1. #8581
    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    You might have got the wrong impression from me here. I dont think flight should be restricted behind a difficulty setting, at all.
    On the other hand, I also dont think everyone should have access to everything though (and possibly because i play at a high level). I like the idea of a really hard boss or instance or encounter or world quest or whatever, that can only be done by the 'skilled' players.
    This is not to say the majority of the content should be inaccessible - but if 5% of it is locked to a particular range of players (the best of the best,people who do a lot of fishing, or people who do a lot of archaeology and so on) i dont have a problem with that. Some exclusive content is, IMO, a good thing as it offers an incentive to maybe try something new.







    Its manual LFD, but you have some control over your group. I really am not bothered if the mythics are added to the auto-queued system as well, but as you know, im not a fan of point-click-complete aspects of the game anyway
    Sorry, I'm on my phone and reading things in small bits at work. I got carried away with arguing the LFG side. I think we're in agreement about having mythic be part of the flying unlock. We also have different views on exclusive content, but that not really within the scope of the flying discussion.

  2. #8582
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seramore View Post
    How is this thread still going? Are people just constantly randomly replying to the original post?
    No, it is going because of you. See? I replied to your silly post and the thread goes on. Ironic innit?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  3. #8583
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Yes they are mandatory if you want to unlock flying but most likely mythic raiders will not bother with it because the attunements necessary to unlock Court of Stars and Arcway is going to take too long. By then mythic raiders aka Ion Hazzikostas and his gang are going to be working on Nighthold which will release early 2017 on the heels of patch 7.1

    So flying meta achievement aka Legion patchfinder is held hostage behind massive rep grinds and attunements.
    yea and peoples in this very thread have the gal to call it "middle ground" and a "compromise"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    We will find out as soon as Legion launches 7.1 goes on the PTR immediately. But yeah if part 2 is as extensive as legion patch finder part 1 requiring kara then a lot of players will be upset. Also it will probably give a gauge when flying will be available as 7.2 seems like the first opportunity. Flying in 7.1 would be a surprise but you never know.

    Right now it is shaping up to be a huge disaster that could have been avoided. Oh well.
    well i don't expect flying unlocked in 7.1 since this patch seem more an improvised one than something they had already programmed i'm more inclined to think that pathfinder part 2 come out in 7.2 with maybe another rep to grind ad probably karazhan mythic and more as prerequisite.

    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    errrr what? Where did i tell anyone how to play the game

    The LFG tool allows you to filter out players you dont want to group with, so no its not the same as automatically being placed with anyone.
    If they dont want to group with you because you dont have mythic gear for heroics, thats their choice - but they probably want speed clears rather than progression fights with wipes. Both groups are equally ok in their own right (there is no issue with casual/lower skilled/high skill groups), but you cant ask the leader of one type to accomodate the other and expect he does so.

    I ignored mythic dungeon and challange mode, i'm not interested in wasting 1 hour trying to find a group and another hour doing a dungeon; if other peoples like it they can run it as much as they want but ffs don't make mandatory to unlock flying.

    and no forming myself a group is the same i don't have nor the ability or the patience to guide a group inside a mythic dungeon.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  4. #8584
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    [SNIP] So just to note. I am honestly against the idea of mythic completion as part of this system. Not because it can't be done or because it's "hard" but because it makes no sense in the context of pathfinder itself. That being said, I still don't forsee a sea of tears and players banging down the virtual doors at blizzard (the forums) in great mass. [SNIP]
    While I think that the outcry about prolongued no-flying will be as massive as in WoD, if not even more (because in WoD, you did not have to do much in the world, but in Legion you will have to be there), I also think that having dungeon completion as a requirement for an outdoor feature is completely moronic.

    Pathfinder is not there to measure our open world completion, else it would only have open world content. It's there to prevent people to obtain flying for as long as possible, even if flying is enabled at some later point in the game. It's just like with Draenor pathfinder - even with the implementation of the achievement, people still had to complete new reputations, some of which were gated by the daily quest construct (or a hefty investment into medaillons, which have been quite expensive right after the launch of the Tanaan patch).

    This is not a good way to handle a feature which does not have any impact on most endgame aspects (not on raiding, instanced pvp, dungeons), but only on the endgame in the open world, and they could have handled this much more player-friendly if they wanted to. But they don't want, and this is the problem. Everything else are just crappy reasons, smoke and mirrors, nothing more.

    Edit: They shove their content down our throats because people constantly have complained that "they have nothing to do". But they are hurting people that have never complained, like me, who also belong to the loyal customers which no sane company would like to upset. They should not have listened to the spoiled whiners who seem to have no life and can spend all their time with playing wow.

  5. #8585
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    While I think that the outcry about prolongued no-flying will be as massive as in WoD, if not even more (because in WoD, you did not have to do much in the world, but in Legion you will have to be there), I also think that having dungeon completion as a requirement for an outdoor feature is completely moronic.

    Pathfinder is not there to measure our open world completion, else it would only have open world content. It's there to prevent people to obtain flying for as long as possible, even if flying is enabled at some later point in the game. It's just like with Draenor pathfinder - even with the implementation of the achievement, people still had to complete new reputations, some of which were gated by the daily quest construct (or a hefty investment into medaillons, which have been quite expensive right after the launch of the Tanaan patch).

    This is not a good way to handle a feature which does not have any impact on most endgame aspects (not on raiding, instanced pvp, dungeons), but only on the endgame in the open world, and they could have handled this much more player-friendly if they wanted to. But they don't want, and this is the problem. Everything else are just crappy reasons, smoke and mirrors, nothing more.

    Edit: They shove their content down our throats because people constantly have complained that "they have nothing to do". But they are hurting people that have never complained, like me, who also belong to the loyal customers which no sane company would like to upset. They should not have listened to the spoiled whiners who seem to have no life and can spend all their time with playing wow.
    the main problem is that every zone to obtain the achievement require to do dungeon, this is not a problem for the other zones due to the dungeon being in the autolfg tool; suraman on the other hand not only require both only mythic dungeon but also the raid and i'm not sure if lfr kill count for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  6. #8586
    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    i hope that is the case. Im a Mythic raider, let the people like you stay grounded
    That doesn't bother me because I am not buying Legion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Honeyprime View Post
    So Blizzard has decided a Mythic dungeon or two is needed to unlock flying? I'm okay with Pathfinder, but to make that a requirement? No, just no. It will be awhile before I get flying in Legion. My time is so limited at the moment I haven't even been able to complete the pre patch Acheivs yet, let alone have time to run any kind of a dungeon. Probably wont even step foot in Legion for now and concentrate on alts and stuff for awhile. I really could use to work on getting my professions more filled out with recipes that I still need to farm up from old content. Still plenty of old world content and acheivs I want to work on as well.
    You have to turn over like 20k arcane mana, half way through Surarmar quest line and have rep with Nightfallen to have the opportunity to then try to do Arcway and Court of Starts in mythic to complete Legion patchfinder part 1 achievement.

    It is so convoluted and pointless it is not even funny anymore. I feel sorry for anyone that is going to walk into this meatgrinder in Legion without realizing what is going on!

  7. #8587
    well its a good thing that Blizz made broken Isles so easy to navigate without flight. There are TONS of flight paths, MANY more than in WOD. They also give us this cool little item that lets us call for a port to the nearest FM. I know on beta so far there isn't anywhere ive really gone that i needed to fly. The only thing flying would had done was helped me skip some mobs on the way

  8. #8588
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    the main problem is that every zone to obtain the achievement require to do dungeon, this is not a problem for the other zones due to the dungeon being in the autolfg tool; suraman on the other hand not only require both only mythic dungeon but also the raid and i'm not sure if lfr kill count for that.
    If the achievement would not require mythic versions of dungeons, it would be not a hassle for me, because I would do these anyway, and with LFD it should work out fine. But I cannot estimate the mythic dungeon gear requirements at the moment, nor my gear progress because of all this crappy RNG in loot (and professions probably being too cumbersome and slow to be a fast alternative).

    They just randomly fuck with their community. -.-

  9. #8589
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    While I think that the outcry about prolongued no-flying will be as massive as in WoD, if not even more (because in WoD, you did not have to do much in the world, but in Legion you will have to be there), I also think that having dungeon completion as a requirement for an outdoor feature is completely moronic.

    Pathfinder is not there to measure our open world completion, else it would only have open world content. It's there to prevent people to obtain flying for as long as possible, even if flying is enabled at some later point in the game. It's just like with Draenor pathfinder - even with the implementation of the achievement, people still had to complete new reputations, some of which were gated by the daily quest construct (or a hefty investment into medaillons, which have been quite expensive right after the launch of the Tanaan patch).

    This is not a good way to handle a feature which does not have any impact on most endgame aspects (not on raiding, instanced pvp, dungeons), but only on the endgame in the open world, and they could have handled this much more player-friendly if they wanted to. But they don't want, and this is the problem. Everything else are just crappy reasons, smoke and mirrors, nothing more.

    Edit: They shove their content down our throats because people constantly have complained that "they have nothing to do". But they are hurting people that have never complained, like me, who also belong to the loyal customers which no sane company would like to upset. They should not have listened to the spoiled whiners who seem to have no life and can spend all their time with playing wow.
    I honestly doubt the outcry will be as volatile or as large. For a number of reasons. Firstly the message is (psuedo) clear from the outset. Flying IS coming. There is no wondering whether or not we will see it. I think the outcry from before was incredibly strong because 1. We thought at first no flying was coming. 2. They said it was coming in patches that it never came in. 3. It came in a way that neither epic or particularly interesting even though they mentioned that perhaps it would be. That being said when we did get it, while I don't think people were exactly "happy" with it, it was enough for many.

    Another reason why I don't think it'll be as big a deal is that we have more ways, built into the questing and zones, that allows us to quickly travel from place to place. The reusable kite from high mountain, the grappling hooks in stormheim and the flight path whistle being among them. These things will take the sting out of a complete lack of flight for many.

    Your reasoning for pathfinder, at least in comparison to my own doesn't quite hold water. What purpose does just "withholding flying" serve? Just to fuck with the player base? To piss off a number (regardless of amount) of player/customers? That seems unlikely. The Draenor pathfinder achievement mirrored their declared reason for removing flying well enough to make sense, even if it was far from the best course of action.

    What is and is not player friendly is entirely subjective to the individual player. Personally I don't mind the pathfinder achievement system. It's not the best, and I feel like blizz could do muuuuuch better. That being said when I finally did achieve flying it felt all the better for the effort it took. Many don't feel that way, and that view is no less, and no more, valid.

    However I agree that flying doesn't affect end game instanced content (in any major way) and should absolutely NOT be tied to it. We don't know for sure yet if it will be. So my posts and tweets through their official channels have been to that effect. I will play devils advocate for a quick moment and point out that fishing, and gathering to play a an important role in raiding, and hence is affected by flying. I will also point out though that it's a far less impactful portion of the raiders experience than the player who lives in the open world. So much so that it's completely ridiculous to force those players into any instanced content so they can enjoy a feature that hardly affects instanced content.

  10. #8590
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    yea and peoples in this very thread have the gal to call it "middle ground" and a "compromise"



    well i don't expect flying unlocked in 7.1 since this patch seem more an improvised one than something they had already programmed i'm more inclined to think that pathfinder part 2 come out in 7.2 with maybe another rep to grind ad probably karazhan mythic and more as prerequisite.




    I ignored mythic dungeon and challange mode, i'm not interested in wasting 1 hour trying to find a group and another hour doing a dungeon; if other peoples like it they can run it as much as they want but ffs don't make mandatory to unlock flying.

    and no forming myself a group is the same i don't have nor the ability or the patience to guide a group inside a mythic dungeon.
    It is not a middle ground or a compromise. Actually being vague about the release of flying in Legion is identical to what happened in WoD.

  11. #8591
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    I honestly doubt the outcry will be as volatile or as large. For a number of reasons. Firstly the message is (psuedo) clear from the outset. Flying IS coming. There is no wondering whether or not we will see it. I think the outcry from before was incredibly strong because 1. We thought at first no flying was coming. 2. They said it was coming in patches that it never came in. 3. It came in a way that neither epic or particularly interesting even though they mentioned that perhaps it would be. That being said when we did get it, while I don't think people were exactly "happy" with it, it was enough for many.
    4. They've already driven away many of the people who were very vocal and/or enthusiastic about having flight.
    5. The clever bastards are making it sound like they're being reasonable this time around(even though flight still isn't back to what it was, nor are they being 100% forthcoming or transparent.

    I mean, think about it. We've gone from everyone assuming flight is there at level cap, to no flying ever again. Then back just a little, to flight at the end of the expansion, and now flight maybe halfway through the expansion, with an unknown amount of requirements and and unknown amount of content to use it on. And people are lauding Blizzard as being awesome for it. That's kind of scary.

  12. #8592
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    They can remove the daze by simply reducing the NPC leeshing so griefers can't run long trains on other players.
    Leatherworking makes an item preventing the daze while mounted.

  13. #8593
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    4. They've already driven away many of the people who were very vocal and/or enthusiastic about having flight.
    5. The clever bastards are making it sound like they're being reasonable this time around(even though flight still isn't back to what it was, nor are they being 100% forthcoming or transparent.

    I mean, think about it. We've gone from everyone assuming flight is there at level cap, to no flying ever again. Then back just a little, to flight at the end of the expansion, and now flight maybe halfway through the expansion, with an unknown amount of requirements and and unknown amount of content to use it on. And people are lauding Blizzard as being awesome for it. That's kind of scary.

    No it's not scary. Just because you don't agree or like their approach means it's scary for you, but as a objective fact, not so much. Their design vision for one aspect of the game can and has literally flipped 180 degrees from xpac to xpac. It's not rare, or even uncommon that they try something new, realize that it didn't fucking work then try to mitigate their mistakes. Those attempts at mitigation are often half measures as much as they are crazy about faces. This is an MMO with a CONSTANTLY changing face. WoW is particularly volatile among MMO's to boot. There is a rich record that exists showcasing all their design flip flopping. If anyone ever, EVER assumes something is going to be the same as it was in previous expansion then that person is being naive. As far as people lauding Blizzard for it, there are two kinds. We have to realize that WoD flying/no flying/eventually flying was just a period of experimentation and refinement. They aren't there yet, and even when they end up being 100% happy with it we may never be. But yes, I generally laud blizzard for trying new things, listening to player feedback and then changing things to better try and support that feed back (even if it isn't in the way that we wish). They aren't without fault though. I'll get into that in the below paragraph.

    Secondly the requirements aren't completely unknown. What we KNOW is also the bulk of what is required. We aren't completely in the dark. What we are in the dark about does bother me. We don't know what par 2 entails and whether or not it's reasonable, additionally the scuttle butt around it is far from positive. For me, this is the issue, at least the one that can realistically be addressed for this expansion right now. Flight at cap is just unrealistic. They didn't do when they were bleeding subs for WoD, they won't do it now. If anyone's expectations are beyond getting some clarification on when and how flying will be implemented (and even this is dubious) for Legion then they will be disappointed. Continuing to parrot themselves here over and over again won't change anything, at least for legion.

    As to your points.
    4. This is very likely true at this point. Can't/Won't disagree here.
    5. flight being back to what it was is only reasonable subjectively. Personally, not an issue for me. Not being flight at cap is perfectly reasonable for me. This obfuscation though I feel is very dishonest. At the very least if they have an actual plan that involves some cool stuff then at least say something along those lines. If they don't and they are having an internal debate or they don't know, say so and maybe even outline why. This complete silence on the matter is, in my eyes unacceptable.

  14. #8594
    Quote Originally Posted by Zolt5 View Post
    Leatherworking makes an item preventing the daze while mounted.
    I am aware of that and it will be a griefers paradise with that item.

  15. #8595
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    If the achievement would not require mythic versions of dungeons, it would be not a hassle for me, because I would do these anyway, and with LFD it should work out fine. But I cannot estimate the mythic dungeon gear requirements at the moment, nor my gear progress because of all this crappy RNG in loot (and professions probably being too cumbersome and slow to be a fast alternative).

    They just randomly fuck with their community. -.-
    well in a certain sense the fault is on the shoulder of the many players who always keep silent and never flood twitter/the forum etc protesting in an official manner; obviously blizzard is more keen to not trying to fuck us stealthy if they fear a huge fuss is raised on the forum, especially the us one who is the only one that have direct access to the devs.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  16. #8596
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    no originally they intend to gate even the class hall behind the mythic dungeons, that was changed but the pathfinder not, i don't know if this is intended or they may have not realized that inside the sub achievement of suraman there are those dungeons.
    On a side note inside the same achievement it's required to kill xavius that mean that lfr only player will complete it in october and i'm not even sure if the lfr kill will count toward that.
    Oversight or hoping players don't notice...Blizzard does what they want until players pushback. We have seen this movie before, so they will not change anything unless players push back regarding Legion patchfinder.

    As far as I know LFR Xavius will count as part of the achievement but a lot has changed the last month or so with builds so who knows?

    I will say those hoping to sub for a month and then quit are going to be surprised they will not be able to do that if Xavius is part of the Suramar achieve.

  17. #8597
    Just get rid of flying and problem solved!

    I'm looking forward to the expansion; no flying and all. I survived no flying in classic and WoD I'm sure I'll still manage to play the game without flying in Legion. But I'm an adult that doesn't let trivial things bother me, so there is that.

  18. #8598
    I am Murloc! Seramore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No, it is going because of you. See? I replied to your silly post and the thread goes on. Ironic innit?
    That's not irony, and not at all what my point was. Nice try though.

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  19. #8599
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    No it's not scary.
    I guess what I was referring to was how ready people are to leap to the defense of virtually anything Blizzard does, regardless of what it is. Even if people like no-flying and pathfinder, the way in which Blizzard is going about presenting and handling its implementation through WoD and into Legion is utter and complete garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    Secondly the requirements aren't completely unknown. What we KNOW is also the bulk of what is required. We aren't completely in the dark. What we are in the dark about does bother me. We don't know what par 2 entails and whether or not it's reasonable, additionally the scuttle butt around it is far from positive. For me, this is the issue, at least the one that can realistically be addressed for this expansion right now.
    I'm confused. You say we know the bulk of what is required, but then go on to say that what we don't know about part 2/3/4/etc could be virtually anything. All we have to go on is Blizzard's word that part 1 is most of it, and right now Blizzard's word is worth less than pocket lint when it comes to flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    As to your points.
    4. This is very likely true at this point. Can't/Won't disagree here.
    5. flight being back to what it was is only reasonable subjectively. Personally, not an issue for me. Not being flight at cap is perfectly reasonable for me. This obfuscation though I feel is very dishonest. At the very least if they have an actual plan that involves some cool stuff then at least say something along those lines. If they don't and they are having an internal debate or they don't know, say so and maybe even outline why. This complete silence on the matter is, in my eyes unacceptable.
    I listed flight at cap only as a point of reference. I'm of the opinion that a simple gold payment to unlock it is just as bad as pathfinder, in terms of cool-factor. As someone said earlier in the thread: They're missing a tremendous opportunity here, in terms of in-game lore, presentation, and player good-will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Just get rid of flying and problem solved!

    I'm looking forward to the expansion; no flying and all. I survived no flying in classic and WoD I'm sure I'll still manage to play the game without flying in Legion. But I'm an adult that doesn't let trivial things bother me, so there is that.
    Getting rid of flying is what created the problem in the first place. How does creating more of a problem solve it?

    Also, way to sling and underhanded implication that flying is not only trivial, but that people who want it aren't adults. Uhg....this is why we can't have nice things, I swear.

  20. #8600
    Well, at least skipping the second expansion in row is much easier that the first. It is sad we will never know how many people will quit because of repetition of this shit.

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