Does exclusivity make a better game? Gating content

[Pantalaimon]

Should be a gap between hardcore raiders/pvpers and the more casual players where the latter will have mostly blue gear but some epics here and there like in TBC. TBC nailed it imo.

Rose tinted glasses right there. TBC invented welfare epics for later expacs to follow. Later in the expansion you could farm AV to get epic season 2 (iirc) epic pvp sets that looked almost exactly like the raid counterparts for that tier of raiding. Valor & badge gear also provided you with gear that was akin to Tier 6 gear for some of your armor slots (non tier pieces of course).

[Osmeric]

Rose tinted glasses right there. TBC invented welfare epics for later expacs to follow. Later in the expansion you could farm AV to get epic season 2 (iirc) epic pvp sets that looked almost exactly like the raid counterparts for that tier of raiding. Valor & badge gear also provided you with gear that was akin to Tier 6 gear for some of your armor slots (non tier pieces of course).

And arena was very easy to farm for gear -- just lose ten games and reform your arena team the next week to reset its rating. Only late in the expansion did rating requirements start to be added to some slots (shoulders, was there another?)

The reaction by the devs to that in Wrath was (at the start) to add rating requirement for everything, even honor gear, except honor librams. This failed spectacularly as PvP participation collapsed. I expect PvP participation will also collapse in Legion, where without ratings you won't get much in the way of gear.

[ShiyoKozuki]

And yet blizzard has the number 1 subbed MMO and most profit MMO in the world ever.....

Clearly they don't know what they are doing and clearly casuals can just walk into Mythic Raiding and steam roll it.

Sometimes I wonder if people like you think before you speak.

popular =/= good.

Slow down on sharing your opinions please.

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I'm fine with exclusive content so long as you're not punished too severely for not being in a raiding guild or for not having a high enough item level that strangers "allow" you to do it, in so far as being able to see the "important bits" goes.

Those are only problems WHEN every thing is very accessible and easy. They become expected. The more accessible the game becomes, the harder it actually gets for casuals to "catch up" - it's why catch up mechanics are a failure of design that contradicts and causes more harm than good.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Actually the reason I went hardcore raiding was that this statement is false. I gained a lot more free time by raiding hardcore than by being in a so so guild that progressed.
The time invested in raiding went down about 4x. Sure you need a month or two of serious time investment (5 sometimes 6 evenings of 5 hours) but after that it's 5 hours/week. And this is manageable with a job and social life, for some even with a significant other.

I'm a complete casual now but that's because I have no more control over my free time anymore but would still do hardcore raiding if I had some control back (instead of a more laid back guild).

Maybe I didn't express my thoughts well. What I meant was, when a raid is current content, it's not hard to find other players familiar with the fights. In TW dungeons, only a small % of players remember the fights, and that results in a bit of a handicap. Not insurmountable by any means, but certainly more challenging than when everyone was running them daily or at least weekly. I'm sure it would be the same for TW raids.

[Sansnom]

Those are only problems WHEN every thing is very accessible and easy. They become expected. The more accessible the game becomes, the harder it actually gets for casuals to "catch up" - it's why catch up mechanics are a failure of design that contradicts and causes more harm than good.

That is your opinion. I like hear your justification of it. If it is such a failure, what are the alternatives?

[Raelbo]

these challenges are only impossible if you lack a spine or remote intellect.

You mean like actually debating the argument instead of just flat out insulting the player?

[Osmeric]

You mean like making debating the argument instead of just flat out insulting the player?

They cannot stand that those players have made Blizzard conclude easy = profitable, so they try to drive them away. It's precious.

It's especially adorable that they think they can still have a AAA MMO without those players paying.

[ShiyoKozuki]

That is your opinion. I like hear your justification of it. If it is such a failure, what are the alternatives?

Have you played WOW since vanilla? It's as obvious as the sky is blue.

[Sansnom]

Have you played WOW since vanilla? It's as obvious as the sky is blue.

Why don't you answer rather than resorting to rhetorical comment. Is the lack of answer is because you do not have one?

[Deleted]

I think they should actually make super-difficult gates for mythic raids ONLY. Something like the BC system, requiring you to jump through all kinds of hoops and follow a three page flow chart. That ought to destroy the special snowflake syndrome for an x-pac or two. "We can't run because two people quit. Our new recruits need 2+ resets before they can join us." I think that will be enough to dampen enthusiasm for this idea once more.

Mind you, I'm very positive towards special snowflake and mythic raids in general. Kudos to you, mythic raiders. I respect skill greatly. You deserve your better gear and mounts. But complex attunement gates were just a bad idea and it seems like the only people who want them back are mostly mythic raiders. So let them deal with them. And let them remember why the were such a terrible idea.

If only mythic raiders want back gated content, then why does this poll seems to indicate that other players also like some exclusitivity? To have some content to look forward to as u cant unlock it immeiately.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Why don't you answer rather than resorting to rhetorical comment. Is the lack of answer is because you do not have one?

Alright, let's use the legendary ring as an example. Back in the day legendaries were rare, very few people had them(about 1-3 per server ). It wasn't accessible, you were not expected to have it.

Now the ring comes along, nearly everyone has it. It's VERY accessible - you can solo the entire quest(queuing up for lfr can be done solo). Now most people have it. It becomes expected of you as a player to have it for guild recruitment, then eventually PUG groups. This now adds a new barrier for a new player or a returning player joining late - they're now expected to have this ring.

Thus, by making something more accessible(legendaries) they've actually made the game in itself less accessible as that item type that wasn't accessible is now so easily obtainable; it's added a gate(attunement) for new and returning players to be able to join guilds and pug content.

It's had the complete opposite of it's intended effect, and only made the game worse for new and returning players.

[Deleted]

They cannot stand that those players have made Blizzard conclude easy = profitable, so they try to drive them away. It's precious.

It's especially adorable that they think they can still have a AAA MMO without those players paying.

Casuals could have endless content just not one raid in LFR difficulty.
Would be nice if every patch we had 2 raids and only one of them would be in LFR.

Bah, who am i kiding? I think i am never going to enter a raid from now on because the old feeling is totally gone.
I have a transmog that i don't want to change.
The raids are not exclusive.
I can have the same item level outside raids.

I think i realized just now that i will never love raiding ever again in my life. Damm...

We are in too deep to go back:
-We are all already beatiful with transmogs
-LFR is never going to go away (that's for sure)

The snowflake factor is totally gone. We are all rich, there is no social division. We are all a big happy family living in paradise.
This would be great in real life but in a game is just no fun for me.

tl;dr: I think i will never raid again because the snowflake experiece is gone. Am i a bad person? lol

[Deleted]

Casuals could have endless content just not one raid in LFR difficulty.
Would be nice if every patch we had 2 raids and only one of them would be in LFR.

Bah, who am i kiding? I think i am never going to enter a raid from now on because the old feeling is totally gone.
I have a transmog that i don't want to change.
The raids are not exclusive.
I can have the same item level outside raids.

I think i realized just now that i will never love raiding ever again in my life. Damm...

We are in too deep to go back:
-We are all already beatiful with transmogs
-LFR is never going to go away (that's for sure)

The snowflake factor is totally gone. We are all rich, there is no social division. We are all a big happy family living in paradise.
This would be great in real life but in a game is just no fun for me.

tl;dr: I think i will never raid again because the snowflake experiece is gone. Am i a bad person? lol

Well, in my eyes you are a bad person. If you want to deny others their fun, so you can have yours, you are a bad person.

[Deleted]

Well, in my eyes you are a bad person. If you want to deny others their fun, so you can have yours, you are a bad person.

But...it's like league of legends, "the quest for rank Gold".
I'm still trying to this day to reach rank Gold and that's what is giving me the motivation to play the game everyday.

Do i feel like shit? Yes. But if i eventually reach it, it will be a very epic experience and if i look back i will say....damm that was an epic quest.

I believe that for one person to feel good he/she must first feel bad. That's some philosophical shit but i think its human nature.

It's not more about "the others not having", it's more about a personal quest for greatness. But for that quest to happen there is the side effect of making a lot of people without something.
Maybe it's a little selfish but without exclusive content there is no epic quest.

[Osmeric]

Casuals could have endless content just not one raid in LFR difficulty.
Would be nice if every patch we had 2 raids and only one of them would be in LFR.

Bah, who am i kiding? I think i am never going to enter a raid from now on because the old feeling is totally gone.

You want something it isn't worthwhile for Blizzard to provide. Blizzard knows full well that some diehardcores like yourself will leave, and they have written them off. They are not sufficiently lucrative to be catered to.

tl;dr: I think i will never raid again because the snowflake experiece is gone. Am i a bad person? lol

You are a person who thinks your personal desires matter to anyone but yourself. That doesn't make you bad, just selfish and narcissistic.

[Deleted]

You want something it isn't worthwhile for Blizzard to provide. Blizzard knows full well that some diehardcores like yourself will leave, and they have written them off. They are not sufficiently lucrative to be catered to.

You are a person who thinks your personal desires matter to anyone but yourself. That doesn't make you bad, just selfish and narcissistic.

I can't be the only one who likes being treated like dirt to improve myself.
Like those sport coaches that keep saying you are a maggot and a worthless piece of dirt.

This would be my favorite coach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5meLgJw6Po&t=0m42s

I need to feel that i am bad to motivate me to be good. I don't think thats strange.

[Eurhetemec]

I can't be the only one who likes being treated like dirt to improve myself.
Like those sport coaches that keep saying you are a maggot and a worthless piece of dirt.

This would be my favorite coach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5meLgJw6Po&t=0m42s

I need to feel that i am bad to motivate me to be good. I don't think thats strange.

You might not think it's strange, but it's not actually an effective method of motivation at all, and for a lot of people, especially those performing an activity as a leisure activity, rather than a life-goal (sports people are not comparable to anything but pro or wanna-be pro WoW players, in mindset - and no unless you seriously want to play WoW as your job, that is not you), is extremely unhelpful.

The whole methodology of "You worthless maggots..." is actually only the first part of a training regime used by professional sports and armies. No-one continually does it, because it's not a motivational tool, it's a training tool. The methodology is to break down your ego, break down your sense that "you know better", so that you can be more easily trained, more easily remoulded, and so on. And for a lot of people that works really well - for some people it has zero effect, and for others it merely frustrates them (but they tend to get through it).

Once you've reached a reasonable level of training, the abuse does not continue - as you succeed, as you improve, you are given increasingly positive feedback - only if you go directly against the training do they revert to the negative feedback.

People who are motivated by being continually, repeatedly treated poorly are atypical, psychologically. I won't say unhealthy - we live in a neurodiverse world, and many different minds are valuable, but atypical for sure. The majority of people are merely pissed off by such behaviour, esp. if they sense it is put on or "an act" or excessive. Honest, direct, non-abusive criticism tends to motivate people, especially rational, reasonable people, far better than "YOU WORTHLESS MAGGOTS...", which again, as I said, is more valuable as part of a training regime.

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Maybe it's a little selfish but without exclusive content there is no epic quest.

This is simply untrue. MOBAs offer very little, if any "exclusive content" to the highest-end players (cosmetics and little else, afaik). They don't have "Gold Rank Only" maps or characters or abilities or whatever. Maybe a lobby or whatever but that's hardly the same thing.

So it's bizarre that you talk about that, then demand entire raids be exclusive.

Blizzard have explained why they aren't - they cost too much to produce to justify that. I mean, if you want the same amount of content as the bulk of the rest of the playerbase for your what, 1%? 5%? 10% of players (you tell me), you would need to contribute equivalently to really justify that? Are you willing to pay 10 to 100x as much as a normal player? Because otherwise...

[Deleted]

This is simply untrue. MOBAs offer very little, if any "exclusive content" to the highest-end players (cosmetics and little else, afaik). They don't have "Gold Rank Only" maps or characters or abilities or whatever. Maybe a lobby or whatever but that's hardly the same thing.

So it's bizarre that you talk about that, then demand entire raids be exclusive.

Blizzard have explained why they aren't - they cost too much to produce to justify that. I mean, if you want the same amount of content as the bulk of the rest of the playerbase for your what, 1%? 5%? 10% of players (you tell me), you would need to contribute equivalently to really justify that? Are you willing to pay 10 to 100x as much as a normal player? Because otherwise...

Well, i'm probably atypical then because i want to be treated like dirt as a training regime until the day i finally reach the goal. That's when the praises, parties, gold and fortune come.

In MOBA's is a little different like you said but there are exclusive skins, borders and icons. Shows of respect and fortune to make you feel empowered and special (snowflake) on the community.
If Blizzard wants to keep LFR then make this "shows of respect" for the people who clear Normal mode+. It gives them incentive and meaning to keep playing.

The existence of LFR is making the "Game Over screen" happear on screen for a lot of people. I see that as a problem.
They shouldnt be seeing the Game Over screen on a tourist mode. I should be treated like dirt for clearing LFR to make me feel i didn't finish the game. (like the chicken hat in MGS:V)

Normal raids are done by at least 35% of the population, maybe more (on Myst of Pandaria at least)

The mere existence of LFR destroys the incentive, the meaning and purpose of joining a normal raid.
It's there. It's queueable. Same bosses. Epics.
Why would i bother entering a normal raid? Item level? To do what? Kill NPC's even faster in the world?

[threads]

exclusivity has always made better games.

if something's hard to get/achieve then it seems more impressive overall.

[Alydael]

I know I'm quite alone with this, but I always loved TBCs way to gate content.

You are not alone, I thought BC "got it right." The only problem was maybe the dungeons were a little too long. Near launch you could be in some of those heroics for hours (shadowlabs I am looking at you). There should be an even mix of long and shorter dungeons.

I would like to see how BC's style of gated content/progression would work now (I think it would). We have a lot more QoL systems in place now that would make the gating less painful (such as different raid modes (normal/ heroic/ mythic- I would classify most of BC's raids as equivalent to current heroic difficulty). We also didn't have LFG in BC which made looking for a dungeon group painful sometimes.

I believe there has to be exclusivity/ gated content for their to be immersion. What is the hero without the great quest and challenge to overcome?