will MM be the best spec at 110?

[Azortharion]

The ones that give the highest iLvl. If they are the same iLvl, I will say Windrunner's Guidance while Effinhunter will say Precision. Pick your poison.

[tyrindor]

Except the difference isn't 6%, did you even read the latter part of my post? Seriously.

Yeah I did, using talents that can't even be simmed properly is mostly guess work with how RNG MM is, and you said yourself that this only matters in a fantasy world where single target metrics are useful for deciding a spec.

All classes are going to be changed and balanced more by the time raids open, hotfixes will be rolling out on a near daily basis after legion launches. Blizzard already has a post on the hunter forums asking for feedback. We could see some major changes in 7.1 which (according to Blizzard) will be hitting PTR very shortly after legion launches, so we could see major changes while Emerald Nightmare is still the current raid. All current 110 sims are not very accurate right now as well.

I know it's hard for you math wizards to factor in things like this, but at the end of the day you could get screwed with either spec. You are assuming everything is going to be the same 3 weeks into Legion, and it absolutely won't be.

The days of being able to min/max every single encounter are gone, at least for the first couple months of legion. It probably won't matter what spec anyone goes, the first raid will most likely not be a very difficult one, and by the time Nighthold comes we'll be able to swap between MM/BM as desired.

The whole BM vs MM debate is nothing but a way to pass time until Legion comes because anyone who has ever been apart of a expansion launch knows class/spec balance are going to change, drastically in some cases, especially during the first few weeks.

[Azortharion]

Good luck in Legion, tyrindor.

[Okacz]

It's funny how the whole 7 page argument is just a battle between MM and BM. Survival in Hunter family must be like this creepy uncle that was once invited to a wedding, and now nobody dares to say his name, fearing that he would come for a visit.

[tyrindor]

Good luck in Legion, tyrindor.

Also, not saying you don't have a better grasp on the current situation than I do. I've been using your guides for a long time now and greatly appreciate them, but it's literally impossible to know what the situation will be 3 weeks after Legion launches. I cannot agree with any statement like "At this point it's tempting to just let those who believe Beast Mastery is better be, and then they'll realize their mistake when they are left in the dust by any worthwhile guild come Legion."

There will definitely be more balancing before the first raid opens, and there will also be balancing during progression. So I don't quite understand how you know for sure that any hunter choosing BM will be left in the dust. It could be that the majority of hunters go MM, so they nerf it and/or buff BM, and then BM hunters are in demand. We don't know, and things like this happen all the time at the start of expansions.

I'll go with what I enjoy, and I'd suggest anyone else do the same. Even if we choose the wrong spec, and there's a meaningful difference, catching up is not a huge deal with the way it ramps up, it won't even be a 1 perk difference a couple weeks later.

[Mavick]

Also, not saying you don't have a better grasp on the current situation than I do. I've been using your guides for a long time now and greatly appreciate them, but it's literally impossible to know what the situation will be 3 weeks after Legion launches. I cannot agree with any statement like "At this point it's tempting to just let those who believe Beast Mastery is better be, and then they'll realize their mistake when they are left in the dust by any worthwhile guild come Legion."

There will definitely be more balancing before the first raid opens, and there will also be balancing during progression. So I don't quite understand how you know for sure that any hunter choosing BM will be left in the dust. It could be that the majority of hunters go MM, so they nerf it and/or buff BM, and then BM hunters are in demand. We don't know, and things like this happen all the time at the start of expansions.

I'll go with what I enjoy, and I'd suggest anyone else do the same. Even if we choose the wrong spec, and there's a meaningful difference, catching up is not a huge deal with the way it ramps up, it won't even be a 1 perk difference a couple weeks later.

I get the spirit of what you're saying, but it's far more pointless than what you're accusing Azor of saying. If a person asks "what is the best spec at 110", the proper answer to give right now is MM for raiding, BM for M+, and if you don't care about either play whatever the fuck you want.

If things change down the road then they change, so what. I don't think any hunter worth their salt is just going to completely ignore their second artifact and not be in a position to where they could get it relevant rather quickly. And I wouldn't be so sure about how far these balance changes might go, I believe it was Watcher who said in a pretty recent interview that they're not currently interested in changing the ordering of the specs as they now sit.

[tyrindor]

I get the spirit of what you're saying, but it's far more pointless than what you're accusing Azor of saying. If a person asks "what is the best spec at 110", the proper answer to give right now is MM for raiding, BM for M+, and if you don't care about either play whatever the fuck you want.

If things change down the road then they change, so what. I don't think any hunter worth their salt is just going to completely ignore their second artifact and not be in a position to where they could get it relevant rather quickly. And I wouldn't be so sure about how far these balance changes might go, I believe it was Watcher who said in a pretty recent interview that they're not currently interested in changing the ordering of the specs as they now sit.

I think the proper answer would be "Looks like MM for competitive mythic raiding but BM and MM are relatively close and balancing isn't finished".

Anything else is assuming that nothing will change before raids open, which would be the first time in any expansion, but I rest my case on the topic.

[Woobels]

I think the proper answer would be "Looks like MM for competitive raiding but BM and MM are relatively close and balancing isn't finished".

Anything outside of that is assuming that nothing will change before raids open, which would be the first time in any expansion, but I rest my case on the topic.

If Watcher isn't full of shit MM will be the #1 spec for raiding, and it won't change, he pretty clearly said they're not planning to change to 'ranking' of specs in power.

I'll find the post when I'm home.

[sultangurde]

The discussion about best spec is futile. People will take advantege of situation and post their opinions after only few hours on alpha/beta.
Maybe 0,1% people have actually raided on beta and only those people have right to judge potiential of spec. Me personally stick with Azor and point at MM as an ultimate raiding spec. Deciding factors for me are increased range of shots and good execution on low hp targets.

[tyrindor]

If Watcher isn't full of shit MM will be the #1 spec for raiding, and it won't change, he pretty clearly said they're not planning to change to 'ranking' of specs in power.

I'll find the post when I'm home.

I hope that's not Blizzard's stance, raiding an entire expansion as the same spec gets pretty boring. It shouldn't be that hard to get specs closer to each other with the huge ability prune. If BM is ~6% single target behind, you buff KC slightly, etc. Ideally, I'd want to see BM and MM hunters in the same raid but both getting assigned different jobs on fights - or at the bare minimum - hunters swapping specs based on the fight after both artifacts are nearly maxed.

[Kidoeng7]

I hope that's not Blizzard's stance, raiding an entire expansion as the same spec gets pretty boring.

Entire expansion? Please elaborate a bit this is the first patch of the new expansion if MM is the best at this patch isnt nothing to worry about, MM become relevant in HFC before that BM was top notch and SV was doing great also.
So as it stands if Azor says MM is the way to go, i have to agree with the lad. Next patch or raid tier maybe BM will be the way to go or even SV who knows.

[Smog]

I really don't know how many times @Azortharion has to say that it isn't the current tuning that makes MM the go-to spec for serious raiding; it's the toolkit. He's said it over and over and over, and every time, someone comes back with "They're so close it doesn't really matter and tuning might happen so play what you like!"

Well, yeah, duh, tuning might happen. But they aren't going to change the core mechanics of the spec in the middle of an expansion. As long as BM relies on its pet to do 12 yard cleaves and target switches like garbage because of pet pathing and travel, MM has a toolkit advantage. As long as MM can passively cleave for very strong aoe while still maintaining 100% ST focus dps, MM has a toolkit advantage. As long as MM has a much larger range that makes target switching and aoe'ing mobs that are practically standing on opposite sides of rooms from one another, MM has a toolkit advantage. And those things are part of the fundamental functions of the specs; they have nothing to do with tuning.

I really don't know how many times the guy can say it before people get it through their heads: MM is the better raiding spec because of its mechanics, not the current tuning. They would have to overtune BM fairly substantially to make it a better raiding spec. And nerfing top specs so that they're then worse than other specs within the same class is something Blizzard explicitly stated they would not do.

Watch his damn video on his YouTube channel. He explains all of this and gives multiple very specific examples from Legion raiding where MM just has huge advantages over BM.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to play BM, put your 13 points in BM and play BM in dungeons and mythic+ and world content (that's where you're going to spend most of your time anyway), but don't pretend like Azor's arguments are invalid or misconstrued because he has some ulterior motive as a MM lobbyist. Blizzard is not paying Azor under the table to pitch for MM because they secretly hate the other two specs. Look at his rankings. Do you really think he wouldn't play the best raiding spec, regardless of whether or not it's MM?

[Kazezoku]

Too much arguing in this thread... Let the kiddies that want to be BM go BM, and then see their mistakes when they get outranked by all the MMs. Untill AFP 16-ish happens... if you fked up with your first artifact weapon choice, you will never be as caught up with those who did select the correct AFW the first time around. Good luck, have fun~

[Hexanite]

... if you fked up with your first artifact weapon choice, you will never be as caught up with those who did select the correct AFW the first time around.

That's the basic concern for lots of people looking at more experienced beta players, simulating, and guides. The way Legion appears to be setup, if you spend your artifact power on the wrong spec, you should just reroll a new class. That might be exaggerating just a bit, but that's my perception. I'm betting that catching up if you have to switch specs is a grovelling experience.

[Bepples]

before that BM was top notch and SV was doing great also.

A golden age for Hunters.

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It's funny how the whole 7 page argument is just a battle between MM and BM. Survival in Hunter family must be like this creepy uncle that was once invited to a wedding, and now nobody dares to say his name, fearing that he would come for a visit.

Yep. And it can, should, and will remain that way.

[Kazezoku]

That's the basic concern for lots of people looking at more experienced beta players, simulating, and guides. The way Legion appears to be setup, if you spend your artifact power on the wrong spec, you should just reroll a new class. That might be exaggerating just a bit, but that's my perception. I'm betting that catching up if you have to switch specs is a grovelling experience.

I mean if they still have concerns after having been showered with information from higher end hunters... then I guess they can save every little artifact increasing item they get and spend it on what ever they want, whenever they want.

[Effinhunter]

The ones that give the highest iLvl. If they are the same iLvl, I will say Windrunner's Guidance while Effinhunter will say Precision. Pick your poison.

I was wrong about that. Azor is correct that I was overvaluing Precision by accidentally setting that profile to use Marked For Death. If there's a problem with MfD in the sim, I haven't found it yet. See the theorycrafting thread for more details on the new relic sim. My bad on that.

[Crispin]

If you're a burden by playing the slightly worse BM spec, then you're also a burden by playing a worse ranged class, not sure how anyone who'd argue that you'd be a "burden" havent rerolled fire mage at this point.

Luckily wow isnt a job, and unless you treat it like one and do not raid 3 weeks straight when the first mythic releases, play BM if you prefere it. Sims do not calculate individual fun.

[Effinhunter]

Entire expansion? Please elaborate a bit this is the first patch of the new expansion if MM is the best at this patch isnt nothing to worry about, MM become relevant in HFC before that BM was top notch and SV was doing great also.
So as it stands if Azor says MM is the way to go, i have to agree with the lad. Next patch or raid tier maybe BM will be the way to go or even SV who knows.

They would have to signficantly buff the AP gain on offspecs for us to be able to switch so quickly. Unless, we're all going full dps traits on each spec instead of whittling away at the final traits in MM.

It's MM right now. There really isn't another option for anyone in a ranged position during progression right now, especially not in an instance like EN.

[Deleted]

I really don't know how many times @Azortharion has to say that it isn't the current tuning that makes MM the go-to spec for serious raiding; it's the toolkit. He's said it over and over and over, and every time, someone comes back with "They're so close it doesn't really matter and tuning might happen so play what you like!"

Well, yeah, duh, tuning might happen. But they aren't going to change the core mechanics of the spec in the middle of an expansion. As long as BM relies on its pet to do 12 yard cleaves and target switches like garbage because of pet pathing and travel, MM has a toolkit advantage. As long as MM can passively cleave for very strong aoe while still maintaining 100% ST focus dps, MM has a toolkit advantage. As long as MM has a much larger range that makes target switching and aoe'ing mobs that are practically standing on opposite sides of rooms from one another, MM has a toolkit advantage. And those things are part of the fundamental functions of the specs; they have nothing to do with tuning.

I really don't know how many times the guy can say it before people get it through their heads: MM is the better raiding spec because of its mechanics, not the current tuning. They would have to overtune BM fairly substantially to make it a better raiding spec. And nerfing top specs so that they're then worse than other specs within the same class is something Blizzard explicitly stated they would not do.

Watch his damn video on his YouTube channel. He explains all of this and gives multiple very specific examples from Legion raiding where MM just has huge advantages over BM.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to play BM, put your 13 points in BM and play BM in dungeons and mythic+ and world content (that's where you're going to spend most of your time anyway), but don't pretend like Azor's arguments are invalid or misconstrued because he has some ulterior motive as a MM lobbyist. Blizzard is not paying Azor under the table to pitch for MM because they secretly hate the other two specs. Look at his rankings. Do you really think he wouldn't play the best raiding spec, regardless of whether or not it's MM?

Well i think this is a forum and not azortharions personal blog, so discussions and different points of view are not only tolerated but they are usually welcome in forums like this one.

Azors knowledge and experience IS getting the respect it deserves, but that doesn t mean that everyone has to accept what he says like its the word of god himself, because things are usually a little bit more complicated and people tend to overlook things or under / over -estimate certain factors.

I personally have informed myself a lot about BM and MM and azor (together with some other dicussions and arguing going on) has pretty much convinced me so that i will probably go for MM as it looks right now (going mm for leveling, after i work on BM weapon to lvl13, after i cont. with MM weapon), but simply because you or me are allready convinced doesn t mean that the discussion and arguing has to stop at that point.

The more arguing, the more different oppinions and points of view, the better.....