Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[jk5834]

If you read whitewolfs answer again, you already have your answer.

Some numbers (no DS): Say you have 4CP and you use an untalented and unbuffed SS, you have a 35% chance to waste a CP. And when you use a 4CP finisher, you have a 20% (ruthlessness) chance to waste a CP.
SS at 4CP with Broadsides has a 35% chance to waste 3CP (2 with DS), so imo, you should never SS under that cirsumstances and just use a finisher.
So, like Whitewolf said, it is generally better to use finishers at 4CP, if your next CP builder is SS or a free talented PS.

Absolutely makes sense to me, and thank you for the response. I just wanted clarification because everything else that I've read suggests always using a finisher with 5 or 6 cp. I wanted to ensure that, under the above circumstance, one would in fact use a 4 cp finisher.

[WS Whitewolf]

Absolutely makes sense to me, and thank you for the response. I just wanted clarification because everything else that I've read suggests always using a finisher with 5 or 6 cp. I wanted to ensure that, under the above circumstance, one would in fact use a 4 cp finisher.

The explanation lxoxrxd uses is assuming you dont use Deeper stratagem. You don't really want to use a finisher at more than one CP less than max because the damage fall-off make its not worth the energy.

tl;dr: 4 CP finishers are acceptable when you don't have deeper strategem IF it is likely you'll generate a CP that'll be wasted BUT 3 CP finishers aren't worth it. Bump up those numbers by 1 if you have DS talented (which you probably should in most cases.)

[Spriestlawl]

The explanation lxoxrxd uses is assuming you dont use Deeper stratagem. You don't really want to use a finisher at more than one CP less than max because the damage fall-off make its not worth the energy.

tl;dr: 4 CP finishers are acceptable when you don't have deeper strategem IF it is likely you'll generate a CP that'll be wasted BUT 3 CP finishers aren't worth it. Bump up those numbers by 1 if you have DS talented (which you probably should in most cases.)

It's very important people realize 4CP WITHOUT DS is what he's saying. Generally people are going to be using DS talent in which case (again, like he said!) 5CP is the goal. It is worth it to consider "guaranteed" combo points, not small % chances at extra CP. This was simd a few pages earlier I believe and no significant changes warrant re-sims.

Has any of the AMR sims guys saved their individual APLs for RtB 2buff checks / SIW? @Zoopercat did them all initially (and rechecked after RT changes) but I believe they were manually edited. I can re-do the work but was curious if anyone saved them and wouldn't mind linking the rotations..

Edit: Zoopercat has given me all the info, I'll toss up some numbers as I'm able.

[huth]

They fixed grappling along with warrior leap. There were issues where it wouldnt work on higher elevation places before, which was not intended. Being able to get places is intended.

With DHs around they don't really have an excuse anymore.

[TheRogue]

You can do some quick napkin math on using (4)5 vs (5)6 cps on damaging finishers. And see how minimal using 5vs6 or 4vs5 actually is, vs wasting potentially 2-4CP trying to go 4>5 or 5>6.

Verrrrry small dmg difference.

[elfporn]

You can do some quick napkin math on using (4)5 vs (5)6 cps on damaging finishers. And see how minimal using 5vs6 or 4vs5 actually is, vs wasting potentially 2-4CP trying to go 4>5 or 5>6.

Verrrrry small dmg difference.

it was a 1.5k difference to do 6 cp only except when you have JR or broadsides, or doing 5-6cp always

[Deefame]

Quick question guys. Does using Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs add Between the Eyes to our rotation? (is it a dps increase over just using run through)

[Wow]

So they hotfixed some of our legendaries tonight.

Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs - buffed to 400% from 300%
Thraxi's Tricksy Treads - nerfed to 20% from 50%
Cinidaria, the Symbiote - nerfed to 30% from 50%

That's all for our class but many other classes got many nerfs to their legendaries and some weak ones buffed.

[TheRogue]

bit disappointing on the sprint boots, that will bring down the CotD burst window quite a bit.

[Minka]

bit disappointing on the sprint boots, that will bring down the CotD burst window quite a bit.

they need to nerf outlaw in intself becasue atm playing something different is shooting yourself and that is something that should not go live like this.
I am forced to play outlaw if I want to contribute the best for my mythic raid.
I was ok with it in the past becasue just grab another weapon and go.
But now I have to spend grinding to push other artifacts I don't wanted to main.

[Deefame]

Nothing should EVER be nerfed due to pre-expansion sims. If you feel you're forced to play Outlaw, that is purely your issue.

[Wow]

they need to nerf outlaw in intself becasue atm playing something different is shooting yourself and that is something that should not go live like this.
I am forced to play outlaw if I want to contribute the best for my mythic raid.
I was ok with it in the past becasue just grab another weapon and go.
But now I have to spend grinding to push other artifacts I don't wanted to main.

This won't change outlaw from being the top spec it just won't go full retard with a legendary now. As far as progression is concerned nothing has changed.

[shaunika123]

Nothing should EVER be nerfed due to pre-expansion sims. If you feel you're forced to play Outlaw, that is purely your issue.

then again, once we're live it's too late since you already spent the points on the wep :P

[Greylan]

A better alternative would be to buff the other 2 specs.

[Minka]

A better alternative would be to buff the other 2 specs.

I am also ok with that

[Deleted]

The only good spec for leveling?

[TheRogue]

Sub is also good for leveling in terms of survivability with Soothing Shadows. But Crimson vial and Grand Melee are very nice survivability too. Then youve got strong cleave to seal the deal

[Deleted]

Sub is also good for leveling in terms of survivability with Soothing Shadows. But Crimson vial and Grand Melee are very nice survivability too. Then youve got strong cleave to seal the deal

Even when backstab benefits from behind target and stealth playing a big role? (having to go in and out constantly). Assassination doesn't really work a low levels.

Outlaw seems straight down the line with no real down side.

[Celfydd]

Even when backstab benefits from behind target and stealth playing a big role? (having to go in and out constantly).

For levelling you use Gloomblade so the positional requirements of Backstab aren't an issue. For weak mobs you just open from stealth and don't really need to worry about dance. Stronger mobs will stick around for long enough that you can use a few finishers and thus reduce the dance CD. It's not a problem. As @TheRogue says the advantage of sub is that when you restealth in between mobs you heal to full in no time without needing food etc with Soothing Shadows. You also heal during dance on the bigger mobs.

I guess if your playstyle is that you want to chain pull and not open from stealth then you're better of with outlaw. But with that playstyle you might as well be a warrior, it's not optimal for rogues of any variety.

[Yhcti]

Both Outlaw and Sub are great for levelling. With Sub you get healing from Shadow Dance & Stealth with Crimson vial and the burst is extremely good. Outlaw is great overall, I happily tag 3-4 mobs and BF cleave them down as Outlaw. I'll level as outlaw just as I'm going to be a Mythic+ player so need my Outlaw weapons asap