So, Everyone is going Fire at launch?

[Maxie]

You could just level as frost without putting AP in it.

[Deleted]

You could just level as frost without putting AP in it.

that would work as well.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I wouldn't put points into the Frost arti either, I would just level with it up until ~108, at that point I would change loot spec to Fire, to loot 2 fire relics so I have an optimal weapon. Beauty of fire is cauterizing blink, which you kind of take at the very start already anyway. Will just have to see. Try frost until 102, when I take fire, take it from there. Or vice versa

[Akraen]

I felt the need to inform you I will most certainly not be going fire.

<3

[Deleted]

Yeah, I wouldn't put points into the Frost arti either, I would just level with it up until ~108, at that point I would change loot spec to Fire, to loot 2 fire relics so I have an optimal weapon. Beauty of fire is cauterizing blink, which you kind of take at the very start already anyway. Will just have to see. Try frost until 102, when I take fire, take it from there. Or vice versa

cauterizing blink is overvalued, worth getting fast no doubt but getting phoenix reborn or pyretic incantion is more valuable coz the extra healing is minor and cold snap would give you more healing without the chance of getting hit while you heal.

[Rivellana]

I've had the same thought. I really would like to level frost and have some fun with Ebonchill. I've seen on the beta how artifact knowledge can help you catch up quicker on a 2nd artifact and if I need to swap over to fire for max level group content I feel like I can do that fairly easily. It's not as bad to catch up as I had feared, though it still is not as optimal as putting all AP into one. I can't help it though. I just love frost too much to let it go entirely. The internal debate goes on until launch. I have a few more days to poke and prod Frost and Fire on the beta to see how I personally do in terms of numbers.

I'm still really having that same internal debate, even though I asked my guild and was told they are big on "play what you like" and don't force people into specs. Even though I've taken time more than once to test myself on target dummies with both frost and fire and have seen that my own personal numbers are better for frost than for fire. I've had people tell me if you enjoy what you're playing you'll play it better. I just don't know.

How does the whole keeping the 2nd artifact relatively close work anyways? Do you just put skills into your main weapon until you hit that "exponential" point and then put them in the other? Do you put a few in the main and then put a few in the 2nd?

I think a lot of this is us just not trusting Blizzard to keep their word about balancing and keeping the other specs close to the top spec.

[Shangalar]

#notallmages... I will be playing Arcane as I have since level 10 whatever year that was. As always, if there is a big enough gap between specs for relevant content like guild wall bosses in heroic and all of Mythic, I will happily switch to Fire as my offspec purely for the benefit of my semi-casual guild.

[Deleted]

I'm still really having that same internal debate, even though I asked my guild and was told they are big on "play what you like" and don't force people into specs. Even though I've taken time more than once to test myself on target dummies with both frost and fire and have seen that my own personal numbers are better for frost than for fire. I've had people tell me if you enjoy what you're playing you'll play it better. I just don't know.

How does the whole keeping the 2nd artifact relatively close work anyways? Do you just put skills into your main weapon until you hit that "exponential" point and then put them in the other? Do you put a few in the main and then put a few in the 2nd?

I think a lot of this is us just not trusting Blizzard to keep their word about balancing and keeping the other specs close to the top spec.

There is only one big scaling point. Rest is kinda static increments, obviously in higher prices.

[ItachiZaku]

My mage has mostly been fire. His name/guild is the theme for it. Didn't really care about it being competitive, i had fun playing it.

[Reachie10]

I felt the need to inform you I will most certainly not be going fire.

<3

What will you be speccing?

[Deleted]

I would honestly say frost is probably the best for leveling. Take ebon chill and take fire at 102. 108+ take fire relics to get it up to date, profit and everything!

[Sills]

I'm still really having that same internal debate, even though I asked my guild and was told they are big on "play what you like" and don't force people into specs. Even though I've taken time more than once to test myself on target dummies with both frost and fire and have seen that my own personal numbers are better for frost than for fire. I've had people tell me if you enjoy what you're playing you'll play it better. I just don't know.

How does the whole keeping the 2nd artifact relatively close work anyways? Do you just put skills into your main weapon until you hit that "exponential" point and then put them in the other? Do you put a few in the main and then put a few in the 2nd?

I think a lot of this is us just not trusting Blizzard to keep their word about balancing and keeping the other specs close to the top spec.

My frost damage right now on live is higher than my fire as well. It's just because I've played frost all expansion so a lot of my gear is aimed at a frost spec so my secondary stats are all geared towards frost. I spent so many resources on enchants swapping between frost and fire, though while trying to decide what I wanted to do *facepalm*. Also, I'm sure the fact that I am just more comfortable with a frost play style ups my numbers on live at the moment. I am a mediocre fire mage at best right now on live lol. The part where you said "play what you like" is very important. I am also fortunate in that my guild holds that outlook as well. If everyone just played whatever was the "strongest and did the most damage" then this game would be nothing but rogues and fire mages. That's not interesting, and it's certainly not fun. We've actually kinda seen this on beta. Most people playing mage on the beta are running fire. It really doesn't feel good to see this kind of thing.

When it comes to keeping a second artifact, it's really just about deciding when you want to start putting points into a second weapon. The amount of artifact power required for points in your weapon will ramp up fairly significantly once you surpass point 13 (it goes from 1000 at 13 to approx. 6800 at 14 if memory serves). At this point I'll probably start dropping a few into Felo'melorn at least until I get one of the "super traits". That's AP that could go towards another trait in Ebonchill, but rather than working towards making Ebonchill 1-2% stronger, I can keep Felo'melorn fairly relevant as an insurance policy. This becomes more interesting with artifact knowledge, where it will increase the amount of artifact power you get. You can wait even longer to swap AP to a 2nd weapon for when you have a higher lvl of artifact knowledge (there's 25 lvls of knowledge if memory serves). This will allow you to put more AP into your 2nd weapon and therefore, zip through the first 13 traits faster on your 2nd weapon.

Running between 2 artifacts is not optimal of course. You are still splitting your AP between two weapons. One of the things we need to ask ourselves is, is keeping 2 artifacts (say, Ebonchill because we like frost, and Felo'melorn because fire does better in my case) worth losing a bit of progression on a single weapon. Basically, you are sacrificing a percentage point or two in order to have an insurance policy against frost being a weaker spec. I feel that unless you are pushing top tier progression in your guild (min-max and all that jazz), I really don't think the difference will be very substantial, and I really like having insurance.

[Rivellana]

Running between 2 artifacts is not optimal of course. You are still splitting your AP between two weapons. One of the things we need to ask ourselves is, is keeping 2 artifacts (say, Ebonchill because we like frost, and Felo'melorn because fire does better in my case) worth losing a bit of progression on a single weapon. Basically, you are sacrificing a percentage point or two in order to have an insurance policy against frost being a weaker spec. I feel that unless you are pushing top tier progression in your guild (min-max and all that jazz), I really don't think the difference will be very substantial, and I really like having insurance.

See, you make a good point. I'm not sure what to do with all that because I also plan on PvP'ing (casually) on the side when I'm not PvE'ing and plan to do so as frost. I believe artifact talents will work in PvP, and considering otherwise it's just a stat template for the most part, I wonder if I'd be gimping myself THERE by putting traits into fire and not frost at point 14 or what not.

Maybe I'm just super indecisive. Haha.

[Reachie10]

See, you make a good point. I'm not sure what to do with all that because I also plan on PvP'ing (casually) on the side when I'm not PvE'ing and plan to do so as frost. I believe artifact talents will work in PvP, and considering otherwise it's just a stat template for the most part, I wonder if I'd be gimping myself THERE by putting traits into fire and not frost at point 14 or what not.

Maybe I'm just super indecisive. Haha.

I am in the exact same boat. I like frost better then fire, the indecisiveness comes from raiding and DPS numbers. If frost is close to fire in terms of DPS, I will go frost 100%, but from everything I've been reading and this forum (you can see there is 15 fire threads for every 1 frost thread) - I don't want to be that guy in the raid, who plays his class to the fullest and is doing garbage damage.

At the end of the day, I will probably just end up going frost and hope they buff it to be on par or close to fire. Because at the end of the day, I feel like most of us just want to play what we enjoy, and right now, Frost is what I enjoy the most.

[Deleted]

Definitely not everyone is going fire. I would expect it to be around 65 fire 20 frost 15 arcane. They aren't as big disparities as forums might let you think. And if it ends up beiing too big of a difference, than you can expect buffs at the very longest month into expansion after first week of raids, possibly some minor changes even before that. If you don't enjoy a spec I'd not play it, because from my experience people just quit playing all together than unless they feel responsible for their guilds progress.

[Deleted]

I'm super undecicive myself. I've played frost since Pandaria and tested fire today in a mythic dungeon. I kinda like both specs though I've played fire from classic to Pandaria. I'd rather stay frost because you I feel better with it playing PvP (which I rarely do) and I can imagine it'd be better for questing to. On the other hand if fire would be much stronger in raids than frost I tend to go fire. I just don't know what to do...

[Deleted]

Also one thing which I would mention is that if you are planning to simply progress mythic+ which is much more casual friendly, than fire is simply the best mage spec, in raids it is much closer when you can always perform your best rotation.

[Sills]

See, you make a good point. I'm not sure what to do with all that because I also plan on PvP'ing (casually) on the side when I'm not PvE'ing and plan to do so as frost. I believe artifact talents will work in PvP, and considering otherwise it's just a stat template for the most part, I wonder if I'd be gimping myself THERE by putting traits into fire and not frost at point 14 or what not.

Maybe I'm just super indecisive. Haha.

Adding PvP to the mix takes a difficult decision and ramps it up to another level. I'm fortunate in that I don't PvP much at all and don't plan on doing any in Legion. I wish I could provide you some additional insights here, but I don't know anything about PvP in Legion and how our classes should be setup for it.

It's certainly not an issue of indecision. It's an important choice because of the artifact weapons. Even picking your traits is an important decision because not only do you need to decide which artifact to choose, but you also need to decide the order in which you unlock your "super traits" (is there a better term for them? I don't know what to call them :P) and the path you take to get there. There is a cost to respec your artifact if you decide to make changes. Refunding all artifact power and traits purchased costs 1 trait's worth of AP (your next trait's worth to be precise).

One thing is for sure: leveling, and playing with Legion will require more decisions than I think we've ever seen in the beginning of an expansion. There are no easy answers here. All we can do is discuss, experiment and make the best decisions that we can for our characters.

Also one thing which I would mention is that if you are planning to simply progress mythic+ which is much more casual friendly, than fire is simply the best mage spec, in raids it is much closer when you can always perform your best rotation.

There's no denying that fire looks to be the best mage spec in Legion right now. It simply does everything well and can perform better than frost in terms of numbers. The challenge is that my heart and the heart of many mages lies with frost (or arcane for that matter). It's the constant battle between the head (fire does better) versus the heart (I enjoy frost more) where the conflict arises.

This is why I don't think that keeping the fire artifact decent while progressing in Ebonchill is such a bad idea. If frost gets buffed/fire nerfed then we can continue as frost because the gap in the numbers will be narrowed. If nothing changes and fire continues to outperform frost (and/or arcane), then we have Felo'melorn decently leveled and ready to go.

[Deleted]

For pvp it's still fire, because spamming flame strikes is just so damn good with flame strike talent. Frost requires way too much casting even though it has much more freezes than before and arcane burst is just too hard to set up to compete. I expect change to frost mage PvP talents relatively soon. Not sure about arcane in pvp yet though.

[Rivellana]

For pvp it's still fire, because spamming flame strikes is just so damn good with flame strike talent. Frost requires way too much casting even though it has much more freezes than before and arcane burst is just too hard to set up to compete. I expect change to frost mage PvP talents relatively soon. Not sure about arcane in pvp yet though.

See, I've had people telling me that frost sucks right now even in legion pre-patch for PvP and it's easy to kill, but I've had fun with it and don't really seem to have an issue with staying alive or killing people (besides blink bugging out and leaving me right next to that melee I was attempting to blink away from...but that's a movement issue with a lot of classes right now). Are you telling me it's going to be even WORSE at 110 than now?