do you think the EU will collapse?

[Tipton]

The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step

So basically the EU needs to exist to stop Germany invading France? Integration or not, that would of never happened after WW2 anyway. If anything the EU is making war more likely by stagnating economies and massive youth unemployment.

[Acidbaron]

He absolutely is and the words of one of the founder of the EU project clearly make a different point.

Which was because the second world war was started from the social unrest of an economic crisis in germany. I actually read his message wrong, i though it stated that due to economic upturn no longer wars were coming not due to it just simply no longer happening.

Blame it on working late on a hot ass day, my bad.

[Deleted]

I recognize its relevance, but it isn't an answer to my question and your insistence that is sort of draws me to the parallels with David Lammy.

You are moving the goalpost and claiming I ask a question that I did not ask.

So, even though we have well established that the EU was created as a result of the destruction caused by ww2, in order to make sure that war between European countries would be "not only unthinkable but materially impossible", you still fail to recognise ww2 as a defining moment in the European Union project because.... it wasn't fought by PRO EU VS ANTI EU?
well... That's a weird point. Not sure why you're hanging on to it.

[Acidbaron]

So basically the EU needs to exist to stop Germany invading France? Integration or not, that would of never happened after WW2 anyway. If anything the EU is making war more likely by stagnating economies and massive youth unemployment.

Germany was targeted in this speech as economic downturn and social unrest caused by mostly the result of ww1, was the cause of world war two. If you know your history you know why this was written as it was and can look beyond merely the nations involved but more importantly the cause and effect.

[Deleted]

So basically the EU needs to exist to stop Germany invading France? Integration or not, that would of never happened after WW2 anyway. If anything the EU is making war more likely by stagnating economies and massive youth unemployment.

Why are you so sure that two individual countries wouldn't go to war after ww2?
The EU made war between European countries impossible by interlinking their economies. If France invades Germany, everything collapse and we all go back to the donkey.

[Deleted]

have any large scale union of countries ever lasted in all of the worlds history?

Germany and Italy are both countries which used to be a bunch of smaller countries, that's from the top of my head. Then there's the UK as well...

[Kalis]

If France invades Germany, everything collapse and we all go back to the donkey.

That is about 1987 in Cyprus, so not so bad.

[Deleted]

Germany and Italy are both countries which used to be a bunch of smaller countries, that's from the top of my head. Then there's the UK as well...

Offtopic but... Man, respect to you for having weather report in your signature.

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That is about 1987 in Cyprus, so not so bad.

They can adapt quickly then.

[Deleted]

Offtopic but... Man, respect to you for having weather report in your signature.

Jaco Pastorius is God.

[Kalis]

They can adapt quickly then.

Stick a Mercedes badge on a donkey and the Cypriots will be happy as pigs in shit.

[Deleted]

Jaco Pastorius is God.

Oh God. Three views of a secret opened my mind.

[Theodarzna]

So, even though we have well established that the EU was created as a result of the destruction caused by ww2, in order to make sure that war between European countries would be "not only unthinkable but materially impossible", you still fail to recognise ww2 as a defining moment in the European Union project because.... it wasn't fought by PRO EU VS ANTI EU?
well... That's a weird point. Not sure why you're hanging on to it.

As a result is a very different statement than "War fought in its name."

My current relationship is a response largely to a breakup with a previous boyfriend, I cannot then say I broke up with that last boyfriend FOR this new relationship? Get it? Noe of the angry fights and bickering of the past relationship took place in the name of the new boyfriend.

I note its importance but it isn't relevant to what I said and you hanging on to that point makes me think the Lammy's of the world must be in good company.

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Germany and Italy are both countries which used to be a bunch of smaller countries, that's from the top of my head. Then there's the UK as well...

And how many died to make that happen? In the UK you had wars of conquest, at times ethnic cleansing and things that today would be called war crimes. Wales, Ireland, and Scotland did not come into the Union in ways I think our modern sensibilities would approve of.

Even the US has that as well.

[Mayhem]

yeah put your cod skills to use lmao, you would prolly just shake cos your shit scared and drop the gun like most people would, stop trying to act all G.I.JOE online

I´m not trying to act like G.I.JOE. You wouldn´t take up arms as a last resort?

[Theodarzna]

I´m not trying to act like G.I.JOE. You wouldn´t take up arms as a last resort?

The last resort thing sort of betrays the valor of self-sacrifice. You won't sacrifice for the cause unless you have no other choices. While mostly a sensible positions to have to does reflect that you won't endure hardship or misery for the cause unless its your only option. Meaning, and correct me if I am wrong, but you'd abandon the EU if greener pastures opened up.

[Deleted]

And how many died to make that happen? In the UK you had wars of conquest, at times ethnic cleansing and things that today would be called war crimes. Wales, Ireland, and Scotland did not come into the Union in ways I think our modern sensibilities would approve of.

So what are we arguing about? The EU was formed after WW2 to prevent a bloodbath like that from ever happening again. Europe has never been as peaceful as it is right now, except for the 19th century, and even then the 19th century's peace was more like a cold war rather than actual peace.

[Theodarzna]

So what are we arguing about? The EU was formed after WW2 to prevent a bloodbath like that from ever happening again. Europe has never been as peaceful as it is right now, except for the 19th century, and even then the 19th century's peace was more like a cold war rather than actual peace.

I am going the Kuntantee's point and expanding a bit to say, Unlike other countries that are forged in hardship, the EU is created to avoid future hardship. That neither inspires loyalty nor forges a nation but instead is a weak thing that will turn to dust in the face of adversity. The EU identity is created in prosperity and convenience. It will be forgotten when the very convenience and prosperity that created it ceases to exist. There is a reason why national identities persist; they are forged in hardship. When the party of prosperity runs dry, the EU will come apart. Heck the prosperity seems to be already dead for many of its people.

The United States (And I only make the comparison because others keep saying United States of Europe) on the other hand has a war FOUGHT FOR IT. Not a war that in response they decided to form a country.

So as a comparison, the American War of Independence was fought very much to create a new nation free of a colonial overlord. People willingly gave their lives for the "American Project."

What you and Djalil seem to be engaged in is a Lammy style rewrite in which WW1 and WW2 which were fought for various reasons, none of which was to found the Steel and Coal commission or create the EU or create a new Unitary State of Europe. After that chaotic period some people came up with an idea, a few even thought of create a new Nation State out of it eventually.

The difference is the US is forged in the adversity of a struggle against something and a victory against that thing. The EU is created, well to avoid ever feeling hardship again. Kuntantee makes the salient point of asking, "Will the EU hold on when the hardships return and prosperity is over?" Maybe you are one of those types who believes the party will be everlasting and eternal. Who knows, but I think Kuntantee makes a solid point and I concur with his reasoning.

[Mayhem]

The last resort thing sort of betrays the valor of self-sacrifice. You won't sacrifice for the cause unless you have no other choices. While mostly a sensible positions to have to does reflect that you won't endure hardship or misery for the cause unless its your only option. Meaning, and correct me if I am wrong, but you'd abandon the EU if greener pastures opened up.

I believe that prior to fight every other option should be considered. None of these options is abandoning ship. However i also see little sense in sacrificing lifes for a lost cause.

[Deleted]

I don't understand this idea of yours that there is no defining moment in the creation of a United europe.
There clearly is. And it's one to be proud too to be honest since it didn't require another war. We had two already. Those great people worked a way to make sure we didn't have a third one.

You don't recognise that as a defining moment well that's your problem.

That's factually wrong, the dream of an united european continent exists ever since the Roman Empire collapsed. But the French Revolution was the defining moment.

[Independent voter]

That's factually wrong, the dream of an united european continent exists ever since the Roman Empire collapsed. But the French Revolution was the defining moment.

Djalil has a narrative and when it's strayed from, he falls to pieces. Just nod when he says stuff like that.

[Kalis]

Europe has never been as peaceful as it is right now, except for the 19th century, and even then the 19th century's peace was more like a cold war rather than actual peace.

I am not convinced it was that peaceful...


War of the Oranges (1801)

Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815)

Greek War of Independence (1821-1832)

French invasion of Spain (1823)

Liberal Wars (1828-1834)

First Carlist War (1833-1840)

Second Carlist War (1846-1849)

Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence (1848-1849)

First Schleswig War (1848-1851)

Wars of Italian Independence (1848–1866)

Crimean War (1854–1856)

Second Schleswig War (1864)

Austro-Prussian War (1866)

Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871)

Third Carlist War (1872-1876)

Serbo-Bulgarian War (1885)