What exactly is our strength as DPS?

[RuneDK]

Buffing an underperforming spec so that it beats the current top spec would give a similar result though. While you aren't losing power in reality you lose power by comparison. Anyone always aiming for the best performing spec will still be in the position where he feels the need to switch the spec and feel like tehy wasted a whole lot of artifact power to a spec he doesn't want to play any longer.

While I don't see blizz being capable of holding on to their word, simply because players and developers will have different views on when artifact power feels wasted and their record of shooting sparrows with cannons when they don't like something.

Whats way more alarming for me is that frost is down there to begin with. It has even less of a kit than unholy and sits at the bottom of the barrel. Unholy's design might be capable to cover a lot of weaknesses and hold its own atleast to a decent degree but frost really shows how poor the base kit currently is and the sheer fact that frost starts out so low shows that there simply is no compensation and that there is probably very little intent on ever handing it out. So its like its ever been and dk is at the mercy of developers thinking they might need to buff it a little and we have seen how that worked out in WoD.

The whole class fantasy story has done more harm than good to the class.

The problem with the fantasy crap is they gave all of the DK fantasy to unholy...Frost is an Ice Warrior. Frost should have been Soul Reaping and Frost Damage and Unholy should be All pet/disease damage. I've personally hated the artifact idea since they announced it because if you choose wrong...well it's basically a big F-U. I'm having a ton of fun on my other classes right now, so will have ZERO problem rerolling if frost ends up being shit. I don't hate the current unholy(in fact I think it's the most fun it's been in a long time) but if it's supreme for another expansion then they clearly do not care about making frost a valuable spec.

Also, it does have that effect, but lets say they buff frost for 7.2.....and it ends up ahead of unholy...If you haven't or didn't upgrade the Frost artifact then that's your problem to begin with. I feel like by the 2nd tier...you should have at least 2 artifacts fully leveled, that's excluding the bonus damage filler traits. Possibly even three..So, it at that point shouldn't matter what spec is better. OR the better solution is Allow Artifact respeccing. This way they can buff and nerf accordingly without people feeling like they wasted Artifact power.

[Dracovian]

I honestly think that his comments are ridiculous...you wont balance specs accordingly because you don't want people to feel they wasted AP...so...if you choose wrong...you're SOL(and therefor wasted AP)....I highly doubt that will be the case...Balance is the most important thing for them this expansion where simulation and practicality of the specs need to be within 5-7% from top to bottom. Obviously you should have niche fights for each spec to excel each tier, but if they're not going to properly balance and then eventually let frost be ahead dps wise..for the lack of a kit it has in comparison to unholy then they may as well just remove frost altogether and move a DK to a two spec class. However, I know if shit isn't balanced properly this expansion a lot of people will be quitting, and I will definitely be one of them.

His comments are so dumb. He used mage as an example which has 3 dps specs. So to prevent 1 spec from feeling like they wasted their AP you make the other 2 definitely waste theirs? Great logic Ion.

[RuneDK]

His comments are so dumb. He used mage as an example which has 3 dps specs. So to prevent 1 spec from feeling like they wasted their AP you make the other 2 definitely waste theirs? Great logic Ion.

Yea, however most mages enjoy all three specs. I know I did when I mained a mage. There isn't inner spec rivalry on mage quite like there is here with DKs. Every class definitely has it...but it's not a frost sucks so nerf unholy or unholy sucks so nerf frost vibe from those respective classes.

[Dracovian]

The whole class fantasy story has done more harm than good to the class.

Selective class fantasy at that. Frost should be top 3 on Patchwerk according to Blizzard's own explanation to DKs lack of monbility yet they are dead last. So the drawbacks of the fantasy are enforced but the upside is not and all of this ignoring their amazing utility (1 grip).

[RuneDK]

Selective class fantasy at that. Frost should be top 3 on Patchwerk according to Blizzard's own explanation to DKs lack of monbility yet they are dead last. So the drawbacks of the fantasy are enforced but the upside is not and all of this ignoring their amazing utility (1 grip).

As a whole, you can't take the current inaccurate sims as fact....Outlaw is high...but if you go through the sim, it's because roll the bones is proc'ing all six buffs 100% of the time....In the days I played leveling my rogue, as outlaw, via invasions...I got all six less than five times. So, just from that alone...I wouldn't look at these sims and think they're a good source.

[Piz813]

I honestly think that his comments are ridiculous...you wont balance specs accordingly because you don't want people to feel they wasted AP...so...if you choose wrong...you're SOL(and therefor wasted AP)....I highly doubt that will be the case...Balance is the most important thing for them this expansion where simulation and practicality of the specs need to be within 5-7% from top to bottom. Obviously you should have niche fights for each spec to excel each tier, but if they're not going to properly balance and then eventually let frost be ahead dps wise..for the lack of a kit it has in comparison to unholy then they may as well just remove frost altogether and move a DK to a two spec class. However, I know if shit isn't balanced properly this expansion a lot of people will be quitting, and I will definitely be one of them.

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I haven't seen your mythic+ unholy links...if you wouldn't mind throwing them my way in PM or even just pumping them out on this thread would be appreciated. However M+ isn't the main spectrum of end-game as specs will be viewed from Mythic Raiding.

http://imgur.com/j37Skha

http://imgur.com/5VYZkta

first pic is from a world boss Tuesday. Second is from the mythic last night before some upgrades. I dont have the UH screen shots on this PC but I feel its kinda skewed because of the legendary bracers, which make UH insanely good and fun. Flows with popping 6 wounds with one SS instead of waiting for 3 runes. My main thing last night was showing Frozen Pulse IS GOOD with the "BURN IT ALL" Frost play style. no KM? Use GA, RW, or FS if you have runic power. None of those off CD but you have some runes? Hit OB and hope it crits for a Rime or to deplete everything so Frozen Pulse kicks in and with Icy Talons my melee hits are faster.

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oh also I snuck in that Mythic group. my ilevel was like 838 but shows higher cause I have all legendaries in my bags dirty trick but it works

[RuneDK]

http://imgur.com/j37Skha

http://imgur.com/5VYZkta

first pic is from a world boss Tuesday. Second is from the mythic last night before some upgrades. I dont have the UH screen shots on this PC but I feel its kinda skewed because of the legendary bracers, which make UH insanely good and fun. Flows with popping 6 wounds with one SS instead of waiting for 3 runes. My main thing last night was showing Frozen Pulse IS GOOD with the "BURN IT ALL" Frost play style. no KM? Use GA, RW, or FS if you have runic power. None of those off CD but you have some runes? Hit OB and hope it crits for a Rime or to deplete everything so Frozen Pulse kicks in and with Icy Talons my melee hits are faster.

I don't think anyone's argument on FP is that it's a bad talent damage wise...It's more of the talent forces a very poor style of gameplay. Which is why Maxweii was saying it's a shite talent. Because ultimately it is in terms of gameplay regardless of how much damage it does provide. Even in HFC I hated the gameplay of it, just it was too strong to look past. That could change with the artifact...I definitely plan to play around with the spec as a whole and try different talents/playstyle to see which one I like the most for all situations then for niche situations.

[Shibito]

We got the best artifact weapon ever APOCALYYYYPSE so we had to suffer on other fronts

[Piz813]

I don't think anyone's argument on FP is that it's a bad talent damage wise...It's more of the talent forces a very poor style of gameplay. Which is why Maxweii was saying it's a shite talent. Because ultimately it is in terms of gameplay regardless of how much damage it does provide. Even in HFC I hated the gameplay of it, just it was too strong to look past. That could change with the artifact...I definitely plan to play around with the spec as a whole and try different talents/playstyle to see which one I like the most for all situations then for niche situations.

i saw what Max said and that other elitest snob with swing timers and shit too. one of them is a top 100 guild raider and I have no clue about the other- just know he does not have beta and has not tried it himself.

Frost has 3-4 paths. I found the talents I have and button smashing was the most fun for ME. i tried other builds and was not too thrilled. the classic Freezing Fog, Runic Attune, Shattering Strike where you focus on OBs, Frost Strikes, and Rime procs. even with the L helm it was meh. Frost Scythe build with Murderous, Horn but that was just one button over and over again. very good damage but Zzzzz. the way I play in the images and the stuff I use. BoS focused build with Murder, Horn, Runic Attune. I tried that and was lucky to get grouped with a UH Castagator DA player. I got him good on the forst boss of EoA, we were neck and neck on Hatecoil/Hydra asshole/Tidewalker guy and he curb stomped me on Wrath when he popped Army and my BoS fell off a little too early cause I forgot to use the !Breath of Sindragosa macro...

in Mythic 4 Black Rook Hold I controlled Undead a minion kitty and a Lancer and used Frost Scythe. Packs of trash MELTED. Too good not to use. In mythic 3 of HoV as UH, packs took a little too long for my tastes with the whole DnD wounds set up and popping them. Found EPidemic was 10 times better and easier when the clock is ticking. But one could set loot for UH and play frost in Mythics if they want. Ill know more this week once I flesh out my weapons more.

but Frost Scythe and Icy Talons is my go to way to play a spec everyone shits on with no beta access one hit and its all 300+k crits on my screen

[Galathir]

We got the best artifact weapon ever APOCALYYYYPSE so we had to suffer on other fronts

Not sure if serious, trolling or sarcastic. Lorewise I find Apocalypse very underwhelming (after watching a video of its acquisition).
Especially when DKs always had one of the most iconic weapons in the game. A 2h-sword.
But hey nope, let's break it up into two onehanders that look like popsicles. And give them to the specc everyone complains about. Way better.

I'd even have preferred the artifact return of Shadowmourne.

[Krazzorx]

Would not want to do mythic archi without a single target death grip for rng infernals landing on each other and them not moving for a bit. Not entirely sure if there will be anything like that in Legion but if there is, DG still very unique.

[Casterbridge]

I'd even have preferred the artifact return of Shadowmourne.

Honestly this is what I wish they would have done, send us on a quest to further empower Shadowmourne.

[Piz813]

as a side question where are all these Sims people keep talking about? have not seen one.

[Galathir]

Honestly this is what I wish they would have done, send us on a quest to further empower Shadowmourne.

Yeah, although to be honest that would probably have earned Blizzard even more citicism because every DK would suddenly have Shadowmourne, even if they didn't craft it in the first place and people would complain that not only did we get a reused order hall, we also would have been the only ones to get a reused artifact.

[Darktbs]

Not sure if trolling or sarcastic. Lorewise I find Apocalypse very underwhelming (after watching a video of its acquisition).
Especially when DKs always had one of the most iconic weapons in the game. A 2h-sword.
But hey nope, let's break it up into two onehanders that look like popsicles. And give them to the specc everyone complains about. Way better.

I'd even have preferred the artifact return of Shadowmourne.

The only problem with the Frost artifact is that it doesn't sheath in the back.Compared to Unholy that looks like a generic 2H Sword with a generic questline.

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Yeah, although to be honest that would probably have earned Blizzard even more citicizm because every DK would suddenly have Shadowmourne, even if they didn't craft it in the first place and people would complain that not only did we get a reused order hall, we also would have been the only ones to get a reused artifact.

Thunderfury ?

[Galathir]

Thunderfury ?

That doesn't count because just like Corrupted Ashbringer it's only one skin but the weapon itself is not "Thunderfury" but "The Dreadblades" that can be made to look like Thunderfury.

[Tyrean]

I like frost better. I don't like the pet, I don't like the small hits, I don't like the gargoyle, I really don't like the idea that I am supposed to be this hulking plate armored two hand wielding monster that eats away your life with diseases, pets, etc. I really think they missed the mark on the fantasy of each and should have taken unholy to be the dual wield spec that focuses on debuffing the target to make diseases and pets hit harder. Then left frost as the big two handed heavy hitter and making obliterate actually live up to it's name.

As it is now though, I just like frost better because the numbers are fun, the spec is deceptively simple which allows for some room to be better, I just am skeptical that it won't fall behind like in every other expansion. I don't have to worry about the 5% difference though as I am in a heroic guild that will dabble in mythic. I am guessing that it will be just fine, but as long as I am having fun I will keep playing it. Something to be said about enjoying the raid instead of working the raid.

[Darktbs]

That doesn't count because just like Corrupted Ashbringer it's only one skin but the weapon itself is not "Thunderfury" but "The Dreadblades" that can be made to look like Thunderfury.

Which is a slap in the face to everyone that got the Legendary but can't transmog it because is well Legendary.While Paladins get the corrupted Ashbringer,those that already have the sword from Vanilla/Tbc still can transmog it.

Those that got the blade when was current or when farming can't have the blade unless they are a outlaw rogue.

[Galathir]

Which is a slap in the face to everyone that got the Legendary but can't transmog it because is well Legendary.While Paladins get the corrupted Ashbringer,those that already have the sword from Vanilla/Tbc still can transmog it.

Those that got the blade when was current or when farming can't have the blade unless they are a outlaw rogue.

Okay, but that is an entirely different issue than what I stated.

[Gemini Soul]

but Frost Scythe and Icy Talons is my go to way to play a spec everyone shits on with no beta access one hit and its all 300+k crits on my screen

I have Beta and from my testing with and with out Legendaries, Unholy stomps Frost.

Even if you were to remove the damage from the equation, Unholy has more ways of doing it spread/clumped AoE, way more utility, more mobility, better survivability, heck the 15% AoE dmg reduction is huge on their artifact. Unholy has over all the better total package with out damage being considered, then you add dmg in and unholy goes higher. Speaking of Artifacts, Frost has a 5 min "Hunter Barrage" CD that hits everything in its path for 40yards in front of the player. That is a pain cause you want to use it, but if you stand where you need to use it so you don't pull other crap then your standing bad or there is no safe place to stand to use it so you don't pull extra crap. Then there is the icing on the cake, Frost has to spend ArtPow to get their clicky, they are the ONLY spec who has to do this.

I like both specs, but its very easy to see that they spent a lot more time on Unholy + Apoc than they did Frost + Twin

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Which is a slap in the face to everyone that got the Legendary but can't transmog it because is well Legendary.While Paladins get the corrupted Ashbringer,those that already have the sword from Vanilla/Tbc still can transmog it.

Those that got the blade when was current or when farming can't have the blade unless they are a outlaw rogue.

Corrupted Ashbringer was never a Legendary, so your argument is flawed. Your comparing Apples to Oranges.