Stop making Horde and Orcs the bad guys

[Derah]

Again, where are you getting this from? I just said that it's cowardly, which it is.

Then I guess every single military leader in the history of mankind is a coward to you.

Understand this, if you can, which I doubt:

There have been countless wars in the long and bloody history of our violent race. Wars are made of several battles. And in every war, of course there's a winner, and a loser. NOT A SINGLE WAR, NOT ONE has been won, without losing at least one or two battles. NOT ONE in over 500,000 years of warfare history.

Each and every single one of these winners, in each and every single one of these wars, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, has had to withdraw from at least one battle in their military career. From Gengis Khan, to Alexander The Great, to countless others. Won wars, but when they lost battles, they withdrew.

If I was going to fight, I'd make sure that we had a better sense of the battle before rushing in there, unlike the Alliance and Horde. If you're going to oppose someone, you should know your enemy before you even begin to fight.

You act as if knowing everything there is to know about the battlefield (Which is impossible even in these days where we have modern technology and satellite surveillance and unmanned drones, now imagine in medieval times) is a guarantee of victory on the field. It isn't. Sun Tzu one of the greatest strategists ever known to man said "know your enemy as you know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles", he never said "know your enemy as you know yourself and you'll be invincible in war". Because there is no such thing as someone invincible in war. Every single war, even the ones that were decisive victories, carry with them losses. Sometimes big, sometimes small. Sometimes in the form of a few dead here and there, and sometimes in entire battles lost.

The expansion of the Black City and the fel-airships ported in that should have been clue enough to regroup without pursuing the Silver Hand bait made by Gul'dan. You send the flare (or whatever to contact the other faction) and regroup to face your enemy before you rush in and prove yourself a coward by not being prepared and running from your own failures.

This is a literal contradiction. You say that retreating during the first half of the broken shore is not cowardly. But then you say that retreating during the latter part is?

I agree that both sides went in unprepared, they underestimated the legion greatly (And neither faction was truly prepared for the presence of spaceships, which the legion had never used before.) but they went to the broken shore to do a job, and unless they were getting drastically beaten, withdrawing at the start would have undermined all the lives lost up to that point.

[Lady Dragonheart]

As said by yourself you wouldn't retreat (thinking its cowardly), so you would rather kill all of your troops, honour intact, than retreat, and win. Which is the stupid, shortsighted thinking that doesn't win WARS.

Retreating/Fleeing is cowardly. However, you're missing and assuming several key elements here, though. I said that I wouldn't have ever been in that situation in the first place, since the Black City's creation was as quick as they said, the fel-airships were obviously an air-dominance for the Legion there, the Silver Hand bodies and caged soldiers were obvious bait even before we reached Tirion, lastly and most importantly the Legion forces fled in order to let the players through, that screams "It's a trap" in the others never caught anyone's attention. As I said, earlier, better assessment of the Isle should have taken place than foolishly rushing to the obvious trap in the first place. You should know your enemy before you even engage them in battle, lest you be overpowered and forced into the choice of retaining your honor by accepting your decision to walk blindly into a trap or run with your tail (or whatever) in between your legs because you're too weak to overcome the odds that you accepted when you rushed in there.

[Gradingus]

I don't get why people make Orcs and the Horde seem so evil, when there are just as many evildoers in the Human race alone, if not more than that, even.
Just wish Blizzard would stop doing the whole "ooh misunderstanding guess Horde's evil lol"-thing, it's old and stale by now

Also, why is there someone going "Alliance is good, Horde is evil" and talking about retreating being cowardice, when Orcs are literally the ones who always talk about victory and death, and dying honorably?

[Lady Dragonheart]

Then I guess every single military leader in the history of mankind is a coward to you.

Understand this, if you can, which I doubt:

There have been countless wars in the long and bloody history of our violent race. Wars are made of several battles. And in every war, of course there's a winner, and a loser. NOT A SINGLE WAR, NOT ONE has been won, without losing at least one or two battles. NOT ONE in over 500,000 years of warfare history.

Each and every single one of these winners, in each and every single one of these wars, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, has had to withdraw from at least one battle in their military career. From Gengis Khan, to Alexander The Great, to countless others. Won wars, but when they lost battles, they withdrew.



You act as if knowing everything there is to know about the battlefield (Which is impossible even in these days where we have modern technology and satellite surveillance and unmanned drones, now imagine in medieval times) is a guarantee of victory on the field. It isn't. Sun Tzu one of the greatest strategists ever known to man said "know your enemy as you know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles", he never said "know your enemy as you know yourself and you'll be invincible in war". Because there is no such thing as someone invincible in war. Every single war, even the ones that were decisive victories, carry with them losses. Sometimes big, sometimes small. Sometimes in the form of a few dead here and there, and sometimes in entire battles lost.



This is a literal contradiction. You say that retreating during the first half of the broken shore is not cowardly. But then you say that retreating during the latter part is?

I agree that both sides went in unprepared, they underestimated the legion greatly (And neither faction was truly prepared for the presence of spaceships, which the legion had never used before.) but they went to the broken shore to do a job, and unless they were getting drastically beaten, withdrawing at the start would have undermined all the lives lost up to that point.

Every single one that retreated because they were too stupid to fall into an obvious trap like that, very much so.

Also, I already stated, the Legion fled first. Continuing to pursue them into a trap definitely wasn't the brightest idea by either side.
Proper military protocol would have demanded a reassessment of the enemies new capabilities over rescuing Tirion by a long-shot. That is simply what should have been done, if that meant leaving AFTER the assessment, than that's that. Else the battle would have been much more strategic by both the Alliance and Horde.

Like I've been saying, I understand the narrative and confusion of battle... but these are some of the most battle-hardened heroes of both factions, and they stumbled foolishly like amateurs right into Gul'dan's obvious trap. They deserve to be treated as cowards for running from a fight that they did not even attempt to assess when the situation called for it, several times, no less.

[MORGATH99]

one orc save the whole world once ... hes name was broxigar

[Deleted]

I want the opposite. It was blizzards biggest mistake to excuse orcs for being evil and green when they introduced lord of clans/wc3. The orcish horde in Wc1-Wc2 was a lot more appealing than this sorry excuse of easy manipulated brutes. Their warriors have like given up their braincells for talking and thinking while their shamans are like the protectors of eternal wisdom and tranquility.

Would appreciate if these excuses and "deep" background stops. Hate should not be discriminated - hatred based on experience just sucks, everything should be good in their core sucks. Maybe the ultimate writing will be like "the void lords try to re-establish neutrality because the rest of the universe became too nice with trees and rainbows flying everywhere"...

[Friendlyimmolation]

Retreating/Fleeing

Are not the same thing.

[Dialout]

Stop viewing every scenario so one-sided.

[Daexulin]

meanwhile

humans trying to defend and keep their people and honour intact
night elves trying to keep the nature healthy and fruitful
draenei just trying to find a place to live long enough to build a force to counter the legion
gnomes are techies, who yeah do cause some issues... but overall doing their best
worgens who are assholes who locked themselves away from the first war...
dwarves who simply want to protect the earth and their people

and pandaren just want to protect their home, and look how that turned out, the alliance ones are fine, well the horde one got beat to near death.... from his own faction....

does that mean horde is evil alliance good? no, both have done questionable things...

but overall the horde is the worse of the two...

I like how most posts here completely ignore the atrocities of the alliance while pointing out those of the horde.

First a major one, draenei are the main commanders of the Burning Legion. Without their ilk Sargeras wouldn't be able to fully control the mass of demons.

Dwarves summoned Ragnaros over a petty squabble slaughtering a myriad of their kind and forever ruining whole sections of the world.

Humans often forget their honor. The various kingdoms ignored and even betrayed each other in times of need. Loerdaron was snobbish, gilneas reclusive, kul tiras extremely racist and bull headed, alterac sold out their neighbors to their enemies. Not to mention the slave camps and pit fights that were ran for sport. Even Varian was victim to that. Even that majority of cultists in the game are humans.

Night elves are extremely haughty and ignored the plight of "lesser races" for generations. Yet even in their vast wisdom they have caused irreparable damage to the world. Their queen summoned the Legion and ultimately became the naga. One of their leaders, Fandral, recklessly corrupted a whole ecosystem in northrend and later marshalled an outright attack against the world and corrupting hundreds of its protectors. We have yet to see the damage he helped unleash in the emerald dream. NE also brought on the curse of the worgen.

Gnomes are almost a parasitic race. When they tried to run their own kingdom it became a blight on the world which is still being dealt with.


My point is both factions have messed up majorly and it is not fair to call either side bad guys. Those that remain in both the alliance and horde have broken off from those that aim to do harm and try to do right. That is why Thrall formed the new horde, to do right.

And yes both sides still make mistakes. Just don't sugarcoat just ones side.

[Eapoe]

Every single one that retreated because they were too stupid to fall into an obvious trap like that, very much so.

Also, I already stated, the Legion fled first. Continuing to pursue them into a trap definitely wasn't the brightest idea by either side.
Proper military protocol would have demanded a reassessment of the enemies new capabilities over rescuing Tirion by a long-shot. That is simply what should have been done, if that meant leaving AFTER the assessment, than that's that. Else the battle would have been much more strategic by both the Alliance and Horde.

Like I've been saying, I understand the narrative and confusion of battle... but these are some of the most battle-hardened heroes of both factions, and they stumbled foolishly like amateurs right into Gul'dan's obvious trap. They deserve to be treated as cowards for running from a fight that they did not even attempt to assess when the situation called for it, several times, no less.

You do realize in all this that the trap did specifically what it was designed to do? It lured in the alli and horde and crushed them. Even in the opening it was commented that "That's not an invasion force, it's an army!" The horde and alli forces went in expecting it to be the beginning of the invasion. Yes, there would be a considerable force from the Legion, but they were not expecting an entire army to already be set up with more incoming the entire time. When they got there, they were behind the first scouters (Tirion's forces) and fought their way thru to catch up with him, rescuing whoever they could to add to their numbers. They could have retreated as soon as they landed on the shore, but they decided to use whatever advantage they had at that point and continue going for Guldan (the one who is letting the invasion happen time and time again). It was a gamble and they lost. Plain and simple. By your rules then no matter when they retreated, whether at the beginning when they still seemed to have a chance of at the end when all was lost, then they would have been cowards. The trap worked. It's easy to say it was a blatant trap after all is said and done, but in the heat of battle it's not so easy to make out.

[Derah]

Every single one that retreated because they were too stupid to fall into an obvious trap like that, very much so.

Also, I already stated, the Legion fled first. Continuing to pursue them into a trap definitely wasn't the brightest idea by either side.
Proper military protocol would have demanded a reassessment of the enemies new capabilities over rescuing Tirion by a long-shot. That is simply what should have been done, if that meant leaving AFTER the assessment, than that's that. Else the battle would have been much more strategic by both the Alliance and Horde.

Like I've been saying, I understand the narrative and confusion of battle... but these are some of the most battle-hardened heroes of both factions, and they stumbled foolishly like amateurs right into Gul'dan's obvious trap. They deserve to be treated as cowards for running from a fight that they did not even attempt to assess when the situation called for it, several times, no less.

Then call them incompetent if you want. I know I do. Both the alliance, the horde, and SPECIALLY the Argent Crusade, were woefully incompetent in their entire assault on the broken shore. But to call them cowards shows a great deal of ignorance on your end.

Also, because you seem to think its better to go down in a blaze of glory and keep your "Honor" intact than to flee a lost battle because that's "dishonorable and cowardly", Sun Tzu lists as one of the "Five Great Weaknesses" a general can have, the lack of fear of death. After all, any leader who isn't afraid of dying, is more liable to being killed by the enemy. The polar opposite is also true, as a leader who is too afraid to die, can easily be captured and milked for intel. Thus, the more advisable approach, is to balance a proper fearlessness of death, and at the same time, an equal dose of love of life.

And of course there's an entire section dedicated to illustrating just how important it is that if the enemy is too strong to face without being annihilated yourself, the wiser course of action is ALWAYS to retreat. A good leader not only knows when to retreat, they'll also allow the enemy to retreat if they rout. More than one failure general has won a battle, refused to allow the enemy to retreat, backed them into a corner, and yes, killed them all to the last man, but also needlessly lost more men than he should have because the cornered enemy fought more fiercely and took a large chunk of his forces with them.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Then call them incompetent if you want. I know I do. Both the alliance, the horde, and SPECIALLY the Argent Crusade, were woefully incompetent in their entire assault on the broken shore. But to call them cowards shows a great deal of ignorance on your end.

Again, why is it ignorant to call them out on their double-standard belief system?

Also, because you seem to think its better to go down in a blaze of glory and keep your "Honor" intact than to flee a lost battle because that's "dishonorable and cowardly", Sun Tzu lists as one of the "Five Great Weaknesses" a general can have, the lack of fear of death. After all, any leader who isn't afraid of dying, is more liable to being killed by the enemy. The polar opposite is also true, as a leader who is too afraid to die, can easily be captured and milked for intel. Thus, the more advisable approach, is to balance a proper fearlessness of death, and at the same time, an equal dose of love of life.

Where are you getting that cowardice = bad?
Also, where are you getting that I would go in blaze of glory?
I never said either one, nor do I agree with either one. They simply are. That doesn't mean that I like them or would follow such meaningless ideologies.

However, the Alliance and especially the Horde, have strong roots in such ideologies, which is why I chastise them both on the ideal.

And of course there's an entire section dedicated to illustrating just how important it is that if the enemy is too strong to face without being annihilated yourself, the wiser course of action is ALWAYS to retreat. A good leader not only knows when to retreat, they'll also allow the enemy to retreat if they rout. More than one failure general has won a battle, refused to allow the enemy to retreat, backed them into a corner, and yes, killed them all to the last man, but also needlessly lost more men than he should have because the cornered enemy fought more fiercely and took a large chunk of his forces with them.

Of course you'd retreat, I've been agreeing with everyone that retreating fleeing is the smart thing to do. I'm also saying that it's the cowardly thing to do as well.

My question is why do you continue to assume that I would follow the ideals of them?

[DarthMonk79]

Can you link me the lawbook that the Horde agreed on where it says that Undead have no rights and lose all titles, lands and claims?
Hell, even the Alliance doesn't have such a law.

Really? They were dead, as in not living. What right to lands to the dead have, they were buried and rose again. A living being has claims and rights, a dead being is just that.... dead. I mean you might as well say Cairne is still leader of the Tauren even though he's dead and Baine isn't. Plain and simple....

[Eapoe]

Again, why is it ignorant to call them out on their double-standard belief system?




Where are you getting that cowardice = bad?
Also, where are you getting that I would go in blaze of glory?
I never said either one, nor do I agree with either one. They simply are. That doesn't mean that I like them or would follow such meaningless ideologies.

However, the Alliance and especially the Horde, have strong roots in such ideologies, which is why I chastise them both on the ideal.




Of course you'd retreat, I've been agreeing with everyone that retreating fleeing is the smart thing to do. I'm also saying that it's the cowardly thing to do as well.

My question is why do you continue to assume that I would follow the ideals of them?

If the double standard you are talking about is the "Victory or death!" shout, then you are slightly misguided. It is not used as just a simple mantra. Yes, it's their battle cry, but it also encompasses the war, not the battle, meaning that they would choose death over slavery or being a broken race. It does apply to battles as well for things to keep them motivated and fight for all they have. It does not mean fight until you can't stand and die a worthless death in a battle that you can escape from and come back stronger. When the backs are to the wall with nothing left, then they will choose death over surrender.

[Karnak]

It was the Draenei presence on Draenor that led the Legion to the Orcs and it was the orcs who accepted the Legions offers of power were manipulated and started the Massacre of the Draenei then Invaded Azeroth.

This is false. The Legion went to Draenor looking for the Orcs which they had determined were a powerful tool they could use to destroy Azeroth. Finding the Draenei, who had finally shaken the Legion off their trail, there was a happy accident for them.

The Legion learned of Orcs because of their encounter with Broxigar in the War of the Ancients. They were so impressed with him they went looking for the source so they could add them to the Legion just as they had added the Eredar.

[Friendlyimmolation]

This is false. The Legion went to Draenor looking for the Orcs which they had determined were a powerful tool they could use to destroy Azeroth. Finding the Draenei, who had finally shaken the Legion off their trail, there was a happy accident for them.

The Legion learned of Orcs because of their encounter with Broxigar in the War of the Ancients. They were so impressed with him they went looking for the source so they could add them to the Legion just as they had added the Eredar.

None of that is true, They considered Draenor a waste of time, only corrupting the orcs do kill the Draenei for them.

[Aquinan]

I said that I wouldn't have ever been in that situation in the first place.

You should change your name to Captain Hindsight, all of your arguments are made knowing what happened. I'm done talking to someone who is so appallingly ignorant of actual honour, tactics and actual warfare.

[Deleted]

So why should orcs (or rather the horde) be immune to civil war and rebellion?

[ehxy]

The dorks must die

[Deleted]

What is this?

I picked horde hoping they'd be the bad guys. Unfortunately, due to people like you, they're nowhere near that. "Boo, I want my orc to be good".

IT'S AN ORC. DEAL WITH IT.