Momentum vs Nemesis

[Lucrece]

You do know that you don't have to run prepared right? Like again, Dblades/Nem is close enough in dps that the only real time you will see a difference is a) someone is very good at momentum and can keep 70% or better uptime or b) AoE. All the hate on FR, VR, and momentum is currently unjustified. Now if they nerf Dblades anymore or Nemesis then sure you have a reason to gripe but currently the specs are both viable.

In other words, you don't HAVE to use VR at all if you don't want to. That is your choice. Because I am 99% sure that not of one of you wishing for changes are in a top 50 guild so the ~10k dps loss will not affect you.

The easier change would be allowing for momentum durations triggered by each movement ability to stack, so tying the use of VR with FR would not be a waste.

And the difference is noticeable enough, especially in AoE where Nemesis does not even come close.

[Delekii]

You do know that you don't have to run prepared right? Like again, Dblades/Nem is close enough in dps that the only real time you will see a difference is a) someone is very good at momentum and can keep 70% or better uptime or b) AoE. All the hate on FR, VR, and momentum is currently unjustified. Now if they nerf Dblades anymore or Nemesis then sure you have a reason to gripe but currently the specs are both viable.

In other words, you don't HAVE to use VR at all if you don't want to. That is your choice. Because I am 99% sure that not of one of you wishing for changes are in a top 50 guild so the ~10k dps loss will not affect you.

Because guilds that are not in the top 50 don't struggle against dps requirements and expect their raiders to do the most damage they can. Logical argument.

[Lucrece]

Not to mention that his argument only applies to single target, as soon as more than one target comes into the picture, momentum pulls ahead by miles.

The other problem with his argument is he suggest a remedy for one evil with said remedy being another likely evil (demonblades).

Nobody dislikes the idea of momentum, anyways. Movement is fine. It's the way vengeful retreat is used that is not perceived as fine.

They are trying some bullshit essentialist argument that vengeful retreat into a mob's hitbox is some integral part of momentum, and that its identity would be compromised if vengeful retreat interaction with momentum were changed. So they try to pervert your argument into some strawman about not wanting to play momentum at all, when in fact that's not what one argued.

[Raikh]

Even if momentum duration did stack it would be far from optimal to just spam your mobility whenever you want. You won't have enough resources to spend to cover multiple momentum windows chained, so you would still spread them out or you would sit there using demon's bite during momentum which you want to avoid.
It could be a neat QoL change to have it stack to make it easier to approach the momentum playstyle and close the gap on bad and good momentum usage but I don't think thats what blizz had in mind when creating momentum.

VR as a rotational tool is not unique to momentum with prepared so its not a single outlier creating the playstyle you don't like but two which makes it pretty clear that this playstyle is wanted to exist and is most likely also wanted to be the most rewarding way to play, since its the one requiring the most attention and thought to play.

Additionally turning the camera and using VR vs. VR and FR is so nitpicky i can barely take it seriously. Turning your camera to control your backlfip so it places you where you want is not degenerate gameplay, its intelligent ability usage and as long as it is somewhere in your rotation for whatever reason this is the best way to use it since VR isn't on the gcd and doesn't stop you from using abilities and leaving melee range pretty much guarantees that you lose auto attacks.

This is at best a discussion about opinions. I personally really enjoy that playstyle and don't necessarily want it changed as long as its functional. So its opinion against opinion and thats it. Or are they arguments which makes it problematic in general and not just a nuance you don't like?

[Schizoide]

Well, I don't want to reposition rotationally myself and wish there was some way to optionally talent out of it, but you're right that's not what this thread is about.

The best fix for being forced to vengeful retreat obliquely to the mob's hitbox (which I agree, really is annoying) is to make the Momentum buff duration stack, so you can vengeful retreat out then immediately fel rush back in.

[Lucrece]

Exactly, just allowing the buff to not be wasted by VR>FR by making durations stack would be more than a perfect compromise anyways. May not be still as optimal as VR into a hitbox, but it will close the gap considerably to marginal levels.

And TBH I'm pretty sure that's what they intended with VR when they included it in the gameplay, for it to be combined with fel rush.

[Deleted]

Momentum gives 13,33..% with prepared build per minute. without prepared only 10,66..%
while nemesis gives 10% per minute.

[Feawen]

Ehh, chalk up to some people don't like moving around the fight and being an agile movement oriented DPS and want DHs to be homogenized into every other shit on the bosses ass standing still dps. While....

Some people like me get and love DH and included Momo playstyle. I like learning the encounters and when I need to get MOMO up. The fury planning/generation, execution of FR and VR on varying hit box sizes. This is not the first class to employ camera turning; Disengage anyone? We just do it more. Though keyboard turners will have more issues with that then those that move with their mouses.

[Raikh]

Momentum gives 13,33..% with prepared build per minute. without prepared only 10,66..%
while nemesis gives 10% per minute.

Average percentages don't indicate the power difference. Since our rotation consists of building and dumping resources with some big red buttons once in a while our damage is not smoothed out perfectly and momentum allows you bring all resource dumping and dmg cds into momentum while leaving the down time filled with builder phases. So momentum has not only higher uptime but is also more valuable.
So even if you play without prepared and the theoretical uptime of momentum and nemesis are close (which still entirely depends on offensive blur uptime and combat duration) momentum will still be more of a damage gain than 0,66%.

[Bearded Sith]

I think the important thing to remember here is Momentum changes the playstyle. If that's something you enjoy, that type of playstyle, then go for it. Otherwise, pick Nemesis. I personally am not a huge fan of the "zip-here-then-back-to-the-boss" playstyle. So, I'll be taking Nemesis.

[Deleted]

Average percentages don't indicate the power difference. Since our rotation consists of building and dumping resources with some big red buttons once in a while our damage is not smoothed out perfectly and momentum allows you bring all resource dumping and dmg cds into momentum while leaving the down time filled with builder phases. So momentum has not only higher uptime but is also more valuable.
So even if you play without prepared and the theoretical uptime of momentum and nemesis are close (which still entirely depends on offensive blur uptime and combat duration) momentum will still be more of a damage gain than 0,66%.

it is actually accurate. but still momentum is easier because you weave the big cooldowns in it. with prepared you can have about 40s momentum in a minute.

but with nemesis you are able to weave the big cooldown in it too. in the end they playstyle with those two talents is different.

momentum is just slightly better than nemesis.

[Dimzum]

it is actually accurate. but still momentum is easier because you weave the big cooldowns in it. with prepared you can have about 40s momentum in a minute.

but with nemesis you are able to weave the big cooldown in it too. in the end they playstyle with those two talents is different.

momentum is just slightly better than nemesis.

You're missing his point.

With momentum, it's 4 secs of Fury dump/chaos strike spam at a time. If done correctly you are not building fury (or in the case of demon blades waiting for it to build) at all.
With Nemesis you spend that entire 1 minute dumping and building. You are inherently doing less damage because you are spending more time building fury than you would be with momentum.

[Lucrece]

I think the important thing to remember here is Momentum changes the playstyle. If that's something you enjoy, that type of playstyle, then go for it. Otherwise, pick Nemesis. I personally am not a huge fan of the "zip-here-then-back-to-the-boss" playstyle. So, I'll be taking Nemesis.

You'll still be doing it because of Fel Mastery. Are you people completely ignorant of how strong fel rush is?

[Hexxidecimal]

Not to mention that his argument only applies to single target, as soon as more than one target comes into the picture, momentum pulls ahead by miles.

The other problem with his argument is he suggest a remedy for one evil with said remedy being another likely evil (demonblades).

Nobody dislikes the idea of momentum, anyways. Movement is fine. It's the way vengeful retreat is used that is not perceived as fine.

They are trying some bullshit essentialist argument that vengeful retreat into a mob's hitbox is some integral part of momentum, and that its identity would be compromised if vengeful retreat interaction with momentum were changed. So they try to pervert your argument into some strawman about not wanting to play momentum at all, when in fact that's not what one argued.

I thought the accepted for of VR usage now is VR -> Throw Glaive x2 while running back into melee. Or if an AoE situation with more than three you just eyebeam.

[Deleted]

You're missing his point.

With momentum, it's 4 secs of Fury dump/chaos strike spam at a time. If done correctly you are not building fury (or in the case of demon blades waiting for it to build) at all.
With Nemesis you spend that entire 1 minute dumping and building. You are inherently doing less damage because you are spending more time building fury than you would be with momentum.

you are right, but "to do it correctly" is another factor

i say momentum is easier to weave with your cooldowns but still hard to do this correctly.

momentum is a dps lose when you do it wrong anyway.

nemesis is easier to handle but has more downtimes and its harder to coordinate with your big cooldowns like eyebeam, fel barrage, demonic(passive) or metamorphis.

but lets be realistic, in raids....you cannot stick a whole minute to a boss, alone that fact makes momentum or even fel eruption the better choice.

sometimes you have to use felrush as a gapcloser or avoid aoe and that makes the dumping method shitty and also momentum.

or you stack mastery for the movementbonus and keep felrush and retreat for your dumping method, then it will work well.

it is hard to tell but i believe

momentum > fel eruption > nemesis for raids

nemesis> fel eruption > momentum for arena

fel eruption > momentum > nemesis for bg

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You'll still be doing it because of Fel Mastery. Are you people completely ignorant of how strong fel rush is?

fel mastery+prepared+felblade+momentum is for me the best choice to play a momentum build. you will be like a fucking ping-pong ball in the raid

choochill is right too. not everyone likes that playstyle so sticking to nemesis isn't bad either

[Dimzum]

you are right, but "to do it correctly" is another factor

i say momentum is easier to weave with your cooldowns but still hard to do this correctly.

momentum is a dps lose when you do it wrong anyway.

To do it correctly is the whole point. The fact is with prepared you can have almost 65%+ uptime on momentum. Even if you are terrible and can only manage a 50% uptime, that is still better than Nemesis. 50% uptime on fury dumps and CDs will be better than 50% uptime on Builders, dumps and CDs. The fact is, you're getting to buff most (if not all) of your CDs and a good chunk of your Chaos Strikes.

nemesis is easier to handle but has more downtimes and its harder to coordinate with your big cooldowns like eyebeam, fel barrage, demonic(passive) or metamorphis.

Nemesis is fire and forget. If you know when you're raid is going to burn, save it for that duration. It's the easiest thing to plan for.

but lets be realistic, in raids....you cannot stick a whole minute to a boss, alone that fact makes momentum or even fel eruption the better choice.

Agree and disagree. Yes boss movements are chaotic and hectic, but the time off a boss should be minimal. Fel Eruption is not a better choice ever.

sometimes you have to use felrush as a gapcloser or avoid aoe and that makes the dumping method shitty and also momentum.

or you stack mastery for the movementbonus and keep felrush and retreat for your dumping method, then it will work well.

Know the fight, know when to save your movements to increase your damage while getting out of bad stuff. It requires planning ahead and thinking on your feet as well. You very well may have to burn your FR or VR, but you also have double jump and glide which are not to be overlooked.

it is hard to tell but i believe

momentum > fel eruption > nemesis for raids

nemesis> fel eruption > momentum for arena

fel eruption > momentum > nemesis for bg

It's not hard to tell, it's been mathed out. Momentum>Nemesis>Fel eruption for raids.

PVP, fel eruption is pretty damn solid.

[Perovano]

Yeah, as far as I can tell, I really like momentum play style but as a PvP perspective, like our friend here said, Nemesis is the best option in Arenas. The best burst combo I tried and the Pro players are using is based on Nemesis. I agree with wechselgeld, but different of him, I believe Nemesis is easier to control with big cooldowns when you macro it and that's what makes Nemesis ''better'' in Arenas, when everything is about timing. When you build enough fury, just pop nemesis, Chaos Blades and Meta, folowed by RoTI and Death Sweep when specced into First blood. Only the Death sweep hit deals almost 40% and it's a free kill with some annihilations. And with a kill, you still have nemesis applied to everyone else for the remaining duration.

And for bg's, I agree nemesis is the worst option because a kill is almost never guaranteed when playing against good healers.

Fel eruption doesn't work really well in arenas due to excessive amount of stuns and it's almost a waste of talent, besides the damage it gives few utility.

[Schizoide]

You'll still be doing it because of Fel Mastery. Are you people completely ignorant of how strong fel rush is?

You'll still be using Fel Rush every 10s, yes.

There's a great deal more to Momentum than that; there's vengeful leaping every 15s, using Blur to proc 2 charges of Fel Rush as a mini-cooldown, never using FR/VR back to back, and of course timing your highest damage abilities to execute inside the Momentum damage window. All of that can be avoided by picking Nemesis.

But I still think Momentum is a better pick, even if you're lax about the buff uptime and don't bother to time abilities inside the window, simply because it also works on common AE/cleave and Nemesis as more of a traditional long cooldown really won't be used for that.

[Lucrece]

You'll still be using Fel Rush every 10s, yes.

There's a great deal more to Momentum than that; there's vengeful leaping every 15s, using Blur to proc 2 charges of Fel Rush as a mini-cooldown, never using FR/VR back to back, and of course timing your highest damage abilities to execute inside the Momentum damage window. All of that can be avoided by picking Nemesis.

But I still think Momentum is a better pick, even if you're lax about the buff uptime and don't bother to time abilities inside the window, simply because it also works on common AE/cleave and Nemesis as more of a traditional long cooldown really won't be used for that.

Blur fel rush reset with artifact still applies whether you got momentum or not. It's tied to fel mastery, not momentum. And Pawketz calculated that usage to be about a 2% gain, basically marginal if you'd rather bank your survival cooldown for situations where you actually need to survive or reduce pressure on the healers.

With Nemesis, you trade the evils of momentum for another set. Nemesis is a long enough cd that it won't be of much benefit for mythic+ dungeons as trash packs is the vast majority of the clearing experience. Nemesis comes with the drawbacks of obvious judgement calls on when to use lengthy cooldowns, it's tied to a single target, and requires timing to kill the target if you want the bonus for it.

I agree with you on the general points, I just don't think suggesting Nemesis as a consolation prize for a subpar talent is something that people should be told to swallow. People are right to call for better balancing of talent tiers, and for wonks like vengeful retreat usage to be revised.

[Schizoide]

You're right, blur resetting isn't tied to Momentum.

And I completely agree that the talents are poorly balanced. Too many are obvious choices-- much more obvious than Momentum.