Frost Mage - Perma Icy Veins Theory

[Zatoitchi]

DISCLAIMER:

• This post is mostly theoretical and never been tested (I don't have beta access).
• Choices made are heavily influenced by personal preferences and are not to be taken as optimal.
• No DPS numbers / comparisons are present here.

Hey guys,

So everyone seems to be focusing on Fire right now since it's FotM spec. Personally, I enjoy Frost's style and theme and I intend to make it my main spec. So far I've mostly seen Frost discussions delve into how to optimize Glacial Spike or Ray of Frost damage. I find both abilities boring so I decided to take a different route.

Reading through the new talents, artifact traits, T19 set bonuses and legendary items, I found that a lot of them affect Icy Veins in one way or another. These effects has piqued my interest in finding a setup that can achieve Perma Icy Veins. After that, I wrote a small simulation program to simulate the casting sequence while tracking up time/cooldowns/stacks of various spells and see if Perma Icy Veins can be achieved or not.The setup:

Talents:

• 15 - Lonely Winter: This is purly personal and goes against the theory. I HATE PETS.
• 45 - Incanter's Flow: No room to waste time on casting other stuff.
• 60 - Frozen Touch: More FoFs!
• 100 - Thermal Void: Core of the setup.
• 30/75/90 - Irrelevant talents that don't affect Icy Veins in any way.

Artifact Traits:

• Shattering Bolts + Frozen Veins: More Frostbolt crits = lower Icy Veins cooldown.
• Clarity of Thought: More Brain Freeze procs = more Shatter comboes = more Icy Veins up time (via Thermal Void).
• PH: Better Fingers of Frost pooling.

Legendary Items:

• Hands: More Shatter Ice Lance = more Icy Veins up time (via Thermal Void).

Stats:

• Haste = ~54% from gear (100% while Icy Veins is up)
• Crit = 10% from gear (25% for Frostbolt with Shattering Bolts)
• Rest are irrelevant.

The simulator uses very simple priority system and assumes the following:

• Priority: Icy Veins > Fingers of Frost Ice Lance > Brain Freeze Cast Sequence (read next point) > Ebonbolt > Frozen Touch > Frozen Orb
• Brain Freeze Cast Sequence: With 100% haste you can Shatter combo Frostbolt > Flurry > 2 x Ice Lance
• Frozen Orb is simply modeled to grant one Fingers of Frost charge on cast. Other ticks are ignored.
• Casting Icy Veins while it's already up just adds the remaining time.

Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

As you can see from the results, Perma Icy Veins CAN be achieved. Keep in mind that even though the simulation assumes perfect conditions (e.g. standing still, zero latency, etc...), there are other factors that can improve your chances in achieving Perma Icy Veins:

• Water Jet for more Fingers of Frost charges.
• Artifact Relics can be used to imporve Frozen Veins and/or Clarity of Thought effects.
• Frozen Orb ticks can grant more Fingers of Frost charges.
• T19 set bonuses to improve Finger of Frost and Brain Freeze procs.

[gunner_recall]

This...this might be something I have to try.


i don't think taking lonely winter would be the worst thing you could do. Like you said, less time focusing on worrying about other stuff, more time ice lancing.

[H3ll]

Interesting idea.
I just see 1 problem with your talents. You want to pick up lonely winter. Bone chilling might be the best to pick up, because the water elemental is just to amazing at giving you additional ice lance procs. Event frost of ray might be good to fill in some small gaps during icy veins down time.

[Zatoitchi]

This...this might be something I have to try.


i don't think taking lonely winter would be the worst thing you could do. Like you said, less time focusing on worrying about other stuff, more time ice lancing.

I'd be interested in seeing your results

Interesting idea.
I just see 1 problem with your talents. You want to pick up lonely winter. Bone chilling might be the best to pick up, because the water elemental is just to amazing at giving you additional ice lance procs. Event frost of ray might be good to fill in some small gaps during icy veins down time.

Thanks. As I mentioned, I've picked Lonely Winter as a personal preference since I don't like managing pets. As for using Ray of Frost as a filler, casting Frostbolt would be better since it can proc FoFs and BFs.

[Frost1129]

The current default APL for Frost mages in SimC for Legion does, essentially, exactly this. It is the best way, by a long shot, to play Frost right now once Legion drops.

Without the legendary you can achieve 60-70% IV uptime (I think higher? I cannot remember the exact number). With Legendary, what you show as 100% uptime is achievable.

A small thing to note is the importance of banking FoF charges for upcoming IV uses. This has a pretty noticeable impact on IV uptimes.

From sim testing, LW is pretty awful - you really don't want to sacrifice the FoF gains from It's Cold Outside and Water Jet when your main focus is IV uptimes.

[Torian kel]

The current default APL for Frost mages in SimC for Legion does, essentially, exactly this. It is the best way, by a long shot, to play Frost right now once Legion drops.

Without the legendary you can achieve 60-70% IV uptime (I think higher? I cannot remember the exact number). With Legendary, what you show as 100% uptime is achievable.

A small thing to note is the importance of banking FoF charges for upcoming IV uses. This has a pretty noticeable impact on IV uptimes.

From sim testing, LW is pretty awful - you really don't want to sacrifice the FoF gains from It's Cold Outside and Water Jet when your main focus is IV uptimes.

Boy does this make me glad Fire is the top spec. This frost iteration looks unnerving as hell

[Obelisk Kai]

I sort of hope people get this to work.

Then when Blizzard deploys the nerf hammer on it, they may actually take the time to make Frost PVE viable.

It's a dream I have.

[Mechonics]

I just want to know how 54% haste is achievable....

[H3ll]

I just want to know how 54% haste is achievable....

With icy veins... you know, the thing this entire thread is about? :P

[Maverixx]

I just want to know how 54% haste is achievable....

Well that's kinda silly, but I achieved 47% preraid gear 849 ilvl, so yeah It's can be achieved, not to mention that we would use 2t19 instead of 4pc so more prim.haste/crit gear is available. I really think 4pc need to be redesigned
For example smth like "Increases Frostbolt's chance to grant a FoF by 10%" or smth like "Your Ice Lance with 25% chance will not consume FoF charge and will deal X% additional damage".

[Deleted]

With icy veins... you know, the thing this entire thread is about? :P

...
Haste = ~54% from gear (100% while Icy Veins is up)
...

[Noobles]

Doesn't icy veins only begin its reset, when it runs out?...however long after you manage to keep it up?

[Mechonics]

...
Haste = ~54% from gear (100% while Icy Veins is up)
...

Thanks lol... Ya try to help some people....but it's just not always worth it :P

[FrostyButt]

I sort of hope people get this to work.

Then when Blizzard deploys the nerf hammer on it, they may actually take the time to make Frost PVE viable.

It's a dream I have.

Frost isn't viable? Why? Exactly how far behind is Frost compared to Fire? Even if Frost is just 10% behind Fire, Frost will still be viable, but not optimal for min/maxers.

I have looked but I can't seem to find any posts showing numbers..

[Obelisk Kai]

Frost isn't viable? Why? Exactly how far behind is Frost compared to Fire? Even if Frost is just 10% behind Fire, Frost will still be viable, but not optimal for min/maxers.

I have looked but I can't seem to find any posts showing numbers..

The current assumption is that Fire is going to pull far ahead of both Frost and Arcane as we level and gear. At some point there will be a correction of some sorts, but we don't know when or how that will happen.

[Keiyra]

I dunno, critical mass going to 1.1 instead of 1.3 should put a bit of a damper on how much scaling they get from gear. May not be as much a blow out as people are assuming

[FrostyButt]

The current assumption is that Fire is going to pull far ahead of both Frost and Arcane as we level and gear. At some point there will be a correction of some sorts, but we don't know when or how that will happen.

This is why I hate the artifact weapons. No one knows for sure which spec is going to be viable for raids. So people are running around with their head cut off trying to figure out which weapon they're going to invest in first. Well, maybe not really because of the simulations. But still! Simulations can't predict what buffs/nerfs Blizzard is going to dish out.. So while Fire may be a safe bet, what happens if before raids unlock Blizzard buffs the shit out of Frost and now Frost is the best spec? People who min/max will have wasted all their AP into the Fire weapon.

I was under the assumption that with how long it takes to level artifact weapons, Blizzard would have all class specs be close to each other. Sure, I know some specs will shine on certain fights than others.. But I expected them all to at least be competitive and mythic viable.

[Obelisk Kai]

This is why I hate the artifact weapons. No one knows for sure which spec is going to be viable for raids. So people are running around with their head cut off trying to figure out which weapon they're going to invest in first. Well, maybe not really because of the simulations. But still! Simulations can't predict what buffs/nerfs Blizzard is going to dish out.. So while Fire may be a safe bet, what happens if before raids unlock Blizzard buffs the shit out of Frost and now Frost is the best spec? People who min/max will have wasted all their AP into the Fire weapon.

I was under the assumption that with how long it takes to level artifact weapons, Blizzard would have all class specs be close to each other. Sure, I know some specs will shine on certain fights than others.. But I expected them all to at least be competitive and mythic viable.

Remember fully maxed out Artifact weapons were tested on the PTR on the PVP server. That is probably the source of this knowledge that fire currently outdoes Frost and Arcane.

[Keiyra]

And worst case scenario, if you are truly concerned, you can scale your main artifact back by 1 rank, and have your offspec artifact be like 80% of the ranks of your main spec. Make sure to save some relics for your offspec artifact too.

(im not 100% certain, but wasn't there also a way to completely "refund" all your artifact power so you could respend it, but it cost you like your max rank worth of AP)?

[Deleted]

Simulations can't predict what buffs/nerfs Blizzard is going to dish out.. So while Fire may be a safe bet, what happens if before raids unlock Blizzard buffs the shit out of Frost and now Frost is the best spec? People who min/max will have wasted all their AP into the Fire weapon.

The team will avoid nerfing a spec from being a little too good to the worst so that you don't feel that all of your Artifact progression was a waste.

Ion explained it on gamescom like this. If fire will do 15% more dmg than arcane and frost they will nerf it by 9 - 14%.. The gap should be less than 5%, but order of specs should remain same.