider, Eli and Trill but those are all heavy movement fights. DKs have even worse mobility than we do at this point. Wraith walk is pretty bad for pve considering they cant attack while using it (we can attack on DS} and it lasts for the same amount of time 1 DS lasts for. Its also less of a speed boost than DS is. Its a watered down, shittier version of DS. Honestly, the mobility issue isnt that big of a deal anymore. It can still be annoying on some fights in NH on mythic but three fights out of ten isnt bad at all.

Lets talk about numbers. Im glad you said as of this build because thats true. Right now, we need to be buffed in pve. Thats a given. Our numbers are a bit weaker than most melees atm. I believe our niche is suppose to be ST/cleave but Im still uncertain. They already said they are still balancing so we really dont know what the outcome of that is going to be. Obviously that doesnt mean stop submitting feedback and wait, it just means discussing numbers is a bit weird atm.

Im not trying to play devils advocate here, just some information that I want to share. I agree with too many melee, I really do. I dislike that we have so many melee in this game and only two have 1 dps spec. I think thats where they really need to put some effort in and thats what they should have done rather than redoing classes for the 9th time. Some classes needed it and some classes didnt. The ones that needed the revamp should have gotten it while the ones that needed a 2nd dps spec should have gotten it. Thats what I think anyway. I know Ret really didnt need that revamp.

Quick Disclaimer, this is coming from my pov which is as a holy paladin. I have played ret when other healers from our guild wanted to raid test but Ive primarily played Holy.

[OrcsRLame]

That's the problem. Relativity is still being debated in science these days

Of course, but, until sims are way more accurate and account for way more situations and gear levels, not just for ret but for all specs, we don't really have empirical data, so anecdotal data is all I have. *shrugs* I rape everything on single target, and I rape all but DH and fire mage on AoE. Sometimes warriors pull ahead of me too, but that seems more like burst AoE, as they start to fall off pretty quickly.

- - - Updated - - -

On the subject of melee utility, Commanding Shout, Darkness. You could probably also consider rogues having the best survivability in the game, bar none, to be some kind of utility lol. There's also AoE grips to think about, which are given by survival hunters, DKs and if I recall, DHs. WW monks give movement speed!

[Deleted]

Isn't Massgrip Blood-DK only?
Survival's Harpoon just draws the hunter to his enemy, so it's no grip.
Havoc doesn't have a Grip-effect either as far as I know. Don't know about Vengeance. If I remember correctly Blizzard gave such effects to tanks only, to prevent stacking/taking DD classes because they could grip everything. ^^

[Taeldorian]

@Laurcus

If you have a Blood Dk as your tank, no reason to bring any other DKs aside from numbers. I dont know if unholy or frost has Mass grip, I dont think so though. No reason to bring them aside from numbers. Edit- Mass grip is Blood only as pointed out by two other people.

Speed boosts are also given by Hpriests I believe, no reason to have a WW monk if you have an Hpriest aside from numbers. The speed boost is tigers lust, which is on the talent tier that offers WW really good mobility. I dont think they will pick that talent if its a movement heavy fight considering thats their mobility tier. Either way, it can only be used on one person and its on the monks mobility tier, so a sacrifice has to be made by the monk in order to even obtain meh utility.

Commanding shout is meh. Resto shaman artifact gives Hp to a lot of people as well as heals them. Edit-Its a much better version of commanding shout actually. It also has a 45 second CD compared to the 3m CD Command Shout has.CS might still see some use though but if you have an Rsham I doubt it. This is the only thing of utility that I could see being somewhat useful, but its still overshadowed by what a healer can bring. For example- Rsham artifact heals 6 people and increases their health by 10% every 45s while Commanding shout gives 15% health every 3 minutes. This is the last bit of utility I can think of for melee and its bad.

Harpoon is a gap closer for survival, like feral lunge is for enhancement. Not utility.

Havoc doesnt have mass grip as far as I can tell.

Everything mentioned here healers can provide in a much better way. Ranged and Tanks also bring either better versions of their dps specs utility or just more utility over all.

[marinos]

At least http://www.wowhead.com/spell=108199 is listed as blood only

[Deleted]

Okay. No melee bring raid tools. Id love if you could name one raid tool a fury warrior or arms warrior brings that anyone else in the game (ranged or heals} cant.

Commanding shout.

[Taeldorian]

Commanding shout.

Gonna refer you to my post above.

[Keiyra]

For Raiding:
Demon Hunter Darkness def cd. Even if the tank spec has it (which I don't know if they do) as a tank they will often not be in a position to drop it on a group since it drops at your feat.
There's also ret pally greater blessings which are unique.
WW passive speed aura is another (i would not classify this the same as single target speed boost, nor the aoe speed boost of roar/totem)

- that's pretty much the only melee raid utility i can think of that isn't brought by a tank or heal or ranged dps

[Taeldorian]

For Raiding:
Demon Hunter Darkness def cd. Even if the tank spec has it (which I don't know if they do) as a tank they will often not be in a position to drop it on a group since it drops at your feat.
There's also ret pally greater blessings which are unique.
WW passive speed aura is another (i would not classify this the same as single target speed boost, nor the aoe speed boost of roar/totem)

- that's pretty much the only melee raid utility i can think of that isn't brought by a tank or heal or ranged dps

Okay now that's good. Not trying to say whose right or wrong, I'm seriously looking around for good utility anywhere that melee can bring.

WW has a passive speed boost? That's pretty good although I don't know what it does in terms of how much speed/how often. Sounds decent though as long as it's not a talent. Edit- Okay, it's anyone within 10 yards. That's kind of meh because at times that will basically apply only to melee and sometimes not even all of the melee. It's a 10% increase so that's okay, but 10 yards is kinda meh. Still, not bad utility.

Ret pally greater blessings are utility, but keep in mind I'm looking around for good utility. The only decent blessing is might. Other two are trash. Might still isn't even great. It's okay, but because numbers are such a big deal for melee now (that's why I'm saying melee really only bring numbers) ret won't be brought just because of might. If they don't pull good numbers they won't be brought. Same goes for DKs and really any class without anything to offer aside from numbers.

Can't speak about the DH def CD because I have no idea if it's a talent, what it does, if it's even decent, etc. I'll check it out though and edit this when I see it.

As for the shaman totem, no enhancement shaman will ever choose that over Feral Lunge, ever. That totem will hardly ever see the light of day honestly. Feral lunge is a big part of enh shaman mobility.

____________________________________________________

Just to make things clear: My main argument is that melee will be looked at mainly for the damage they bring and on how many encounters that damage will be valuable. This is because almost every melee lacks utility, and mainly healers and tanks bring a really good amount of utility so anything (like commanding shout) gets factored out. Meanwhile, in the past, enh shamans may have been brought due to cleave and their totem utility rather than just cleave which is how it is now.

For example: "Let's bring a fury warrior as our last melee." "Why do that, what do they bring" "Commanding shout and good aoe/cleave" "We have a Resto shaman, with a better version of commanding shout useable every 45s, why wouldn't we bring a Feral Druid who brings good cleave/aoe and high ST?" Just using this as a hypothetical statement but that's what I've seen for mythic guild recruitment so far and in the past when melee had utility it was pretty different.

Why am I talking about this? To show that Ret isn't the only melee with shit utility (some even have no utility at all), and we aren't the only spec that has our utility ruled out due to the same class coming in the form of a tank or healer. If we get our numbers tuned and we bring good damage to the raid, there's no reason why we wouldn't be chosen over an unholy DK/frost DK or fury war/arms war aside from them being able to change to another dps spec.

[OrcsRLame]

It's good to know that mass grip isn't brought by dps DKs. Anywho, @Taeldorian, I think you're looking at stuff like Commanding Shout the wrong way. Sure, healers bring better raid CDs. That doesn't make Commanding Shout bad though, and it's not really a choice between a resto shaman and a melee, it's a choice between a melee and a melee. No raid leader would ever turn their nose up at having more raid CDs.

I do think greater blessings are a bit stronger than people give them credit for though. Full disclaimer, I haven't looked at Nighthold yet for the most part, so imma just use WoD raids as an example. Might allows us to front load more dps onto people that are performing niche tasks. For example, any time the raid splits up with a small group going into a very critical phase, might is a way to bring an extra ~1/10th of a player into those phases. Think balconies on Blackhand if you were just barely not able to kill everything up there. Any time that 2-3 people get to do increased damage, like on Kilrogg, might has extra value for what should be obvious reasons. It's not a lot, but small optimizations like that matter during progress.

Kings is something that seems bad now, but I could see it getting quite strong. First off, it scales with AP, and it's absorption based healing. Absorbs tend to get out of hand very quickly, especially absorbs on tanks. Any time you're adding to a tank's self healing, you're bringing that tank just a little bit closer to being immortal, that is, not needing a healer. From what I've seen, kings ends up being about ~6% of a tank's healing, depending on the tank of course. I think with something like kings we really gotta think of things from the tank's pov. How many times have you seen a tank's self healing get nerfed by ~5% and seen their class forums blow up with protests? A ~20% increase to prot paladin's overall self healing made us go from being considered by most people to be the worst tank, to being borderline OP. So let's say kings is ~3-8% healing depending on the tank. You'll still probably go with might in most situations, but if tank death is one of the main things keeping you from progressing on a fight, kings could be that little push that you need.

I think wisdom is more or less useless in its current incarnation.

[Taeldorian]

@Laurcus I think we're agreeing here, just in a different way.

A raid leader would gladly turn away a fury warrior with commanding shout who only does good Aoe/cleave for a feral Druid who offers no utility and brings good cleave/aoe and ST. That's hypothetical, using feral and fury as examples. But, this is my main argument and my main issue as well when other people talk about Ret Vs other melee.

If one melee does better on 9/10 fights while you do better on 7/10 fights, a raid leader will bring the melee that does better on 9/10 fights regardless of utility. At least for progression. Would you take the fury who does good on 7/10 fights and brings CS? Or the Feral Druid whose good on 9/10 fights and brings no utility? I'd go with the latter for progression.

That brings me to my main point: IF ret gets the buffs it needs in order to perform well, there is no reason ret won't be chosen over other melee. We also do bring utility (BoP, blessings) so if we get the numbers we need we will be taken. That's the only push Ret really needs (disregarding the rotation as that's subjective).

As for blessings, yeah, I can agree there. I'm not really sure how the scaling with kings is going to be though honestly. If it gets too out of hand it'll get a nerf. I really can't tell how it's going to be though. It could end up being good in the future, sure, and that would be fantastic, but that might be in the future during NH when most guilds have their raid team set.

[Miamivice]

It might just me being optimistic and wanting to hold onto my favorite class, but I honestly believe we are going to be fine by the 21st. I am having a hard time deciding what to main right now though. Unholy DK and Enhancement Shaman both are looking like they are in a good place and I like the way they play. Despite this I still think I am going to pick ret.