[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Jaman]

Nope. Blizzard took away the option for destro to go fully pet-less (competitively), even though the playstyle was quite well-established (and loved) by now. At the same time, they gave MM hunters and Frost mages the option to go fully pet-less (Lone Wolf and Lonely Winter, respectively), even though these specs have traditionally used pets. Because Blizzard loves giving the middle finger to warlocks class fantasy.

MM was supposed to be completely pet-less, wasn't it? I thought the ability to call a pet (and Lone Wolf) was added back after some complaints and QQ.

As for Frost, it depends on what you mean by 'traditionally'. The Elemental was only added as a permanent pet in Cataclysm (or maybe late Wrath) IIRC.

[Deleted]

Playing with destro briefly the spec has incredibly long cast times and feels slow. Anyone able to provide an opinion on whether the spec will be effective in a fast chain pull environment specifically legion challenge modes? I assume the spec has perhaps unparalleled cleave/ae potential but that's rather academic if the target is dead already or moved out of range or any number of reasons that would have a negative impact on a class with long cast times

[bio347]

Playing with destro briefly the spec has incredibly long cast times and feels slow.

Do you mean "Chaos Bolt has a long cast time"? Because the rest of the spec is pretty much the standard cast speeds of any caster spec - 2s filler and some 1.5s stuff.

In fact, once you've got the artifact, Incinerate actually becomes the fastest filler in the game!

[Turturin the Warlock]

It's a cleave talent, so you'll lose damage if you don't have anything to cleave. From what I understand its basically like having your imp out but nothing talented in that row if you use gosac on ST.

From my testing on ST (ursoc, nythendra) and sims I've seen its not quite that big a delta. Take with grain of salt as I can't vouch for sims and own testing is small sample size, but seems like imp is about 11-12% of single target dmg and service imp is another 6% or so. Demonic power on a single target seems to be in the 15 to 16% range.

[Lucrece]

The shard cost to doomguard/infernal/grimoire demon NEED TO GO. Rain of Fire needs to be a 2 shard cost and condense its duration to 5 seconds.

Conflagrate also needs to hit harder if it's going to be our only mobile damage. Warlock is trash in PvP right now.

[Uzkin]

Do you mean "Chaos Bolt has a long cast time"? Because the rest of the spec is pretty much the standard cast speeds of any caster spec - 2s filler and some 1.5s stuff.

In fact, once you've got the artifact, Incinerate actually becomes the fastest filler in the game!

It's mostly due to the removal of baseline Backdraft, removal of baseline -0.5 sec Chaosbolt, removal of -0.5 sec GCD modifier, removal of baseline Shadowburn, and removal of near-zero-GCD Havoc. The feeling of slowness doesn't arise as much from the cast times as it does from the increased... monotonousness of the legion mechanics. The WoD/MoP design had the spec-appropriate chaotic/hectic spam phases interwoven with the destructive unleash phases. The legion design certainly feels less intriguing, less fun, and less conforming to the spec identity in comparison, lacking both in the "hectic spam" and "big OOMPH" moments. The new AoE feels very slow as well, whereas it used to be a fun combination of fast builder and slow hard-hitting spells.

[bio347]

It's mostly due to the removal of baseline Backdraft, removal of baseline -0.5 sec Chaosbolt, removal of -0.5 sec GCD modifier, removal of baseline Shadowburn, and removal of near-zero-GCD Havoc. The feeling of slowness doesn't arise as much from the cast times as it does from the increased... monotonousness of the legion mechanics. The WoD/MoP design had the spec-appropriate chaotic/hectic spam phases interwoven with the destructive unleash phases. The legion design certainly feels less intriguing, less fun, and less conforming to the spec identity in comparison, lacking both in the "hectic spam" and "big OOMPH" moments. The new AoE feels very slow as well, whereas it used to be a fun combination of fast builder and slow hard-hitting spells.

Dude didn't say "spec feels slow compared to how it used to be" or anything remotely like that, though. He said it has long cast times, which is simply objectively untrue (at least in the plural). CB has a long cast, sure, but the rest of the spec is pretty standard baseline and only gets quicker with talents and artifact traits.

Also, I should correct myself: Balance druid Solar Wrath is the fastest filler, artifact'd Incinerate is the second fastest.

[Deleted]

Playing with destro briefly the spec has incredibly long cast times and feels slow. Anyone able to provide an opinion on whether the spec will be effective in a fast chain pull environment specifically legion challenge modes? I assume the spec has perhaps unparalleled cleave/ae potential but that's rather academic if the target is dead already or moved out of range or any number of reasons that would have a negative impact on a class with long cast times

There are no legion challenge modes, but Mythic+. It's different because a) mobs hp and dps scales up the higher + you go, so generally things live longer and b) You are not that pressed on time any more since you "only" have to make a certain set time (basically just achieve the equivalent of what was "gold", anything quicker does not give additional reward/fame).

That's why destro is actually quite strong until around Mythic+5, when you see destro drop off relative to affli, because of quicker, more effective sustained AOE. Both ARE completely viable for Mythic+10 (all that counts outside of fame)

[Turturin the Warlock]

There are no legion challenge modes, but Mythic+. It's different because a) mobs hp and dps scales up the higher + you go, so generally things live longer and b) You are not that pressed on time any more since you "only" have to make a certain set time (basically just achieve the equivalent of what was "gold", anything quicker does not give additional reward/fame).

That's why destro is actually quite strong until around Mythic+5, when you see destro drop off relative to affli, because of quicker, more effective sustained AOE. Both ARE completely viable for Mythic+10 (all that counts outside of fame)

Not all mythic+ dungeons the same in terms of number of AoE pulls vs 2-4 mob pulls, and affixes change how you need to dps. For example you don't really want to aoe on necrotic. So I think we want to be careful with blanket statements about what's best for high mythic+. It really depends a lot on instance, affixes, and group comp.

[Uzkin]

Oh, one more thing that quite uniquely and unfairly penalizes destro and the other lock specs: horrible battlerez recovery! Whereas most other dpsers just jump back up and get at it again, destro has to

1) cast conflagrate at boss to get a shard, thus wasting Backdraft (= waste dps)
2) spend time resummoning pet (= waste dps)
3) waste shard for the summon (= waste dps)
4) use GoSac to get the buff back up

That's quite a hefty amount of class fantasy served right in your face whenever you brez.

[Baconeggcheese]

Well, in fairness we're also the last people standing when a raid wiping mechanic goes out so... I'll take that trade.

[Uzkin]

Well, in fairness we're also the last people standing when a raid wiping mechanic goes out so... I'll take that trade.

I don't. Low mobility is supposed to be the price we have to pay for our "tankiness". I don't want any additional "class fantasy" shoved down my throat because of it.

[Tehterokkar]

I don't. Low mobility is supposed to be the price we have to pay for our "tankiness". I don't want any additional "class fantasy" shoved down my throat because of it.

If you die as a Warlock and a wipe isn't already called, you are doing something wrong.

[Uzkin]

If you die as a Warlock and a wipe isn't already called, you are doing something wrong.

Lol. OR healers are doing something wrong. OR tanks are doing something wrong. OR you're fighting some content undergeared, and get unlucky. OR you're fighting an invasion end-boss. etc.

See? You're wrong.

Edit. The "you're doing something wrong" is certainly *part* of the list, though. And it doesn't invalidate my point, quite the contrary.

[bio347]

It's not particularly news that Destruction bounces back slowly after a death, though. Ever since the MoP revamp, losing all of your embers has been quite punishing (to say nothing of the long pet summon cast and need to rebuff).

And also, I'm sure Arcane mages are probably worse. Starting off with low mana is absolutely devastating for them.

[Uzkin]

Still doesn't invalidate my point. Besides, mages can use fire which is the superior spec, anyway.

Really, some people seem to think that destro/warlocks are supposed to be the sum total of all the worst features picked and combined from every other class...

[Orwell7]

If you die as a Warlock and a wipe isn't already called, you are doing something wrong.

If you die as *any class* and a wipe isn't already called, you are doing something wrong. Obviously...

[ThePhantombox]

Still doesn't invalidate my point. Besides, mages can use fire which is the superior spec, anyway.

Really, some people seem to think that destro/warlocks are supposed to be the sum total of all the worst features picked and combined from every other class...

Hurrr durrr well why don u paly oter spec den?

[Halwyn]

Oh, one more thing that quite uniquely and unfairly penalizes destro and the other lock specs: horrible battlerez recovery! Whereas most other dpsers just jump back up and get at it again, destro has to

1) cast conflagrate at boss to get a shard, thus wasting Backdraft (= waste dps)
2) spend time resummoning pet (= waste dps)
3) waste shard for the summon (= waste dps)
4) use GoSac to get the buff back up

That's quite a hefty amount of class fantasy served right in your face whenever you brez.

Running away to the corner of the room with necromancer's mark during Reap = OMG SO MUCH DPS WASTED!!!!1111

Stop making an elephant out of the fly, will you? There's as much dps to be lost due to mechanics as to dying and being rezzed, yet no one complains about it. Unless you want to complain for the sake of complaining that is.

[Spunt]

Running away to the corner of the room with necromancer's mark during Reap = OMG SO MUCH DPS WASTED!!!!1111

Stop making an elephant out of the fly, will you? There's as much dps to be lost due to mechanics as to dying and being rezzed, yet no one complains about it. Unless you want to complain for the sake of complaining that is.

It's more noticeable for specs that have massive ramp up, unfortunately. Come legion, heaven help you if a 20 stack Agony falls off your Effigy and/or boss.