Stop making Horde and Orcs the bad guys

[Kalset]

Lady Dragonheart,

Please, do me a solid and identify just what heroism, courage and victory are to you. Were you to theoretically be in the Broken Shore battle, how would you lead if you were in charge and how would you follow if you were not?

It is so easy to criticize the actions of others in a high stress situation, but the question we each have to ask ourselves is; Would or could I do better?

I'm not saying that each of us shouldn't or wouldn't seek a difference path than that which was taken by the Horde and Alliance, but it is easy to call someone out for running from a battle and there is a difference between tactical retreat and true cowardice. Any commander worth his or her salt KNOWS that there is a time to fight and time to retreat. To say otherwise is folly.

[Jewsco]

If a white person blew up my home I wouldn't automatically condemn all white people.

If white people blew it up on the orders of the leader of the white people how would you feel then? The same white people you have been at war with. It wasn't done by a random Orc but under the orders of the leader of them all.

[Koreche]

OMG.. seriously. She has trusted the horde multiple times only to see them stab her in the back multiple times. The bombing of Theramore, using her own city against her to steal a bell to aid in the destruction of the Alliance, abandoning the alliance on the broken shore. Also people with PTSD have a symptom when they constantly relive whatever it was that happened to them. SO yeah, odds are she has breakdown's, nightmares that wake her up all the time soaked to the bone in her own sweat and tears. Its not saying a white person blew up my home, i hate all whites. She literally shows a list of example of where they aren't to be trusted and leaves. Also as I just stated, the mental and physical trauma she experienced from it isn't something that just goes away, it takes time. She'll start to recover and then the horde does some stupid shit again that brings up that memory or the fear/lack of trust. WHY can people not see this????

Ok so the bombing of theramore was garrosh who the horde and alliance dethroned.
The using of her city was also by garrosh.
Khadgar and the rest of the kirin tor got over it because they see it wasnt all the horde it was garrosh and his true horde agenda and there are worse things to worry about than the horde possibly having another garrosh rise to power.

Yes they abandoned the alliance on the broken shore and back stabbed jaina. You could see the look on her face when she saw the horde retreati.. oh wait she back stabbed the alliance and was not even present at the fight with gul'dan.

[Yourfired]

Orc called Eitrigg saved Tirion Fordring life. And Thrall saved the whole Azeroth. etc

He is one of the good orcs but you forget the one orc who damaged Sargeras in war of the ancients. Broxigar he was THE hero for me.(Alliance player and i deeply respect the honorable orcs not the garrosh orcs.)

[Derah]

What about it? Running away is still dishonorable, regardless of your reasons.

Wrong. That's they type of mentality that Garrosh wielded, look where it got him.

Sounding the retreat from a lost battle is not cowardice, its what separates true tacticians from poor leeroy jenkins wanna-be's

So what? You stand and fight when you're at war. That's what being Horde is, Lok'tar Ogar! Victory or Death!

Someone already quoted me where I elaborated what Lok'tar Ogar means. Victory or Death is applied to WARS, not BATTLES. It is possible to lose battles and still win wars.

Lok'tar Ogar simply means that the horde does not surrender, they don't negotiate, or parlay, or throw down their weapons, they fight until victory is achieved, or everyone dies. This does not mean that after a battle has been lost, everyone is gonna throw their life away like an idiot.

You seem to be under the impression that sounding the retreat means you're a coward. Tell me then, do you consider General George Washington a coward? He was defeated at several battles during the war of independence of the united states, and he had to sound the retreat multiple times. But he still won the war, because he fought smart. Once a battle is lost, you cut your losses, you don't expand them by wasting manpower on a fight that is already lost, that's what shitty generals do that ends up costing them the war.

To hammer this point home, I can name-drop you at least a dozen very famous and very renowned generals and master tacticians in history that had to retreat when they lost a battle, yet they still managed to win the war. Simon Bolivar, George Washington, Emilio Zapata, Bernard Montgomery, Caesar, and many others. Can you name me "renowned generals and master tacticians" that never retreated in any battle AND managed to win their respective wars? You can't. History doesn't remember them because they were epic failures as leaders.

Bringing this back to warcraft, the greatest general the horde ever had, Orgrim Doomhammer had to retreat on the battles that he lost, and yet he almost won the war, losing only because gul'dan backstabbed him. Even when losing the war, even when withdrawing from Lordaeron, the battlecry of the horde, Lok'Tar Ogar, was still maintained, the orcs refused to negotiate, refused to surrender, refused to parlay or sell out.

[Nemacyst]

Since you seem a bit stubborn with your concept of what retreat actually means I took a page from the history of the real world. Let me help you understand retreating is not always the easy choice.

You can read it or don't doesn't really matter since you have already made up your mind before reading the article

From History Channel
7 Brilliant Military Retreats


Retreating is rarely viewed as a good thing, but by extracting themselves from hopeless situations, many generals have saved their armies from destruction and lived to fight another day. Some even turned a tactical withdrawal into a partial victory. From George Washington’s nighttime flight from Brooklyn to Mao Zedong’s epic march across China, learn the stories behind seven of military history’s great escapes.

George Washington’s escape from New York


Less than two months after the July 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independence, General George Washington’s Continental Army was in a fight for its life. The Patriots had failed to check a British amphibious attack on Long Island, and following a disastrous defeat at the Battle of Brooklyn, some 9,000 Americans were pinned against the East River. While British General Sir William Howe settled in for a siege, Washington ordered his men to round up all the flat-bottomed boats they could find. As drenching rains fell on the night of August 29, he used his hastily assembled flotilla to silently ferry unit after unit across the river to the safety of Manhattan. The regiment of Massachusetts fishermen that manned the boats used rags to muffle the sound of their oars, and campfires were left burning to deceive the British.

Many Continentals had still yet to be evacuated from Brooklyn by sunrise, but luckily for Washington, a dense fog rolled in and masked the final stages of the withdrawal. By the time the British finally realized what was happening, all 9,000 colonists had slipped away along with most of their equipment and artillery. “In the history of warfare I do not recollect a more fortunate retreat,” Continental officer Benjamin Tallmadge later wrote.

The March of the Ten Thousand


The Ten Thousand were a band of Greek mercenaries hired by the Persian prince Cyrus the Younger to wage a civil war against his brother, King Artaxerxes II. The soldiers of fortune arrived near modern-day Baghdad in 401 B.C. and fought valiantly at the Battle of Cunaxa, but after Cyrus was killed, they were left stranded on enemy turf. The historian and soldier Xenophon later described their flight to safety in his legendary work “Anabasis.” Rather than turning on one another or surrendering, the gang of toughs elected new leaders and began an epic fighting retreat out of Persia, often doing battle by day and traveling by night. The 1,500-mile journey pitted them against bands of hostile natives and a bitterly cold winter, but after nine months of running they finally sighted the Black Sea to celebratory cries of “Thalatta! Thalatta!” (“The sea! The sea!”) Amazingly, more than three-quarters of the original mercenary army later returned home to Greece.

The Allied evacuation of Gallipoli


In April 1915, British, French, Australian and New Zealand forces launched an amphibious invasion of the Ottoman Empire via the Gallipoli Peninsula. Their landings were met with fierce resistance from Gallipoli’s Turkish defenders, and most of the Allied troops were unable to advance more than a few hundred yards past their beachheads. The campaign soon settled into a trench warfare stalemate. By the time the Allies finally began an evacuation in December 1915, they had suffered over 200,000 casualties.

The Gallipoli invasion had been one of World War I’s great blunders, but the retreat was a stroke of genius. As part of a multi-phase operation, troops were quietly ferried off the beaches right under the Turks’ noses. Extra tents and cooking fires were used to give the impression of larger numbers, and empty equipment boxes were left on the beach to convince the enemy that nothing had been removed. Near the end of the evacuation, some soldiers even covered their getaway with so-called “drip guns”—phantom rifles rigged with strings and water weights to make them fire automatically. The subterfuge worked to perfection. Despite early predictions that a retreat would cost them half their troops, the Allies escaped Gallipoli with only a handful of casualties.

The flight of the Nez Perce

In 1877, the United States government seized the ancestral lands of the Nez Perce Indians and ordered them to move to a reservation in Idaho. A band led by the charismatic Chief Joseph reluctantly complied, but after a group of disgruntled warriors killed several white settlers, the tribe found itself at war with the U.S. Army. What followed was one of the greatest fighting retreats in military history. Hoping to find sanctuary in Canada, the Nez Perce led their pursuers on a 1,400-mile chase across Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. Despite numbering just 700—only around 200 of whom were warriors—they outmaneuvered or defeated some 2,000 U.S. cavalrymen in multiple battles and skirmishes. General William Tecumseh Sherman later noted that the Indians “fought with almost scientific skill, using advance and rear guards, skirmish lines and field fortifications.” Finally, after 15 weeks on the run, the Nez Perce were cornered after October 1877’s Battle of Bear Paw and forcibly moved to a reservation. They were just 40 miles from the Canadian border. “My heart is sick and sad,” Chief Joseph said in a famous surrender speech. “From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.”

The Dunkirk evacuation


World War II’s “Miracle of Dunkirk” began on May 27, 1940, when the first of some 338,000 British, French and Belgian troops were evacuated from the French coast. The Allies had retreated to the sea a few days earlier after failing to block Germany’s blitzkrieg invasion of France and the Low Countries. They were cornered and facing imminent destruction, but when Adolf Hitler unwisely halted his Panzer tanks’ advance, the British Expeditionary Force was able to fortify the port of Dunkirk and initiate a frantic retreat codenamed “Operation Dynamo.”

As the Royal Air Force dueled with the Luftwaffe in the skies overhead, the British Admiralty cobbled together a fleet of over 900 Navy ships, merchant vessels, ferries, and paddle steamers and began transporting soldiers to the English mainland under heavy fire. Scores of civilians also chipped in by piloting fishing boats and pleasure craft across the heavily mined English Channel. The British initially feared it would only be possible to retrieve 45,000 men over the course of 48 hours, but the ragtag armada eventually spent nine days executing the largest sea evacuation in history. Allied losses were still sobering—many ships were sunk and some 40,000 men were left behind and captured—but those that escaped later played a crucial role in the continued fight against Nazi Germany.

The U.N. retreat from Chosin Reservoir


“Retreat, hell! We’re not retreating, we’re just advancing in a different direction.” That was how Major General Oliver P. Smith supposedly described the Korean War’s Battle of Chosin Reservoir, where a United Nations detachment made a 78-mile fighting withdrawal along a muddy mountain corridor. The force of U.S. Marines, Army troops and British Royal Marines had been ambushed and surrounded in late-November 1950 by a much larger Chinese army. Led by Smith’s 1st Marine Division, the allies broke out of the enemy encirclement and began a two-week trek to the seaport of Hungnam. Along with enduring arctic conditions—temperatures dropped to 34 degrees below zero—they also battled the Chinese at places like Hell Fire Valley and Funchilin Pass, where combat engineers famously assembled an airdropped bridge after the original one was destroyed. The veterans of the “frozen Chosin” later reached the evacuation point at Hungnam in mid-December. By then, the retreating U.N. army had suffered 17,000 casualties compared to a staggering 60,000 for the Chinese.

Mao Zedong’s “Long March”


The Chinese Communist Party owes its early survival to a retreat. The exodus began in October 1934, when the First Red Army became trapped at its base in Jiangxi Province by Nationalist forces under Chiang Kai-shek. Once the situation grew desperate, future party leader Mao Zedong and some 86,000 other Communists broke out of the encirclement and fled west. The early stages of their retreat were dogged by Nationalist ground attacks and bombings. Nearly half the Red Army was anhhililated in a matter of weeks, but the survivors continued the flight for a full year, braving starvation, disease and perilous mountain crossings before finally arriving at new headquarters in the northern province of Shaanxi. Mao elbowed his way into power during the journey, and he later used the legend of the “Long March” to cement his position and recruit scores of Chinese to the Communist cause. Historians still debate certain aspects of the ordeal, but there’s no doubt it was brutal. According to some estimates, nine out of every 10 people who began the retreat perished along the way.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Wrong. That's they type of mentality that Garrosh wielded, look where it got him.

Sounding the retreat from a lost battle is not cowardice, its what separates true tacticians from poor leeroy jenkins wanna-be's

Do you have proof of this? Fleeing from battle is one of the utmost cowardice in the majority of cultures, both in reality and in-game.

Someone already quoted me where I elaborated what Lok'tar Ogar means. Victory or Death is applied to WARS, not BATTLES. It is possible to lose battles and still win wars.

Lok'tar Ogar simply means that the horde does not surrender, they don't negotiate, or parlay, or throw down their weapons, they fight until victory is achieved, or everyone dies. This does not mean that after a battle has been lost, everyone is gonna throw their life away like an idiot.

Where, shall we say, are you getting this from, other than your own opinion of the phrase?

You seem to be under the impression that sounding the retreat means you're a coward. Tell me then, do you consider General George Washington a coward? He was defeated at several battles during the war of independence of the united states, and he had to sound the retreat multiple times. But he still won the war, because he fought smart. Once a battle is lost, you cut your losses, you don't expand them by wasting manpower on a fight that is already lost, that's what shitty generals do that ends up costing them the war.

Absolutely, anyone that flees is a coward. That is the definition of cowardice, fleeing from a fight when opposed. You can try and scavenge your honor beyond that by reforming and making a second attempt at your opponent. However, until that time it is dishonorable to flee a battlefield, no matter the excuse.

To hammer this point home, I can name-drop you at least a dozen very famous and very renowned generals and master tacticians in history that had to retreat when they lost a battle, yet they still managed to win the war. Simon Bolivar, George Washington, Emilio Zapata, Bernard Montgomery, Caesar, and many others. Can you name me "renowned generals and master tacticians" that never retreated in any battle AND managed to win their respective wars? You can't. History doesn't remember them because they were epic failures as leaders.

You can name anyone you want, it doesn't change the fact that they ran away from battle. A fact is a fact, they ran; therefore, they're cowards with no honor. It is really that simple. You can make excuses of saving lives or not, it's still running away which is cowardly. You can come back the next time and win by a landslide, but your initial action to flee is still dishonorable and cowardly, you've merely salvaged your honor by coming back to the battle. So, it still happens, denying it won't help the matter, that is why defeat is so bitter if you're a survivor.

Bringing this back to warcraft, the greatest general the horde ever had, Orgrim Doomhammer had to retreat on the battles that he lost, and yet he almost won the war, losing only because gul'dan backstabbed him. Even when losing the war, even when withdrawing from Lordaeron, the battlecry of the horde, Lok'Tar Ogar, was still maintained, the orcs refused to negotiate, refused to surrender, refused to parlay or sell out.

Again, fleeing is cowardice. You can attempt to excuse it with "reasons" but it still happened and you still have to "prove" to others that you had a valid reason to flee. If fleeing wasn't cowardice, it wouldn't need excuses to make it not sound dishonorable.

- - - Updated - - -

Since you seem a bit stubborn with your concept of what retreat actually means I took a page from the history of the real world. Let me help you understand retreating is not always the easy choice.

You can read it or don't doesn't really matter since you have already made up your mind before reading the article

From History Channel
7 Brilliant Military Retreats


Retreating is rarely viewed as a good thing, but by extracting themselves from hopeless situations, many generals have saved their armies from destruction and lived to fight another day. Some even turned a tactical withdrawal into a partial victory. From George Washington’s nighttime flight from Brooklyn to Mao Zedong’s epic march across China, learn the stories behind seven of military history’s great escapes.

George Washington’s escape from New York


Less than two months after the July 1776 signing of the Declaration of Independence, General George Washington’s Continental Army was in a fight for its life. The Patriots had failed to check a British amphibious attack on Long Island, and following a disastrous defeat at the Battle of Brooklyn, some 9,000 Americans were pinned against the East River. While British General Sir William Howe settled in for a siege, Washington ordered his men to round up all the flat-bottomed boats they could find. As drenching rains fell on the night of August 29, he used his hastily assembled flotilla to silently ferry unit after unit across the river to the safety of Manhattan. The regiment of Massachusetts fishermen that manned the boats used rags to muffle the sound of their oars, and campfires were left burning to deceive the British.

Many Continentals had still yet to be evacuated from Brooklyn by sunrise, but luckily for Washington, a dense fog rolled in and masked the final stages of the withdrawal. By the time the British finally realized what was happening, all 9,000 colonists had slipped away along with most of their equipment and artillery. “In the history of warfare I do not recollect a more fortunate retreat,” Continental officer Benjamin Tallmadge later wrote.

The March of the Ten Thousand


The Ten Thousand were a band of Greek mercenaries hired by the Persian prince Cyrus the Younger to wage a civil war against his brother, King Artaxerxes II. The soldiers of fortune arrived near modern-day Baghdad in 401 B.C. and fought valiantly at the Battle of Cunaxa, but after Cyrus was killed, they were left stranded on enemy turf. The historian and soldier Xenophon later described their flight to safety in his legendary work “Anabasis.” Rather than turning on one another or surrendering, the gang of toughs elected new leaders and began an epic fighting retreat out of Persia, often doing battle by day and traveling by night. The 1,500-mile journey pitted them against bands of hostile natives and a bitterly cold winter, but after nine months of running they finally sighted the Black Sea to celebratory cries of “Thalatta! Thalatta!” (“The sea! The sea!”) Amazingly, more than three-quarters of the original mercenary army later returned home to Greece.

The Allied evacuation of Gallipoli


In April 1915, British, French, Australian and New Zealand forces launched an amphibious invasion of the Ottoman Empire via the Gallipoli Peninsula. Their landings were met with fierce resistance from Gallipoli’s Turkish defenders, and most of the Allied troops were unable to advance more than a few hundred yards past their beachheads. The campaign soon settled into a trench warfare stalemate. By the time the Allies finally began an evacuation in December 1915, they had suffered over 200,000 casualties.

The Gallipoli invasion had been one of World War I’s great blunders, but the retreat was a stroke of genius. As part of a multi-phase operation, troops were quietly ferried off the beaches right under the Turks’ noses. Extra tents and cooking fires were used to give the impression of larger numbers, and empty equipment boxes were left on the beach to convince the enemy that nothing had been removed. Near the end of the evacuation, some soldiers even covered their getaway with so-called “drip guns”—phantom rifles rigged with strings and water weights to make them fire automatically. The subterfuge worked to perfection. Despite early predictions that a retreat would cost them half their troops, the Allies escaped Gallipoli with only a handful of casualties.

The flight of the Nez Perce

In 1877, the United States government seized the ancestral lands of the Nez Perce Indians and ordered them to move to a reservation in Idaho. A band led by the charismatic Chief Joseph reluctantly complied, but after a group of disgruntled warriors killed several white settlers, the tribe found itself at war with the U.S. Army. What followed was one of the greatest fighting retreats in military history. Hoping to find sanctuary in Canada, the Nez Perce led their pursuers on a 1,400-mile chase across Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. Despite numbering just 700—only around 200 of whom were warriors—they outmaneuvered or defeated some 2,000 U.S. cavalrymen in multiple battles and skirmishes. General William Tecumseh Sherman later noted that the Indians “fought with almost scientific skill, using advance and rear guards, skirmish lines and field fortifications.” Finally, after 15 weeks on the run, the Nez Perce were cornered after October 1877’s Battle of Bear Paw and forcibly moved to a reservation. They were just 40 miles from the Canadian border. “My heart is sick and sad,” Chief Joseph said in a famous surrender speech. “From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.”

The Dunkirk evacuation


World War II’s “Miracle of Dunkirk” began on May 27, 1940, when the first of some 338,000 British, French and Belgian troops were evacuated from the French coast. The Allies had retreated to the sea a few days earlier after failing to block Germany’s blitzkrieg invasion of France and the Low Countries. They were cornered and facing imminent destruction, but when Adolf Hitler unwisely halted his Panzer tanks’ advance, the British Expeditionary Force was able to fortify the port of Dunkirk and initiate a frantic retreat codenamed “Operation Dynamo.”

As the Royal Air Force dueled with the Luftwaffe in the skies overhead, the British Admiralty cobbled together a fleet of over 900 Navy ships, merchant vessels, ferries, and paddle steamers and began transporting soldiers to the English mainland under heavy fire. Scores of civilians also chipped in by piloting fishing boats and pleasure craft across the heavily mined English Channel. The British initially feared it would only be possible to retrieve 45,000 men over the course of 48 hours, but the ragtag armada eventually spent nine days executing the largest sea evacuation in history. Allied losses were still sobering—many ships were sunk and some 40,000 men were left behind and captured—but those that escaped later played a crucial role in the continued fight against Nazi Germany.

The U.N. retreat from Chosin Reservoir


“Retreat, hell! We’re not retreating, we’re just advancing in a different direction.” That was how Major General Oliver P. Smith supposedly described the Korean War’s Battle of Chosin Reservoir, where a United Nations detachment made a 78-mile fighting withdrawal along a muddy mountain corridor. The force of U.S. Marines, Army troops and British Royal Marines had been ambushed and surrounded in late-November 1950 by a much larger Chinese army. Led by Smith’s 1st Marine Division, the allies broke out of the enemy encirclement and began a two-week trek to the seaport of Hungnam. Along with enduring arctic conditions—temperatures dropped to 34 degrees below zero—they also battled the Chinese at places like Hell Fire Valley and Funchilin Pass, where combat engineers famously assembled an airdropped bridge after the original one was destroyed. The veterans of the “frozen Chosin” later reached the evacuation point at Hungnam in mid-December. By then, the retreating U.N. army had suffered 17,000 casualties compared to a staggering 60,000 for the Chinese.

Mao Zedong’s “Long March”


The Chinese Communist Party owes its early survival to a retreat. The exodus began in October 1934, when the First Red Army became trapped at its base in Jiangxi Province by Nationalist forces under Chiang Kai-shek. Once the situation grew desperate, future party leader Mao Zedong and some 86,000 other Communists broke out of the encirclement and fled west. The early stages of their retreat were dogged by Nationalist ground attacks and bombings. Nearly half the Red Army was anhhililated in a matter of weeks, but the survivors continued the flight for a full year, braving starvation, disease and perilous mountain crossings before finally arriving at new headquarters in the northern province of Shaanxi. Mao elbowed his way into power during the journey, and he later used the legend of the “Long March” to cement his position and recruit scores of Chinese to the Communist cause. Historians still debate certain aspects of the ordeal, but there’s no doubt it was brutal. According to some estimates, nine out of every 10 people who began the retreat perished along the way.

They can be as ingenious as ever. They're still cowardly retreats. A retreat is cowardly, no matter the reasoning behind it. That's like saying backstabbing your opponent is an honorable way to win a war. Or, in Warcraft terms: Thrall cheated to beat Garrosh, but Thrall is still the hero even through he disgraced the field of battle.

The difference is: does war mean winning through any means necessary or should there be a code of honorable combat, having the best side win honorably. Some favor one side, others favor the other. It all matters if you're an honorable combatant or not.

[Zeek Daniels]

LoL so the OP wants us to fight Humans and Undead again instead of Orcs Draenei and demons. It literally doesnt matter who we fight theres always going to be a faction represented among the enemy. Look at Legion. Night Hold is us fighting against Night Elfs, and the Emerald nightmare is us fighting against night elf druids and corrupted green drakes. I love the night elfs but im not against killing my own people. Its part of the story. Deal with it.

TLDR. The races we play as are not the only people of that race on Azeroth. All night elfs dont live in Darnassus, All Orcs dont live in Oggrimmar, All Trolls dont live in that island off the coast of Durotar. Theres other troll tribes you just represent the tribe Zuljin leads. You just represent a certain Orc clan lead by thrall. The nightelfs are just the ones who stayed in Darn and were not exiled. The Humans in Stormwind are just the ones from that Area not including the other kingdoms.

The enemies we fight are not the same as us. Even Garrosh didnt come from azeroth. He was brought from outland, so hes not even one of you orcs he just joined in.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Where are you pulling this from, other than your own personal opinions on what is and isn't cowardly?

I'm still waiting for you to answer the very same question, actually.

[DarthMonk79]

Ok so the bombing of theramore was garrosh who the horde and alliance dethroned.
The using of her city was also by garrosh.
Khadgar and the rest of the kirin tor got over it because they see it wasnt all the horde it was garrosh and his true horde agenda and there are worse things to worry about than the horde possibly having another garrosh rise to power.

Yes they abandoned the alliance on the broken shore and back stabbed jaina. You could see the look on her face when she saw the horde retreati.. oh wait she back stabbed the alliance and was not even present at the fight with gul'dan.

sigh... why can you not see it from her view. You are seeing it from your view and the big picture. She suffered a tremendous loss. Khadgar and the Kirin Tor did not, the other NPC's did not, we did not. SHE DID!!! And its been recently, twice, now a third time with them leaving. I understand there I bigger threats and things to worry about. You, me, them, everyone did not experience what she did and you expect everybody and her character to just shrug it off as a "my bad" by Garrosh and not the Horde. Give her time to come around, a few years at the most in not enough time to come back from everything that's happened to her. It was probably the final straw that broke the camels back and she's not all right in the head, yet you're thinking she's alright and all hearts and rainbows on the inside. I've all ready listed plenty of reason as to why she would react the way she is. Yet you keep coming back with the stupid arguments....

[Lady Dragonheart]

Personal experience, from being deployed. Your turn.

Historical studies of Greek and Viking history and mythology. Also personal experience from being an army brat to a person that was high up in the US Army for good while.

Many of which cases of fleeing the battlefield being (essentially) treasonous, even if it earns a later victory. Some of which ease the punishments of fleeing the battlefield, but if fleeing the battlefield wasn't a disgraceful and dishonorable act, it wouldn't be punishable, even if the outcome was lucrative. The greater good is still a punishable act, by law.

[Smauldy]

Orcs have a tendency even without their curse to turn to intense bloodlust at any moment. The Broken Front in Icecrown is a perfect example, as is Garrosh and anyone who followed him. It's just their nature.

[Lady Dragonheart]

You're confusing fleeing and retreating. Retreating is not the same as someone fleeing from the battle, which many Armies did find cowardly and punishable by treason or even death. Even the Vikings retreated in battles, particularly when they raided England and Paris - they new when to retreat and come back.

Even the most successful retreats have been met with punishment.

Also, when it came to Vikings, most were pillagers, occupying the places that they raided wasn't the point of raiding. Also, losing and trying to flee or retreat for a more advantageous position was cause for mutiny in their culture which often ended in proving your decision with a bout to the death of those that condemned you to cowardice.

Also, mythology really has no place in this discussion, and neither does your experience as an Army Brat - I was too. Until you've experienced it yourself, you just have no clue what it's like.

You're forgetting that this game is entirely based on such mythologies and is less like real life than actual mythology.

Also, I have been in war and have seen officers court-marshaled for pulling troops from the field to get an advantageous position later. Ingenious as those were, they went against the rules of engagement, and were punished for essentially "winning." You should know better than anyone else, then, that disobeying the rules of engagement is a big no-no.

My questioning younger self disagreed with such mannerism, but I learned from their mistakes and now I understand the truer nature of military organizations. You do as you're told, even if it is a suicide mission. Obeying your superior is paramount to everything else, even if you disobey them and "win" your battle because of it. It's still dishonorable and you have "seek" favor by convincing others that retreating or fleeing is a legitimate excuse for the outcome.

Don't get me wrong, though. I don't like it. However, I understand it. That is the point that I'm making. You can not like it as much as you want, that doesn't change the truth of the matter that you have to prove yourself after your retreat/fleeing. If it wasn't the case, then I'd be more likely to take your side of the argument.

[Sylfaine]

Can someone make Lady Dragonheart shut the hell up already ? Its just pointless.

[MacMathan]

But um... the Horde ARE the bad guys. Just sayin'....

Sorry if that bit of truth had escaped your notice before.

The only completely non-evil race as far as i can tell are the Tauren, and they only joined out of necessity. The Undead/forsaken are completely evil with no redeeming qualities at all and I am surprised anyone tolerates them being part of any faction. The Orcs are mostly evil, sorry but there are a few good ones here and there. The Trolls and the Belfs are a mix of good and evil, leaning toward evil. The poor pandas just made a bad life choice and ended up on the wrong side.

Not saying the Alliance is pristine and pure goodness by any means. But the Horde are the bad guys.

[Florena]

vol'jin died saving his faction and all of azeroth. Varian died, because he chose to, and didn't save a single person. only varian died for nothing. Saying any different is nothing but a lie.

Varian saved everyone on that gun ship Alliance PC included. Otherwise the big demon would have taken it down.

[Triceratrozer]

Factions were a mistake.

[Lady Dragonheart]

First you were an Army Brat, now you've been to war? That's a hell of a jump... what war were you in? I only ask, because you're pretty open about your life and family troubles on here, and I recall you mentioning all your previous occupations, and it didn't include you being Military or a Military Brat, for that matter. I mean, unless you're saying you were a civilian (bystander while war was happening around you). In which case, I'm curious which war this was.

You do know that you can take your family with you overseas, right? My father did that to us. Once, specifically.

[Oneirophobia]

Orcs are literally the worst. The rest of the Horde range from perfectly fine to so-so, the Forsaken even pale in comparison to the frigging Orcs.

I play both Horde and Alliance, and for years I was an Orc apologist.

I get it, y'all were corrupted by demons. It happens. You're sorry. You're a funny shade of green forever for it. There are plenty of Night Elves and even Draenei who are fell for the Legion and are corrupted as well. I understood that. I forgave you for that.

Then Garrosh happened in MoP. Got a little less understanding. You turned on your allies. You turned family on family and friend on friend. An absolutely colossal number of Orcs shit all over the Horde to be "pure." Perhaps it was the Sha, though, maybe I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

AND THEN WE COME TO WOD. Holy fuck did I ever give up on the Orcs then. An absolutely enormous number of Orcs (who are completely uncorrupted!) decided to go on a genocidal rampage against the Draenei on Draenor (not to mention an entire other planet they know nothing about except from the opinions of one unhinged lunatic) because some fuckhead showed up out of the blue and said so. Draenei who had, until you started murdering them, been completely amicable towards you and even worked with you (Velen and Nerzhul) for the betterment of both your races. Hell, some of the Draenei even tried to save you and convince you along the way.

THEN, after everything you did in WoD, even after learning that the demons were very very bad, MOST OF YOU DRANK THE DEMON BLOOD IN THE END ANYWAY. Knowing it was bad! Are you fucking serious? What is WRONG with your race?!

And the rest of the Azerothonians are just supposed to accept you? That the OG Orcs who showed up and shit all over everything repeatedly, murdered their friends for Garrosh etc, are somehow different from the Iron Horde? knowing any second your awful race could snap and turn on us the moment one of your leaders gets a little ambitious? Knowing full well its not ANY sort of corruption that fuels your idiocy, its just flat out your nature?

Yeah no thanks, Sylvanas and the rest of the Horde should station elite guards around Ogrimmar and all Orc settlements like they did during Wrathgate to the Undercity, and properly vassalize the Orcs.

An Orc named Koramar once said, "Blood and Honor, Zogosh, its all Orcs understand." Well you had your chance at honor a thousand times over, its time for blood.




....On the whole, I still believe 98% of the conflict between Horde and Alliance is poorly constructed and forced nonsense (especially the broken shore, literally anybody can see the fight was lost on both sides, Varian did what he had to to save the rest of the Alliance, and Sylvanas did what she had to do save whats left of the Horde), but the Orcs are just total shitbags. Fuck 'em.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Oh, I'm well aware, I also had a father in the Army and lived over-seas, however, how does that relate to you being in a war and being on the battlefield? How was a kid able to see a Soldier being court-marshaled? You wouldn't be allowed to see those proceedings. You only know what your father disclosed to you.

Oh come on, soldiers gossip worse than highschoolers on base, you should know this if you were actually deployed.