do you think the EU will collapse?

[Noradin]

Why can't nations have treaties with one another and just guarantee freedom of movement, work, shared social securities if you work X no. of years in set country, etc. I mean it feels kinda useless to have a middle man, the EU beurocrats, to ratify and propose laws on behalf of two countries. Why don't we let set two countries do business directly!

Because it is incredibly ineffective to do each one seperately when they are all interdependent.

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If the EU is so advantageous to its member states then why are they trying to make an example out of Britain to try and dissuade other states from leaving, if the advantage of being in is not being punished for leaving then its a terrible system which needs either major reform/collapse/reconstruction post collapse.

They aren't, they just aren't trying very hard to take the fall for the UK's decision in their (the UK's) place.
They didn't threaten the UK, they made predicitons.

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Hold on, you need to explain how you can argue against something when you also claim not to understand what it is you are arguing against.

When you objectively make no sense then nobody has to understand how you came to your claims to reject them, you are the one who has to demonstrate how you arrived at your conclusions from sources you can name.

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The real goal of EU should be to bring such people together so they can share ideas, opinions and customs. When everyone is "the same" it's a dull world, one optimized for business and not for living.

There is nothing more "european" than for example a romanian marrying a polish women and having a kid, kid who get's to experience both cultures and who learns double making him a better individual than his parents!

Indeed, and that is why the EU is funding projects to preserve such culture and languages.

[Deleted]

Italy is the fourth (third if you don't count UK) economy of EU just behind France. Also a founder of the EU. The north is one of the richest place in the whole Europe.

Also, most of the Italy's debt is owned by italians.


And comparing Greece to Italy Lumbardy itself has an higher gpd than the whole Greece.

Economy size matters nothing, because they'll still be part of the EEG (there's no indication Italy would ever say no to freedom of movement requirement).

The difference is that they will not be relying on the EU's financial stability systems, which is the only thing that kept Italy afloat and will keep Italy afloat, because investors know that if something happens, it will not be as bad, but if they are out of the zone, they know it can be really bad, and since EU isn't required to help, they would be all on their own. That in itself will hurt Italy because it will severely diminish possible profits because of fleeing international investors. Who owns their debt matters little, because when Italian debt holders suffer due to say italian exit, they'll be knocking on your government doors to pay up, very fast.

In fact it's very unlikely a country is ever going to push a country to paying debt, because it's way less practical and will hurt them as well.

[xuros]

The EU is a necessity for europeans as well as the rest of the Western world and it's values.

Also this is basically a nation bashing thread.

Which nation was bashed?

[Noradin]

I have never heard anyone respond to the question, "Where are you from?" with "The EU" and I have lived and travelled extensively throughout the EU. Everyone uses their country, or sometimes region like Bavaria.

Yes, who would have thought, when asked by another EU citizen where they are from they answer by stating the name of the member state of the EU or the region?
What do you expect that when two people from the USA meet and one asks the other '"where are you from" the answer will be "America"? Really?

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That is not true at all, it would damage the economies of Germany, France, Spain, Ireland, etc., which is not beneficial.

Just giving in to the attempts at blackmail by the UK every time is even less beneficial.

[dribbles]

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, seems apt here. That said, the issue in the Netherlands seems to be a lack of voting in general and by the (dwindling) middle-class and working-class. That may end up swinging the vote massively in favour of the PVV.

Exactly how the Brexit vote was won, many many people who had never voted in their lives turned out to the polling stations on June 23rd. If a topic resonates above and beyond politics with the general population anything can happen.

You should never count your chickens against that.

[Deleted]

yeah well merkel didnt tell all these middle easterns to piss off either, so she is to blame

I don't even....

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To some degree, Italy and Spain leaving would upset the delicate balance of power in the EU. Which already favours the north western block (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Luxembourg), so to say that Italy leaving wouldn't present an issue is incorrect. It'll further the rift that is already present between the north and south and France would quickly find itself in the undesirable position of not being equal to Germany in regard to economical and political cloud.



Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, seems apt here. That said, the issue in the Netherlands seems to be a lack of voting in general and by the (dwindling) middle-class and working-class. That may end up swinging the vote massively in favour of the PVV.

An economy like Spain leaving would be lethal to the EU.
Italy us even bigger so yeah you can figure that out.

[Noradin]

"Stay a member or we will make you suffer economically" is a negative reason for membership.

But that wasn't what they said. It was "non-members do not get the same privileges as members do".

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And again you are missing the entire context of the conversation with Djalil.

Must be becasue you did not given any arguments just repeated some propaganda from the Brexit campain.

[Deleted]

To some degree, Italy and Spain leaving would upset the delicate balance of power in the EU. Which already favours the north western block (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Luxembourg), so to say that Italy leaving wouldn't present an issue is incorrect. It'll further the rift that is already present between the north and south and France would quickly find itself in the undesirable position of not being equal to Germany in regard to economical and political cloud.



Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, seems apt here. That said, the issue in the Netherlands seems to be a lack of voting in general and by the (dwindling) middle-class and working-class. That may end up swinging the vote massively in favour of the PVV.

PVV will need to get full majority if they want to push the referendum, there's no chance in hell any other party will support it. It's very unlikely they'll get that full majority either knowing how the Netherlands has voted and how mixed the country is. Wilders is popular, but not that popular either.

[Noradin]

"When it comes to the economy they have to lose".

Yes, that is a prediction, not a threat.

[Deleted]

Come on man... don't use totals, use per capita. If you're going to criticize my research at least make sure your comment makes sense. Those countries are only 3rd and 4th because they have big populations, not because they have great economies. They are significantly worse than most of the northern countries in per capita income and their economic situation is more similar to countries like Greece and Ireland than it is to Germany, the UK, and the Scandinavian countries.

Who the hell cares about pro capita. We're not measuring dicks. We're telling you a huge economy like Italy leaving would mark the end of the eu.

[Noradin]

yeah well merkel didnt tell all these middle easterns to piss off either, so she is to blame

So she upheld the treaties all european countries signed (long before the EU came around)--what an heinous act! Truly despicable!
Inviting all those terrorists!... Oh wait those were here before.

[Kalis]

When you objectively make no sense then nobody has to understand how you came to your claims to reject them, you are the one who has to demonstrate how you arrived at your conclusions from sources you can name.

Me make claims? Still waiting for you to tell me when I renounced my Cypriot citizenship. Any chance of an update, you clueless mug?

[Mayhem]

It wasn't meant as a direct quote, it was clearly intended to show a general stylistic idea. Holy fuck!

Even so, that´s still not reality. Membership should come with benefits, else what´s the point of it. Leaving the club then obviously comes with a loss.

So were are we right now on your rant against the EU?

The EC is doing what it was appointed to, going by your NYT link in accordance with the heads of states.
The UK isn´t treated unfair, the UK currently isn´t treated at all, because negotiations haven´t even started.
Leaving a union comes at a loss for the leaving member.

Did i miss something?

[Kalis]

Even so, that´s still not reality. Membership should come with benefits, else what´s the point of it. Leaving the club then obviously comes with a loss.

There is a difference between a loss of benefits and an intention to harm.

The rhetoric post-Brexit from some quarters was clearly intended as an intention to harm, Merkel at that time even went against what was coming out of the EU and has demonstrated that she had no intention of harming German interests out of spite.

So were are we right now on your rant against the EU?

The EU political body, not the EU. As I have stated a number of times, I have no issue with the EU itself.

[Mayhem]

Eventually, the EU will probably collapse. The US learned (under the Articles of confederacy) that having a bunch of states kind of acting as a country but kind of not- just really doesn't work. Most states did not want to give up power to a more central authority- I can't imagine that the members of the EU (which are actually individual countries) will.

I find it particularly funny that a union of countries, left a union of countries, because it´s becoming too much of a union of countries.

[minteK917]

No single rational country will harm its economy for bureaucrats in Brussel. Idiots can keep dreaming. Will it colapse now, probably not. But their position will be shown to be less impactful then most people think. Germany and France will already show that when push comes to shove, they do not care. And will deal with the UK independently when needed. Because there is nothing Brussel can do against those members. Equal say in an Union is a fantasy, a fantasy that never existed. Even Federal union never have equal value across all states. California is bigger the most european countries, its weight in the United states is more then Vermont due to that position.

[Theodarzna]

That is exactly how it happened. Back in the days when politicians were people and not reptilian, a bunch of people decided that fighting a devastating war every 35 years isn't really coolio so they set up the project.

Look at this
These are countries that were at war just a few years before the start of the project. Look at eastern Europe now. It's been 25 years since the collapse of the soviet union and their politicians are still farming fears.

If my grandparents still lived, I'd ask my great grandfather why he fought in the second world war, I doubt "For the European Union!" would leave his lips. And he was around to see its beginnings.

But the whole re-imagining of the two world wars as the founding wars of the EU is interesting. For a supposedly "Post Nationalist," entity you sure do seem insecure enough to need all the trappings of nationhood and thus furiously rewrite the history books in rather creative ways to make a nation, that isn't supposed to be a nation I thought.

[Kalis]

If my grandparents still lived, I'd ask my great grandfather why he fought in the second world war, I doubt "For the European Union!" would leave his lips. And he was around to see its beginnings.

But the whole re-imagining of the two world wars as the founding wars of the EU is interesting. For a supposedly "Post Nationalist," entity you sure do seem insecure enough to need all the trappings of nationhood and thus furiously rewrite the history books in rather creative ways to make a nation, that isn't supposed to be a nation I thought.

That is a deliberate misinterpretation of the foundation of the EU.

The EU came about due to the World Wars and a desire not to repeat them, not that the World Wars were fought to create the EU - only David Lammy thinks that and he is a retard.

[Deleted]

If my grandparents still lived, I'd ask my great grandfather why he fought in the second world war, I doubt "For the European Union!" would leave his lips. And he was around to see its beginnings.

But the whole re-imagining of the two world wars as the founding wars of the EU is interesting. For a supposedly "Post Nationalist," entity you sure do seem insecure enough to need all the trappings of nationhood and thus furiously rewrite the history books in rather creative ways to make a nation, that isn't supposed to be a nation I thought.

The second world war wasn't fought for "European union". You clearly misunderstood. During the aftermath of the war the political view of a United europe not going to war against each other every 30 years developed.

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That is a deliberate misinterpretation of the foundation of the EU.

The EU came about due to the World Wars and a desire not to repeat them, not that the World Wars were fought to create the EU - only David Lammy thinks that and he is a retard.

Exactly. That's what I meant.

Who's David lammy?

[Kalis]

Exactly. That's what I meant.

Who's David lammy?

Labour MP for Tottenham, who claimed on a news programme that a million Indians died in WWII for the European project and promptly got destroyed by another panellist.

Everyone in Tottenham is a retard, so he fits in.

Here he is...