Word from Blizzard on the Warlock "situation"?

[Orwell7]

A lot of the issues like ramp up and a lack of utility are too deep seated in the basic design of the class. Those aren't the sorts of things that get fixed mid expansion. It's far, far too late to expect anything to happen now, the best you can expect is acknowledgment of things to look at next time around.

It's pretty easy.
For Affliction, shift the damage from felpuppy into a new spell that detonates all your UA damage on the target. Maybe an aoe effect that can pop seeds.
For Demonology, shift the damage from imps into dreadstalkers, add dreadstalker charges, add them cleave, and make them only up for 5 seconds (but ofc deal the damage it previously dealt over 12 seconds), but still 15 seconds CD.
For Destruction, shift the damage from imp/immolate into chaos bolt, reduce shard cost of CB, make incinerate generate shards again but remove the RNG from immolate.

Or something like that.

[Brohoof]

"Working as Intended"

[Deleted]

It's pretty easy.
For Affliction, shift the damage from felpuppy into a new spell that detonates all your UA damage on the target. Maybe an aoe effect that can pop seeds.
For Demonology, shift the damage from imps into dreadstalkers, add dreadstalker charges, add them cleave, and make them only up for 5 seconds (but ofc deal the damage it previously dealt over 12 seconds), but still 15 seconds CD.
For Destruction, shift the damage from imp/immolate into chaos bolt, reduce shard cost of CB, make incinerate generate shards again but remove the RNG from immolate.

Or something like that.

For Affliction, lower the Seed detonation threshold and remove the felpuppy dmg increase so we can pick all pets.
For Demo, increase the duration of dreadstalker and make DE an aura instead of a buff. Preferably "RoP Style" 45s CD 2 charges 10s duration to act as a short cd pet Bloodlust. Maybe remove IMplosion from the GCD and only useing the oldest cast of imps for QoL.
Destro, move dmg from Immolation to CB. RoF being 2 shards and act as an AoE CB. Give Incinerate a chance to give a shard or x% of a shard just like affliction in WoD had partial shards.

[Deleted]

Yes, the same drivel was posted about Destruction when SoO patch was on PTR and Blizzard listened and went ahead to create a monster. And yes you had many smart guys posting how shit everything is as well, result - overbuff and literal Warlock domination for more than 1 year. There was nothing more broken ever than Warlocks in PvE in SoO.

And this is the kind of attitude that worries me.

There have been plenty of situations when warlocks have been more broken than SOO.

Tail end of TBC.
Dragonsoul for sure, possibly a good chunk of Firelands.
Most of MOP in regards to affliction.

Also seems ludicrous to pretend no other class has been as dominant for length periods of times, mages in particular though iirc Rogues and Mages were both bonkers for most of Cata.

Output is the least of warlocks concerns, and I worry that that's what blizzard will do - twist the output nob a little and try to get people to shut up with the least effort.

We've never been bad off in raiding since TBC. We've had glaring design issues since at least the MOP revamp. It feels like Blizzard keep trying to re-invent the class every other expansion, deliver something half baked and then don't want to fiddle too much because the class has recently got a lot of attention, regardless of how beneficial or detrimental that was.

Warlock dps output isn't worth 1,300 posts.

It's pretty easy.
For Affliction, shift the damage from felpuppy into a new spell that detonates all your UA damage on the target. Maybe an aoe effect that can pop seeds.
For Demonology, shift the damage from imps into dreadstalkers, add dreadstalker charges, add them cleave, and make them only up for 5 seconds (but ofc deal the damage it previously dealt over 12 seconds), but still 15 seconds CD.
For Destruction, shift the damage from imp/immolate into chaos bolt, reduce shard cost of CB, make incinerate generate shards again but remove the RNG from immolate.

Or something like that.

Asking for new spells seems pretty pointless, especially ones as redundant as detonating your seeds when all that needs changing is the detonation threshold to get a chain reaction. Blizzard are unlikely to be making new abilities this late into development even if their pruning policy wasn't in full swing.

It's things like your destruction suggestions, shifting some damage to make chaos bolt feel better / making incinerate feel like it's doing something that you might get something out of asking for.

[Deleted]

Genuinely OP??? PVE???

Wow, I think I just laughed.

Who the hell cares about what class is OP in PVE. Is the boss dead?

Good raid. Who cares how it happened.

OP only matters in PVP and if you don't think classes have had entire expansions where they were OP you're deaf, dumb and blind.

Who the hell cares if a PVE class is OP for a patch?

Most people do. If no one cared, no one would load Recount of Skada. It's extremely bad for player morale to play a class to the best of your ability and you know before you start that someone next to you can slack and they'll still get more reward for it - no one ever wants to be permanently second best, everyone needs their moment to shine, everyone needs that potential.

And of course, if you are in a competetive raid guild that does serious progression, then if you're in this expacs dumpster class then you either get benched or you switch.

That's why guild slike that expect their members to have multiple classes - they just stack the effective ones and don;t play the rubbish ones.

They won;t be stacking warlocks for sure. There is absolutely nothing the class brings to the table that plenty of others don;t bring more of in the hands of an equally skilled player. The only exceptions might be Destruction in a situation where it can abuse Havoc, Demonology in a Patchwerk fight or Affliction in one with masses of longer-living adds. But these are quite niche strengths.

Blizzard have failed badly in their stated attempt to create "weaknesses/strengths" design. The intent was obviously to create strengths and weaknesses to make raid comps more interesting under their "it wouldbe great to have a hunter for this" reasoning (actually a reversal of the "bring the player not the class" philosphy which was brought about precisely because it felt mandatory to bring certain classes)

They failed because they stacked too many weaknesses on some (like locks and rets) and too many strengths on others (mages, mm hunters, unholy dks). So we have ended up with a few excellent all rounders and a few great at one thing but pretty rubbish at everything else classes. Given that raids won;t swap classes between encounters, guess what happens? The all-rounders become the obvious choice.

They just won't take a warlock as ranged dps if there's an equally skilled mage or hunter. For one thing, before everyone outgears everything, every time you take a warlock instead of a mage you're increasing the chances of missing that kill. The dps gap matters and the more warlocks you have the more you compound the problem.

Plus, of course, you run into the very real issue that PUGs will simply ignore warlocks in favour of mages and hunters. A PUG group has no idea of the player skill, so the obvious first hurdle to fall at is class. Everyone will know that warlocks are a weaker class and particularly demonology has glaring weaknesses

Mages and MM hunters are strong, all rounders and they'll always take priority over a warlock in a PUG group.

[Deleted]

The fact that I'll probably have to mute my RL for all the complains I'm going to get when I don't damage raid mechanics, should be a hint to a flawed design .

Low Mobility = low damage on movement and more damage taken. My mage in HFC takes 1 fire stack of damage before blinking out if I fail, my Warlock takes multiple stacks if I need to run out and my damage drops to 0 while doing it.

Overspecialisation = We need to change talents for AoE or ST, they are too specialized to ignore. We also need more artifacts leveled as there is no "best spec", our specs are average + weakness, leading to lots of spec swaps.

Tbh Life tap, being with us forever should be a boon. If we deal 100% dps of other classes our stuff needs to deal more damage and heal for more to compensate for the lost GCD/hp we spend tapping our hp away for more mana.

[Gohzerlock]

The fact that I'll probably have to mute my RL for all the complains I'm going to get when I don't damage raid mechanics, should be a hint to a flawed design .

Low Mobility = low damage on movement and more damage taken. My mage in HFC takes 1 fire stack of damage before blinking out if I fail, my Warlock takes multiple stacks if I need to run out and my damage drops to 0 while doing it.

Overspecialisation = We need to change talents for AoE or ST, they are too specialized to ignore. We also need more artifacts leveled as there is no "best spec", our specs are average + weakness, leading to lots of spec swaps.

Tbh Life tap, being with us forever should be a boon. If we deal 100% dps of other classes our stuff needs to deal more damage and heal for more to compensate for the lost GCD/hp we spend tapping our hp away for more mana.

But lifetap is our core mobility ability as destruction!

[xpose]

Of course they have to be very careful, one mistake and it's SoO all over again. A lot of opinions and complaints running wild here and especially on Blizz forums come from people who have no idea what they are talking about and barely have any experience with warlock changes let alone at 110.

This, if any changes occur it won't happen until around 7.2 and we can officially see the state warlocks are in with raid tier and artifact gear.

[FertsBlert]

For Demonology make Thal'kiels instant, DE an aura that you recast every 15 seconds or so and a button to force all minions to focus on a new target, done.
Still has ramp time but if played right you can target swap and hit with a omfg Thal'kiels whenever you want and DE as a maintenance buff means the ramp would be slightly reduced due to no need to rebuff between sets of minions.

Destro, revert to MoP.... tuning can be wherever you like but MoP destro lock was FUN and worked well, just make sure Chaos Bolt hits like a fucking truck even if everything else is weedy as hell for the waiting waiting waiting YEAH FUCK YOU feeling.

Aff, let other peoples damage set off seed. That's pretty much it for Aff.

Oh yeah give us back the Glyph of Nightmares effect.

[Maglen]

A few weeks from release is a really shitty time to realize there are major issues with all 3 of the specs.

Especially when the whole Beta, people have been bringing up these issues and they were ignored.

- - - Updated - - -

Most people do. If no one cared, no one would load Recount of Skada. It's extremely bad for player morale to play a class to the best of your ability and you know before you start that someone next to you can slack and they'll still get more reward for it - no one ever wants to be permanently second best, everyone needs their moment to shine, everyone needs that potential.

This is incorrect. If the spread between best and worst dps was only 5-10% that wouldn't be much of an issue but the problem is it's at times, much more than that. That simply shows a lack of tuning and a refusal to fix things.

[Gaidax]

I seriously have trouble with an attitude of "look, class X is was OP at time Y, it's OK to be overtuned as well".

I want to be good because I'm actually doing good, not because class is OP.

I understand my opinion is unpopular but really SoO was the time when playing warlock for me was a chorebore just because the competition was decided before I even cast one spell. At least in Sunwell we had Glaive Rogues, although the difficulty of playing warlock in PvE back then was so low, that any half-decent Destruction player nowadays is a frikkin Einstein in comparison.

[Maglen]

It feels like Blizzard keep trying to re-invent the class every other expansion, deliver something half baked and then don't want to fiddle too much because the class has recently got a lot of attention, regardless of how beneficial or detrimental that was.

Try every expansion since Wrath.

Cataclysm: Soul Shards
MOP- Burning Embers, Dark Apotheosis (Where they realized with minor tweaking, a lock could tank. Hello Demon Hunter models)
WoD- Fel Flame Removed, KCJ reworked. Death of mobility.

[Deleted]

I seriously have trouble with an attitude of "look, class X is was OP at time Y, it's OK to be overtuned as well".

I want to be good because I'm actually doing good, not because class is OP.

I understand my opinion is unpopular but really SoO was the time when playing warlock for me was a chorebore just because the competition was decided before I even cast one spell. At least in Sunwell we had Glaive Rogues, although the difficulty of playing warlock in PvE back then was so low, that any half-decent Destruction player nowadays is a frikkin Einstein in comparison.

I'll just mention it again. People are frustrated with mechanics and specific damage issues. Noone is asking for every warlock spec to get a flat 20% damage buff.

Clunky gameplay (Rain of Fire 3 shards + cast time + dot on ground, Demonic Empowerment CONSTANTLY, Seed of Corruption not triggering from other players' damage), lack of utility (Healthstone is worse than a simple healing potion, gateway can be annoying to set up and is either useful or not depending on the fight, we don't have a baseline interrupt). Then we have destruction, with chaos bolt that hits like a wet noodle, mastery that makes all abilities other than chaos bolt basically have two crit chances which results in a huge spread of possible damage (For chaos bolt as well), and just generally a lot of things that don't interact much with anything. Rain of Fire costs shards, doesn't really interact with anything. Incinerate doesn't really interact with anything. Dimensional Rift doesn't really interact with anything.

I don't want to be default nr. 1 dps. I want a more interesting class, similar to what pretty much every single other spec in Legion got (With some exceptions), and I want to know that if my gear is better and I'm playing better than the fire mage or mm hunter next to me, I'll also be doing more damage than him.

[Anoregon]

I just hope all the feedback in the "calling all voices" threads actually matter. There is a huge amount of consensus on issues like Demonic Empowerment being terrible, and weak chaos bolt and soul shards being crappy for Destro, but both of these issues would probably require fairly significant design/mechanic changes - not just numbers tuning. That's not something that Blizzard devs tend to do in any reasonable time frame.

[Deleted]

I just hope all the feedback in the "calling all voices" threads actually matter.

Absolutely not.

Blizzard has a reputation for giving a rats ass about their playerbase, and its pretty common for shit specs or classes to stay that way through the entire addon, with blizzard denying anything being wrong with the class, only the backpedal at the end of the addon.

[Gaaz]

Totally agree with some of the posts here. Warlocks are criticised not only because "they do 20% less damage", but because of clunky design choices. Seed of corruption and Demonic Empowerment are just prime examples.
I can see raids stacking mages. Excellent cleave at no loss to single target damage, decent mobility, AoE is ok even in pure ST spec. Maybe MM hunters (though they are not that good actually) for single target / cleave. But locks...
It is a shame, because I enjoy warlocks very much aesthetically. I also do not mind some challenge in order to push my spec to a max. But mages simply work better even if you do not consider numbers tuning. Being a niche spec is not fun in my opinion. And with current mechanics, I doubt it will be possible to fix that without making warlocks extremely OP in certain situation (also not fun - at least for others)

[Grizelda]

There is a lot of low hanging fruit that they could address, but when I look at the absolute drivel being posted in the Blizz forums...how could they be expected get a realistic picture of Warlock issues?

So glad this happened at a time when we can expect longer expansions.

[Wenoxar]

I kind of believe @Gaidax is hired by blizzard and paid to spread the love.

[justjm]

I kind of believe @Gaidax is hired by blizzard and paid to spread the love.

Sorta had the same feeling myself.

[Finnigast]

Hello All,

Long time lurker - first time poster, be gentle...

So, I find it interesting that given the lengths people on this site go through to stay "up-to-date" on all the current happenings with the Warlock class, there is still so much dissension over what state Warlocks are currently in. After reading the majority of the threads here looking for some "conclusive" feedback on spec state for legion, I have found quite the spread of opinions and feedback.

- Locks are fine, I think *insert spec* is fun.
This appears to be the more casual player, for which spec viability is largely irrelevant. No real insight to be gathered here.

- When I play my lock on the Archimond fight, *insert class* does WAY more damage than me, and my rotation/damage/mechanics feel like garbage"
Absolutely irrelevant. Balance is based on 110 with Artifacts. Feedback based on performance at 100 with no artifacts (and using sets and class trinkets that won't be in place at 110) means nothing.

- I heard from *insert random supposed beta tester* that locks are fine/horrible/good at X/bad at Y/etc.
Anecdotal evidence from a second-hand source. Fun to read, but carries little actual substance.

- I heard/read feedback from *insert "reputable" source from beta* that locks are fine/horrible/good at X/bad at Y/etc.
Getting a bit more substance here. However, I have noticed that "Locks need some tweaking in a few areas, and are beat out by *insert class*, but overall aren't too bad", easily turns into "OMG, Locks are horrible and can't compete, *insert guild* said Locks can't compete and they aren't bringing any!"

There are others, but those seem to be the "patient zero" comments - everything else appears to spirals out from there.

My point is, if this varied, oft-uninformed, occasionally ignorant, feedback is what is gathered on this forum, I can only imagine how much worse it is on the Bnet forums. Given how difficult it is to find definitive, conclusive evidence as to how Locks perform in-raid, at 110, with Artifacts and Legendaries - is it any wonder that Blizz hasn't just taken the "feedback" and "fixed" Warlocks?

Don't get me wrong, I know there are broken and un-intuitive things with Lock mechanics that should be addressed. I see them, and anyone who tries to play lock at a half-way serious level sees them. However, before saying "the community has spoken - fix this shit", or "We have 1500 posts on how locks are broken, why aren't you doing something Blizz?", maybe we should keep in mind the quality of the feedback that Bliz is receiving. We can't seem to get consensus amongst the relatively small group here beyond "There are things that need fixing".

By all means, voice your concerns! However, unless you have actually played the most recent version of beta, at max tier, with all relevant Artifact/Legendaries, and are reasonably skilled, your "concerns" (regardless of how justified you think they are) most likely mean jack squat...

P.S.

I would love to have an "info thread" that can only be posted to by people who are active in beta. That way we can attribute at least a small degree of validity to what they are saying...