What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Mehrunes]

The same can be said of Sylvanas and Stillwater. Isn't that her excuse? Both Jaina and Slyvanas are whiny emo cunts.

As Friendly said, Stillwater was covering his tracks and in the end Lydon was still sent to Hillsbrad. On the other hand, trying to justify Jaina in the war as not doing anything towards the Horde prior to Theramore because of her perspective and her timeline is only (barely) explainable through total lack of awareness about her troops, which would include not sending anything because she'd need to be also oblivious to the need of checking things even existing.

[KyrtF]

You think the factions would have won if the horde stayed?

Everyone would have died and nothing would have changed

Nothing would have changed because Blizzard needed the Legion to win this one. Not much point kicking them off the planet in the opening scenario.

But the definite impression given by the cinematics is that the Azerothians were still in the game. Varian needed Horde archers to clear the sky and Sylvanas needed to order her troops to hold their ground and protect their archers allowing them to dot heir job.

Whether or not this would have achieved victory or not is besides the point...the cinematics show the Horde broke and ran to save their own skin. They left the Alliance to die. The argument that they very likely would have died is also beside the point because achieving victory would have been worth it. From a purely player bound point of view...the Horde ran. They Horde broke. The Horde were cowards. The Horde abandoned a hard fight and left their allies to die.

And I hated every moment of that feeling. It wasn't even a particularly epic cinematic from the Horde point of view - Vol'jin gets wounded, tells Sylvans to save the Horde, she looks around and sees a few demons and orders a retreat. In the Alliance cinematic we see the Alliance get attacked, but they are relying on Horde archers to clear the skies for them...but yet there is a definite sense that if that were done, victory was within their grasp

But the Horde ran. The skies weren't cleared. The Alliance was forced to retreat because without the Horde, they couldn't win. With the Horde - they felt there was still at least the possibility and they were still willing to fight.

In short - the Horde broke while the fight could still have been won. The Horde ran when victory could still have been achieved. That victory might have cost them dearly. It might have cost both armies. But it would have been a victory. And it would have been worth it.

I still would have preferred the Alliance to have broken first. Or at least changes to the cinematic script to make it crystal clear that that victory was 100% beyond their grasp.

But as it is shown...as it is written...the Horde broke to save their own skins. And what's worse, is that the Alliances condemnation is justified this time!!!!

[Zulkhan]

And I hated every moment of that feeling. It wasn't even a particularly epic cinematic from the Horde point of view - Vol'jin gets wounded, tells Sylvans to save the Horde, she looks around and sees a few demons and orders a retreat.

Are you serious? The Horde dealt with way more demons than the Alliance, included some very big ones and even freaking Legion ships shooting fel beams against them.

It doesn't matter if the Alliance believed to win if they had Horde support, the Horde itself was alone in its own bigger mess and they had no choice but retreat. Why is the Horde cowardly for retreating yet it's ok if the Alliance did the same exact thing the moment they felt the need to do that?

[Friendlyimmolation]

In short - the Horde broke while the fight could still have been won

But that 's wrong, because there was never a chance to win.

But as it is shown...as it is written...the Horde broke to save their own skins. And what's worse, is that the Alliances condemnation is justified this time!!!!

"how dare the Horde run away when there was no chance to win"


Just because Varian yelled "victory is ours" doesn't give him magic powers to decide a battle. The Horde would have been stomped, and so would of the Alliance. Even if the sky was clear, it wouldn't have mattered. The fel reaver would have still came down, every legion general there was still alive. Willingness to fight means jack shit because there never was a chance to win, the rogue campaign makes that clear.

[Tripzzz]

Stillwater was killing or kidnapping forsaken so word coudlnt get out., Jaina just doesn't understand that Neutral doesnt mean what she thinks it means

As Friendly said, Stillwater was covering his tracks and in the end Lydon was still sent to Hillsbrad. On the other hand, trying to justify Jaina in the war as not doing anything towards the Horde prior to Theramore because of her perspective and her timeline is only (barely) explainable through total lack of awareness about her troops, which would include not sending anything because she'd need to be also oblivious to the need of checking things even existing.

There is no actual proof that Jaina didn't know what her troops were doing, only speculations. On the other hand, there are two actual instances where Sylvanas didn't know what her troops where doing. Putress and Stillwater both did shit right under Sylvanas' nose and she was completely ignorant of her own high ranking forsaken.

[Kallisto]

But that 's wrong, because there was never a chance to win.




"how dare the Horde run away when there was no chance to win"


Just because Varian yelled "victory is ours" doesn't give him magic powers to decide a battle. The Horde would have been stomped, and so would of the Alliance. Even if the sky was clear, it wouldn't have mattered. The fel reaver would have still came down, every legion general there was still alive. Willingness to fight means jack shit because there never was a chance to win, the rogue campaign makes that clear.

Not only that but week 2 of the story arc pretty much says the pillars are needed for victory. Every player should know right now how victory was impossible.

[Braven]

I don't know all of the lore but I clearly remember how she was ok with helping the horde against her father and ultimately being the reason why her father died. I always liked her and her views on everything and I thought she would be the first person on Alliance side who would try and figure out what happened and why horde abandoned them.

Instead she acted all hissy-pissy like, saying that she now hates the horde and wants revenge. I really didn't get that part. I expected a lot more from her.

Mists of Pandaria happened. Her city was destroyed by a Horde bomb. You see her attitude in the final MoP cinematic featuring Garrosh's defeat. It's not new.

[glowpipe]

She gonna end up as a corrupted boss in legion anyways. Sargeras adviser or some crap like that.

[DarthMonk79]

they couldnt beat a few named bosses and instead thought talking guldan to death would work. they are Alliance what can you expect from them?

Horde sounded the Retreat to everyone, so of course the Alliance, who stood there doing nothing at all, try to pretend like they we're totes so close to beating them if only the horde wasnt cowards!!!

they need any excuse to justify their complete Uselessness at the Broken Shore.

Well lets see... all the named demons/demonlords were on the alliance grounds of the fight. We also were more inland whereas the horde had beach access closer to their location. We called in the gunship(which probably should have been called in earlier), as that was the alliance escape route. Sorry we don't have Valkaries on our side and a quick path to a ship. But no your Warchief took one blow to the abdomen and went down. Green Jesus is on the ground begging for help and somehow a massive Tauren Chieftain does jack shit through the fight other than spew some words and pick up green jesus. Our leader got his back slashed, stabbed twice, while before taking down a massive fel reaver and still spit in the face of a OP warlock before getting burned from the inside out. SO please in terms of who fought better there, its the Alliance.

[Deleted]

Nothing would have changed because Blizzard needed the Legion to win this one. Not much point kicking them off the planet in the opening scenario.

But the definite impression given by the cinematics is that the Azerothians were still in the game. Varian needed Horde archers to clear the sky and Sylvanas needed to order her troops to hold their ground and protect their archers allowing them to dot heir job.

Whether or not this would have achieved victory or not is besides the point...the cinematics show the Horde broke and ran to save their own skin. They left the Alliance to die. The argument that they very likely would have died is also beside the point because achieving victory would have been worth it. From a purely player bound point of view...the Horde ran. They Horde broke. The Horde were cowards. The Horde abandoned a hard fight and left their allies to die.

And I hated every moment of that feeling. It wasn't even a particularly epic cinematic from the Horde point of view - Vol'jin gets wounded, tells Sylvans to save the Horde, she looks around and sees a few demons and orders a retreat. In the Alliance cinematic we see the Alliance get attacked, but they are relying on Horde archers to clear the skies for them...but yet there is a definite sense that if that were done, victory was within their grasp

But the Horde ran. The skies weren't cleared. The Alliance was forced to retreat because without the Horde, they couldn't win. With the Horde - they felt there was still at least the possibility and they were still willing to fight.

In short - the Horde broke while the fight could still have been won. The Horde ran when victory could still have been achieved. That victory might have cost them dearly. It might have cost both armies. But it would have been a victory. And it would have been worth it.

I still would have preferred the Alliance to have broken first. Or at least changes to the cinematic script to make it crystal clear that that victory was 100% beyond their grasp.

But as it is shown...as it is written...the Horde broke to save their own skins. And what's worse, is that the Alliances condemnation is justified this time!!!!

It is not bravery to die with the knowledge that when you die, the other group will be overrun as well. What good would that do? Vol'jin gave the only sensible order in this situation, and Sylvanas executed this order. It was a trap, not a battle that could be won. You and all NPCs on the Horde side get to realise this in the middle of the scenario - but you still fight on, until the losses mount up and you have only the certainty of doom.

To hell with this "victory or death" bullshit. We need to follow the "art of war" rules to win against the Legion. We need to control the battlefield to achieve victory, but this battlefield was totally controlled by the Legion.

Anyway, it's ultimately the fault of the Alliance. Their bad intelligence, their stupid Jaina missing from the finale (who could have probably saved Varian with a teleport after he kills the gigantic infernal).

Besides that - I am sure that the Alliance would have run as well if the sides were reversed. If Varian would have received a mortal wound instead of Vol'jin. If you pretend otherwise, you are delusional.

- - - Updated - - -

Well lets see... all the named demons/demonlords were on the alliance grounds of the fight. We also were more inland whereas the horde had beach access closer to their location. We called in the gunship(which probably should have been called in earlier), as that was the alliance escape route. Sorry we don't have Valkaries on our side and a quick path to a ship. But no your Warchief took one blow to the abdomen and went down. Green Jesus is on the ground begging for help and somehow a massive Tauren Chieftain does jack shit through the fight other than spew some words and pick up green jesus. Our leader got his back slashed, stabbed twice, while before taking down a massive fel reaver and still spit in the face of a OP warlock before getting burned from the inside out. SO please in terms of who fought better there, its the Alliance.

How would you feel if you would be hit by a spaceship cannon? If there would be anything left of you, that is.

- - - Updated - - -

She gonna end up as a corrupted boss in legion anyways. Sargeras adviser or some crap like that.

Unfortunately, this is the path I see for her as well. Instead of a Lich King, we will have a Fel Queen.

[frozenkex]

Unfortunately, this is the path I see for her as well. Instead of a Lich King, we will have a Fel Queen.

This would go in to my "Blizzard's shitty writing strikes again" book. Flip floping all over the place, just making things up as they go and keeping it super simple with little depth below the surface.

[Mehrunes]

Are you serious? The Horde dealt with way more demons than the Alliance, included some very big ones and even freaking Legion ships shooting fel beams against them.

By the way, since I haven't seen it mentioned in lore forum earlier, I discovered something about dying in Broken Shore. First I discovered it on my Ally char. When you run directly to Gul'dan you just drop dead. But it has no explanation. So I checked on another Horde char if there is something like that there too. After all the named mobs were untargetable and were decoration only. So you instantly die when you get too close to the portal as well. But on Horde side, you get a yellow text in the middle of the screen saying that you feel a staggering presence on the other side of the portal touching you for a moment. So whatever it was, was pretty powerful. And the Horde already got the leaders of the invasions and red Archimonde (who by the way I think summons the space ships, when he arrives from the portal he turns away from the raid and channels something into the sky, shortly after he's done the spaceships arrive).

There is no actual proof that Jaina didn't know what her troops were doing, only speculations. On the other hand, there are two actual instances where Sylvanas didn't know what her troops where doing. Putress and Stillwater both did shit right under Sylvanas' nose and she was completely ignorant of her own high ranking forsaken.

I wasn't arguing in favor of Jaina not knowing that though. I said it's the only explanation in case of baskev's "welp, Jaina knew nothing and did nothing wrong to the Horde from her perspective" that I argued against.

[baskev]

Your definition of trolling gets more and more laughable the longer you continue your shit show. And I haven't forced you to respond at all. I just responded to you, because that's my prerogative as a user of this forum. Does not mean I awaited your response. Just the opposite, you not responding means you'll stop polluting the lore forum. Also, not on subject anymore? Riveting tale, because I responded to points contained in your post without mentioning any new ones. So either you were not on subject in the first place or you still are full of shit.




If they left that makes them not Horde anymore. That's what leaving does.




You only raised Wrathgate as a counterargument to his actions in there




Because the concept of context is lost on you, which we've established 5 posts ago.




Look at all the times I said so. Whole zero of them.

My definition??? Its like most dictionary site's version of the internet word troll(ing). But they must be wrong.
Not forced me to response. I stepped out of this conversation. And you keep dissecting it and responding the way you do. Lol polluting. So now i am polluting. And again not going into you rants.
Have a lovely wrathgate. Mr i am not a troll but i act like one, and i like to aggressively respond to people. And before you say anything else. Post this post like you do to anyone else. Lets see how they respond. Have fun dude. And no...your still not right...that is the fun part of opinions .

- - - Updated - - -

I've done that quest a few times.
What part of it do I need to pay attention to? She starts ranting and everyone basically ignores her.

https://youtu.be/e-iUcwnxb9E?t=1m18s

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, since I haven't seen it mentioned in lore forum earlier, I discovered something about dying in Broken Shore. First I discovered it on my Ally char. When you run directly to Gul'dan you just drop dead. But it has no explanation. So I checked on another Horde char if there is something like that there too. After all the named mobs were untargetable and were decoration only. So you instantly die when you get too close to the portal as well. But on Horde side, you get a yellow text in the middle of the screen saying that you feel a staggering presence on the other side of the portal touching you for a moment. So whatever it was, was pretty powerful. And the Horde already got the leaders of the invasions and red Archimonde (who by the way I think summons the space ships, when he arrives from the portal he turns away from the raid and channels something into the sky, shortly after he's done the spaceships arrive).




I wasn't arguing in favor of Jaina not knowing that though. I said it's the only explanation in case of baskev's "welp, Jaina knew nothing and did nothing wrong to the Horde from her perspective" that I argued against.

Last part i never said. But thank you for this. Mr i never made stuff up you just proven yourself a liar tytytytyty

[baskev]

Not right about her facts. About what happend 2 her. 2 different things.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, what is that proving?
Khadgar tells Jaina he knows about her pain and then Jaina's rant gets ignored by everyone.
How is that showing that she was right?

Apples and bricks mate. Apples and bricks.

[Tripzzz]

I wasn't arguing in favor of Jaina not knowing that though. I said it's the only explanation in case of baskev's "welp, Jaina knew nothing and did nothing wrong to the Horde from her perspective" that I argued against.

I know, but you said

If she doesn't know what her troops were doing during the Cataclysm she's the worst leader in Warcraft history.

Jaina is retarded but for completely different reasons. Sylvanas is "the worst leader in Warcraft history" according to you since she didn't know what her troops were doing, twice.

[Magnagarde]

Her attitude is a result of everything that had happened to her ever since Warcraft III.

It takes a tiny problem or in this case, a misunderstanding, to mistrust and hate someone you mistrusted in the past due to their actions. It is no wonder she hates the Horde as much as she does because not only has it inflicted pain and suffering upon her character, but it also made her efforts of lasting peace between the Horde and the Alliance seem useless and her purpose meaningless. All the Horde had done her has repurposed her from a shy diplomatic girl that seeks knowledge and peace into a woman seeking revenge.

[DoctorDoomkin]

During the Cataclysm expansion, Garrosh had to make some big decisions based on what the Night Elves and Alliance forces were doing to him.

Orgrimmar got burned to the ground when Deathwing came by and picked up one of the bodies of his kids. He needed lumber. So he asked the Night elves and said, "Hey! Gimme your wood!". The night elves were all like, "Sorry. No homo." Garrosh didn't like that. So he took Ashenvale and burned the Night elf town to the ground.

Then he got the Alliance trying to make property claim on the Southern Barrens, all thanks to Theramore being used as a port to get there. So, he had the genius idea of going to Coldarra, take a mana bomb from the Blue Dragonflight, and nuked Theramore with Jaina still inside.

She didn't like that.

Since then, she kinda hated the Horde for it, even though it was Garrosh who made it happen.

[Combatbutler]

Since then, she kinda hated the Horde for it, even though it was Garrosh who made it happen.

The rest of the Horde went along with it though, they only stopped once they believed he had crossed a line and that still took quite some time.

[Deleted]

Really getting tired of these threads... People keep bringing up Theramore while conveniently forgetting about the same town housing Alliance soldiers that raided Horde territory, there goes the neutrality... at that moment Jaina not only sealed the fate of Theramore but also her own.

She tried so hard to maintain neutrality while she was being best buds with the Alliance. The Horde doesn't have to justify ANYTHING here, The Horde and the Alliance were at war and Jaina decided to assist the Alliance, thus becoming the enemy of the Horde, end of story, stop bringing that stupid "They nuked her home" here because it's been overdone and it's justified, and if someone mentions civilians : Collateral Damage, if anyone is to blame for their deaths, it's the one that decided to open it's gate to Alliance soldiers.

Jaina should have thought twice about helping the Alliance.