Momentum vs Nemesis

[Schizoide]

Demon Blades and Prepared aren't enough damage to be essentially mandatory, though, so I didn't include those tiers in my list.

@Gradingus: I would absolutely take Felblade for leveling and solo play, yes.

[Lucrece]

I am completely with you on this one. I love the movement and the fact that you aren't mind numbingly doing a rotation in one spot.

In terms of prepared vs Dblades, last I saw (and my sims from this morning) show them extremely close. It will be complete preference imo. I just can't stand the Dblades playstyle on sitting around waiting while auto attacking so I will stick to prepared. But some people like it and it's close enough to justify both.

I'm OK with fel rush in the rotation.

I'm not OK with a playstyle that used camera turn on vengeful retreat into a mob hitbox just to maximize momentum uptime. I'd rather they remove vengeful retreat from momentum and increase its duration to compensate. Change Prepared to something else.

[Gratlim]

It's kinda sad how Momentum and Nemesis both seem so important, while Fel Eruption is basically just a trap at this point

I bet it looks cool, too

Fel Eruption is the PvP talent. And a pretty good one at that. Giving Havoc 2 stuns.

Back on topic i will go for Nemesis. Not digging the Momentum playstyle. I will also be on the safe side as when something will get nerfed, it will be Momentum.

[Deleted]

I'm OK with fel rush in the rotation.

I'm not OK with a playstyle that used camera turn on vengeful retreat into a mob hitbox just to maximize momentum uptime. I'd rather they remove vengeful retreat from momentum and increase its duration to compensate. Change Prepared to something else.

Maybe you should play the other 10 melee specs that sit still hitting the boss then, just a thought.

[Akachan]

I'm OK with fel rush in the rotation.

I'm not OK with a playstyle that used camera turn on vengeful retreat into a mob hitbox just to maximize momentum uptime. I'd rather they remove vengeful retreat from momentum and increase its duration to compensate. Change Prepared to something else.

Not a fan of turning my camera to vengeful retreat through the hitbox either. Seems unnecessarily cumbersome.

[The Archmage]

Fel Eruption is the PvP talent. And a pretty good one at that. Giving Havoc 2 stuns.

Back on topic i will go for Nemesis. Not digging the Momentum playstyle. I will also be on the safe side as when something will get nerfed, it will be Momentum.

I am with you on this one. I don't think Momentum will stick around too much. I see the majority of people disliking it (though i AM NOT saying that it's right to dislike it) and its eventual removal, maybe it will stick for this expansion but i don't think it will survive more than that. It's a playstyle that benefits too much from any form of animation canceling / limiting and LeCraft himself already expressed its doubts on that regard, since it's very difficult to prevent it ALL (expecially exploiting obstacles, back to a wall, ecc...).

It also feels a little too susbtantial for a buff, making me feel even more gimped (although this is entirely subjective) during fury building, which pre legendary ring is still an important part of the class's activity.

[Ribesal]

Not a fan of turning my camera to vengeful retreat through the hitbox either. Seems unnecessarily cumbersome.

May depend on build, but that's not really neccessary.
Initiate the jump(isn't on GCD), throw fury of the illidari or use another attack while flying away, then move back in while using fel barrage/throw glaive. The difference in DPS should be very very low
This works at least for dungeons, i'm not sure if we will use fel barrage in raids

Or run straight through the boss before using VR, if possible

[Deleted]

Yes i completely agree, remove the only talent that adds some game play, so we can instead just press a button every 35s, considering how demanding WoW rotations have gotten these days i think it's the best for the WoW community.

[cRawmode]

I don't understand the hate against momentum. It works and is something different from other classes. If you want Momentum gone you simply want Demon Hunter to be just like any other class that sits behind the boss doing it's rotation. I strongly am against something like this. We repeat each other here I guess. If you really hate how DH plays, play something else. No one forces you to play Demon Hunter because it has Glaives as Weapons and looks cool if you do not enjoy playing it.

[Akachan]

Who are you to dictate how a DH should be played? Isn't that why we have talents, so people can pick whatever the fuck they want? Some people don't like prepared and prefer demon blades. Some dislike momentum and prefer nemesis instead. What exactly is the problem with that? It's not like momentum is going anywhere if someone else likes nemesis.

[Gradingus]

@Gradingus: I would absolutely take Felblade for leveling and solo play, yes.

Cool, that's good to know. Guess my brain ain't as dumb as I thought ;p

Fel Eruption is the PvP talent. And a pretty good one at that. Giving Havoc 2 stuns.

Oh yeah, that does make sense, actually.

Who are you to dictate how a DH should be played? Isn't that why we have talents, so people can pick whatever the fuck they want? Some people don't like prepared and prefer demon blades. Some dislike momentum and prefer nemesis instead. What exactly is the problem with that? It's not like momentum is going anywhere if someone else likes nemesis.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell others what to do. Some people just want to know what's *the* best choice, and adapt to that. It's a common thing.

[Delekii]

I don't understand the hate against momentum. It works and is something different from other classes. If you want Momentum gone you simply want Demon Hunter to be just like any other class that sits behind the boss doing it's rotation. I strongly am against something like this. We repeat each other here I guess. If you really hate how DH plays, play something else. No one forces you to play Demon Hunter because it has Glaives as Weapons and looks cool if you do not enjoy playing it.

It's not reasonable that the highest performing spec (that is high enough to render the other choices bad) requires this sort of "difference" in gameplay. Very few people are saying momentum shouldn't be a thing; most are saying it shouldn't be the ONLY thing. It is, after all, one talent out of three. It is not a core mechanic of demon hunters, it is an option.

On any target with a hitbox of non-boss size, momentum is an incredibly uncomfortable and awkward mechanic.

Let's put it another way; if demon blades was unequivocally the best choice would you sit there and say to people "shut up and take it, if you don't want to play demon hunter play something else!"?

Congrats that your preferred choice is currently the best choice, but don't pretend that it is any more valid or intrinsic to the class than any other.

[Vanyali]

It's not reasonable that the highest performing spec (that is high enough to render the other choices bad) requires this sort of "difference" in gameplay. Very few people are saying momentum shouldn't be a thing; most are saying it shouldn't be the ONLY thing. It is, after all, one talent out of three. It is not a core mechanic of demon hunters, it is an option.

On any target with a hitbox of non-boss size, momentum is an incredibly uncomfortable and awkward mechanic.

Let's put it another way; if demon blades was unequivocally the best choice would you sit there and say to people "shut up and take it, if you don't want to play demon hunter play something else!"?

Congrats that your preferred choice is currently the best choice, but don't pretend that it is any more valid or intrinsic to the class than any other.

You're asking for something that doesn't exist in blizz class design because you don't like the way havoc is played.

Even without momentum you're going to be rushing around.

It's like saying a Pyro build shouldn't be required to play fire.

[Delekii]

You're asking for something that doesn't exist in blizz class design because you don't like the way havoc is played.

Even without momentum you're going to be rushing around.

It's like saying a Pyro build shouldn't be required to play fire.

Sure, bud. So, if we're going to be rushing around anyway, we can just delete momentum, because it has no impact on the gameplay? Thus; everyone is happy! Great! Glad we got that sorted.

It's ok, I don't really need to worry. When the army of demon hunters that isn't in the beta reaches 110 and starts complaining, momentum won't stay top dog for all that long.

[Deleted]

Sure, bud. So, if we're going to be rushing around anyway, we can just delete momentum, because it has no impact on the gameplay? Thus; everyone is happy! Great! Glad we got that sorted.

It's ok, I don't really need to worry. When the army of demon hunters that isn't in the beta reaches 110 and starts complaining, momentum won't stay top dog for all that long.

You do realize that without momentum you'll still be using Fel Rush on cooldown? I'm guessing your problem is not with momentum but with Fel Mastery/Fel Rush...

[Vanyali]

Sure, bud. So, if we're going to be rushing around anyway, we can just delete momentum, because it has no impact on the gameplay? Thus; everyone is happy! Great! Glad we got that sorted.

It's ok, I don't really need to worry. When the army of demon hunters that isn't in the beta reaches 110 and starts complaining, momentum won't stay top dog for all that long.

I actually didn't say anything about momentum.

I said that movement is a core part of DH. If you don't like that, regardless of momentum, you're not liking one of the core aspects of the class. Whether or not you play it anyway is completely up to you, but it's like bitching you want to play feral but hate dots and cats.

[Delekii]

You do realize that without momentum you'll still be using Fel Rush on cooldown? I'm guessing your problem is not with momentum but with Fel Mastery/Fel Rush...

Except not vengeful retreat, and not time-sensitively since we have two charges, and not to the extent of dps loss if we need to save for mobility. So.. on cooldown, only not remotely the same.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually didn't say anything about momentum.

I said that movement is a core part of DH. If you don't like that, regardless of momentum, you're not liking one of the core aspects of the class. Whether or not you play it anyway is completely up to you, but it's like bitching you want to play feral but hate dots and cats.

Who's bitching about movement? You replied to me, when I was specifically talking about momentum.

Bitching at people about things they aren't talking about is like bitching at someone who doesn't like dots when they said they didn't like spells.

[Vanyali]

Who's bitching about movement? You replied to me, when I was specifically talking about momentum.

Bitching at people about things they aren't talking about is like bitching at someone who doesn't like dots when they said they didn't like spells.

The conversation stemmed from using VR (which.. you still do with Prep, which doesn't require momentum ) and camera turning (which.. you still have to do with FR ).

So either your'e being dishonest as hell and trying to say "haha i only mind movement when it's momentum" or you've no idea how the class plays, and are thus jumping on the bitch train of "MOMENTUM SUX" without playing it.

Like it or not, the momentum "playstyle", without momentum being taken, is a core partof Havoc. You WILL be rushing around. You WILL be using Fel Rush for damage. You WILL likely be using VR if you're doing any serious raiding. Not liking to use those things isn't a momentum problem, and wouldn't change if FE changed to be AoE and hit everything for 1.5 mil damage each - you'd still be fel rushing and vengeful retreating for damage.

[Delekii]

The conversation stemmed from using VR (which.. you still do with Prep, which doesn't require momentum ) and camera turning (which.. you still have to do with FR ).

So either your'e being dishonest as hell and trying to say "haha i only mind movement when it's momentum" or you've no idea how the class plays, and are thus jumping on the bitch train of "MOMENTUM SUX" without playing it.

Like it or not, the momentum "playstyle", without momentum being taken, is a core partof Havoc. You WILL be rushing around. You WILL be using Fel Rush for damage. You WILL likely be using VR if you're doing any serious raiding. Not liking to use those things isn't a momentum problem, and wouldn't change if FE changed to be AoE and hit everything for 1.5 mil damage each - you'd still be fel rushing and vengeful retreating for damage.

Right.. except that as I literally just said in the post that you quoted, the timing of those abilities is not remotely as tight without momentum as with it. You can rush any time up to the point where your second charge is about to come off cooldown without potential loss, and while the loss from not VRing on cooldown is there, it isn't nearly as bad as with momentum.

As a result of these two things, you can work movement into your rotation rather than working your rotation into movement. The difference in gameplay is monumental. It means you can save movement to avoid mechanics that are upcoming without dps loss. It means you can rush twice in a row if needed, without dps loss. It means that if you have to hold movement abilities for movement, you lose the damage input of one talent rather than two for that period of time.

I don't really give a fuck about your false dichotomy, neither option is the case. Here's one for you: If it is the case that the gameplay is unchanged by momentum's existence, there is no logical reason to persist with it's existence, and it is purely a flat dps buff (something that doesn't exist anywhere else in the talent system of WoW currently). So, either momentum doesn't change havoc gameplay and it is a failure of a (dps-oriented) talent, or it does and your argument is void. Which is it?

If the gameplay style of havoc is unchanged by the talent, as you said: "Like it or not, the momentum "playstyle", without momentum being taken, is a core partof Havoc." then the talent could equally say "You do x% more damage", and would have the same effect on havoc gameplay.

If this is not the case, then your quote is false.

[Vanyali]

Right.. except that as I literally just said in the post that you quoted, the timing of those abilities is not remotely as tight without momentum as with it. You can rush any time up to the point where your second charge is about to come off cooldown without potential loss, and while the loss from not VRing on cooldown is there, it isn't nearly as bad as with momentum.

As a result of these two things, you can work movement into your rotation rather than working your rotation into movement. The difference in gameplay is monumental. It means you can save movement to avoid mechanics that are upcoming without dps loss. It means you can rush twice in a row if needed, without dps loss. It means that if you have to hold movement abilities for movement, you lose the damage input of one talent rather than two for that period of time.

I don't really give a fuck about your false dichotomy, neither option is the case.

Except it's really really not, because if you're holding them you're losing a massive damage loss. Just from FR damage alone. Guess what you do for momentum? Use FR before it caps, or when a bunch of AoE is coming up if you don't have the buff. You can spam it back to back when necessary, but generally won't. Guess what you do for nemesis? Use FR before it caps, or when a bunch of AoE is coming up.

The playstyle is exactly the same. That's the point I, and others, keep trying to make in these threads: if you're bitching about momentum movement you're literally saying you hate the same thing you're praising for being "not momentum" when it comes to movement. It's just part of what Havoc does.