Ret Paladin 7.0.3 DPS comparison

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

ugh... hate to repeat myself 2 years later...
Sims are Sims and NOT something that will tell how something may perform in raids. Especially not in Legion with well over 100 Legendary items to swing specs up and down from fight to fight. Sims aren't for telling how good a spec is for raiding, sims are there to show the max potential given the optimal conditions- raiding is anything but that. Even some very good sims that can include add waves and execute ranges and so on aren't remotely accurate enough to be used as a gage of what's good or not.
What you can do with sims is take their optimal ST performance, 3 Target Cleave and AoE (over short and long scenarios) and then make a list of strong ST specs, AoE specs and Cleave specs.
Specs that perform high in only 1 scenario is weaker than specs that perform high on 2 scenarios and so on.

Then add ALL of that to what "utility" or "raid tools" someone brings and then make your call.
Ret brings no raid tools, "top 10 dps" (numbers not at all final), this is what matters and what people should be basing any picks off.

[Taeldorian]

What you can do with sims is take their optimal ST performance, 3 Target Cleave and AoE (over short and long scenarios) and then make a list of strong ST specs, AoE specs and Cleave specs.
Specs that perform high in only 1 scenario is weaker than specs that perform high on 2 scenarios and so on.

Then add ALL of that to what "utility" or "raid tools" someone brings and then make your call.
Ret brings no raid tools, "top 10 dps" (numbers not at all final), this is what matters and what people should be basing any picks off.

Agreed with the last part aside from the raid tools.

Ret does have utility and raid tools, its just not great. We arent the only melee dps in that situation though. Fury and Arms only offer commanding shout (3m CD that increases health by 15% for a few seconds} which is meh. Enhancement shaman have no raid tools, windwalk totem will never be taken with Feral Lunge on the same tier. Frost and Unholy DKs have 1 grip which is leagues worse than the aoe mass grip Blood brings. Survival hunter brings nothing.

Theres a lot of melee that have shit raid tools or no raid tools at all and some have to make sacrifices in order to get access to any raid tools at all which is really bad for some classes like Enh. As you said though, most melee are going to be taken due to how many encounters they can do good on and how many encounters they are bad on.

As for ret in general, if our numbers get buffed to be on par with other melee or at least have a specific niche like ST/cleave theres no reason ret wont be taken. We offer Might which is decent, we offer Bop which is amazing but provided by both prot pally and hpally which are most likely already going to be taken to raids for progression, and we offer kings which later on will be really good due to its scaling with Ap. No reason we wouldnt be taken if our numbers are competitive.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The problem with GBoM is that Blizzard has said multiple times that Rets will be balanced around having 3 Greater Blessings out. Somehow Blizzard thinks Wisdom and Kings will be as strong as Might, which it never will except maybe some bizarre situations with gimmick strategy.

However it all falls back on my point.
If Rets, Warriors, Rogues, DKs and so on (melee) are balance in terms of throughput where some are higher on ST and some higher on Cleave (you know the drill) then what sets you aside is your "raid tools" and "utility". The better those are the more valued your class/spec is to bring to the raids and we haven't even touched on the point of Ret being a solo dps spec class while many other melees have 2 or 3 more (including those who can go ranged dps instead of melee, Hunter, Shaman, Druid)

[Taeldorian]

The problem with GBoM is that Blizzard has said multiple times that Rets will be balanced around having 3 Greater Blessings out. Somehow Blizzard thinks Wisdom and Kings will be as strong as Might, which it never will except maybe some bizarre situations with gimmick strategy.

However it all falls back on my point.
If Rets, Warriors, Rogues, DKs and so on (melee) are balance in terms of throughput where some are higher on ST and some higher on Cleave (you know the drill) then what sets you aside is your "raid tools" and "utility". The better those are the more valued your class/spec is to bring to the raids and we haven't even touched on the point of Ret being a solo dps spec class while many other melees have 2 or 3 more (including those who can go ranged dps instead of melee, Hunter, Shaman, Druid)

They said the exact opposite. They told us that we are not going to be balanced around having 3 GBoMs out. It was discussed in the other forum for ret, not sure if you missed it or not but thats what they said. It was a few months back. Can find it if you need proof of this most likely or you could just ask someone else. They said it a while ago.

As for the utility. Lets say all the melee are balanced. If you look at all of them and decide which ones to take based on utility and raid tools, you would take WW (has 2 speed boosts}, Ret paladin (Might going out on the 3 highest dps can help push an encounter during progress. Kings scales with Ap and will become better throughout EN. We also have Bop as well along with any offhealing thats needed}. Frost or Unholy DK (Gripping is still beneficial, even though its worse than mass grip}, and feral druid (speed boost}. Havoc DH (has a new version of smoke bomb in the form of a defensive.}

Those are the melee with the most beneficial utility and raid tools.

As for having more dps specs, yeah, that is a bit annoying. Nothing we can do about that though, and there shouldnt be a reason to switch from Feral to Boomy in a raid, you should already have both your range roster and melee roster set. Classes that have two melee specs though like Fury warriors or any pure obviously have better odds due to that reason.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

if GBoM is just "extra damage" for rets then we wouldn't be talking about them being benched but them being stacked... which is what we were talking about before the talent for Greater Blessings got nerfed, in the end removed.

[Taeldorian]

In the blue post, not sure where it was, they said they arent balancing us around putting out 3 GBoMs but they are trying to figure out a way to balance for 3 Blessings in general always being out. It was something along those lines, could probably find it if you looked hard enough. Now Im not sure if they actually went back on that since then considering it was a pretty long time ago.

As of currently though, Im not sure whats going on with Greater blessings. Wisdom sucks, kings is going to get better as we get more Ap and Might is just a proc chance for extra holy damage thats currently okay.

Either way though, this is still more utility and even better believe it or not than what some other melee specs have to offer. That along with Bop, I cant see why we wouldnt be taken if we were on par with others in terms of damage tbh.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

What they said was that Ret would be balanced around having any three Greater Blessings out.
What it means is that Ret will be underperforming if you don't have three blessings out, since ret is a DPSer that also means if you don't use 3 GBoM you'll underperform which is always bad and for the same reason Greater Blessings will always be x3 Might outside maybe a few strange settings where you're fighting a specific mechanic.

Furthermore since you can't change blessings in combat if you put Kings up on someone soaking something during the encounter you're essentially buffing someone for something that they'll use for a fraction of the encounter vs buffing the damage of your raid for the entirety of the encounter.
Giving healers more mana with Wisdom COULD be usable if it wasn't so awfully scaled at the moment. Even then you're more likely to run into damage issues during progress rather than healing issues.

[Taeldorian]

Ah okay misunderstood, or just forgot, was too long ago. Thanks for the clarification though, makes sense.

Thats still not bad though, and I can still see Kings being wanted for those specific mechanics, at least later on when it gets better due to scaling. Still better than some of the other melee specs utility and obviously better than the ones that dont have any utility to begin with or have to sacrifice something extremely important to get utility (aka enh shaman or WW monk}.

[Deleted]

What they said was that Ret would be balanced around having any three Greater Blessings out.
What it means is that Ret will be underperforming if you don't have three blessings out, since ret is a DPSer that also means if you don't use 3 GBoM you'll underperform which is always bad and for the same reason Greater Blessings will always be x3 Might outside maybe a few strange settings where you're fighting a specific mechanic.

And this is a problem with ret, people keep seeing it as 'the dps spec' of paladins, when really this time around it's just the offspec of a prot/holy paladin, a ret paladin can still be a support dps while outputting greater damage than holy and prot, but it isn't going to be a pure dps staple in a raid, and right now in extreme high play raid comps there is no space for 'support dps' like Ret and Disc priest.

There needs to be a shift in where those specs fit in if bizzard wants to take it down that route again, otherwise, the greater blessings, the healing talents and artifact abilities on those two are pointless.

Or the person playing those specs just has to be 50x better than your average player to even make it in a mediocre mythic raiding guild. Goodie.


If they can find a way to make it work better, even if it means giving ret more healing tools (I really like the whirlwind of healing out of divine storm) to make it a crutch in places where extreme mana drought and healing is a must. Then I'm game.

Support dps can be great but get rapidly out of hand if overtuned, so maybe this is dipping the toe into the water time for it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

which is kinda what it was in Cata and MoP. In Warlords and now in Legion utility and raid tools have been filtered out and ripped out leaving just the dps part of ret, which still isn't very good because it doesn't have the niches or flexibility to match other melee dpsers and definitely not ranged dpsers.

[snackfeat]

Regardless of how they balance us in regards to GBoM, I don't think it's gonna be a big deal. GBoM counts as roughly 5-7% of my total damage on a boss fight in the pre patch with 3 of them used.

[Taeldorian]

which is kinda what it was in Cata and MoP. In Warlords and now in Legion utility and raid tools have been filtered out and ripped out leaving just the dps part of ret, which still isn't very good because it doesn't have the niches or flexibility to match other melee dpsers and definitely not ranged dpsers.

LoH is utility
BoP is utility
Might is utility

Sure holy and Prot bring that too but there's no reason not to have more.

I'd take most of those over a 3m CD commanding shout. Id take all of those over survival considering it offers no utility, same with enhancement. Only if we're on par with every other melee though.

All of these are better than what most melee dps specs offer. You can say what you just said about almost every other melee dps spec in the game currently.

The only thing that's really stopping ret from being taken is damage. We don't have a specific niche and our damage is a bit lower than others. If that's fixed, there's no reason not to bring ret.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Might is not utility...
BoP is extremely situational.
LoH isn't something you usually can plan to use on someone and most of the time you'll end up using it on tanks or yourself.

[Taeldorian]

Might is not utility...
BoP is extremely situational.
LoH isn't something you usually can plan to use on someone and most of the time you'll end up using it on tanks or yourself.

Meant to say kings sorry. It's meh right now but will undoubtedly get better due to AP scaling.

BoP is very much wanted by anyone in progression. It's a life saver, sure it's situational but it can save a tanks life and in progression that's obviously really good.

LoH is also a life saver. Its not something you can plan for but that's how healing is. You can't really plan what you're going to use next because you never know what's going to happen (is he going to get hit by this or avoid it) aside from obvious damage spikes and predictable damage. It's situational but can still be really good for progression.

Kings is just beneficial overall (when it gets better obviously) as absorbs are always wanted.

I would easily take all of that over a 3 minute CD that gives 15% health for 10 seconds to anyone within 30 yards. I'd take all of those over a survival hunter who brings no utility and an enhancement shaman who brings no utility (unless the shaman gives up his mobility).

Most melee dps have had their utility taken away. I'm not sure if this is what you're saying but it seems you're saying ret is the only melee that lost some utility, which is obviously and largely untrue. Ret still has more utility than most melee. Some of our utility might be situational, sure, but id still take a majority of what we have over what most of the other melee offer. WW, Feral and Havoc being the exception.

Don't forget I'm talking about this like we are balanced and on par with all of the other melee. Or most of them. If that doesn't happen, then this doesn't matter obviously.

[OrcsRLame]

And this is a problem with ret, people keep seeing it as 'the dps spec' of paladins, when really this time around it's just the offspec of a prot/holy paladin, a ret paladin can still be a support dps while outputting greater damage than holy and prot, but it isn't going to be a pure dps staple in a raid, and right now in extreme high play raid comps there is no space for 'support dps' like Ret and Disc priest.

There needs to be a shift in where those specs fit in if bizzard wants to take it down that route again, otherwise, the greater blessings, the healing talents and artifact abilities on those two are pointless.

Or the person playing those specs just has to be 50x better than your average player to even make it in a mediocre mythic raiding guild. Goodie.


If they can find a way to make it work better, even if it means giving ret more healing tools (I really like the whirlwind of healing out of divine storm) to make it a crutch in places where extreme mana drought and healing is a must. Then I'm game.

Support dps can be great but get rapidly out of hand if overtuned, so maybe this is dipping the toe into the water time for it.

This is total bullshit. Ret is a full dps spec and not at all comparable to disc, which is actually a dps/healer hybrid. Also define "average player" and "mediocre mythic raiding guild." Somehow I doubt either of those mean what you think they mean.

[Deleted]

Grips are next to useless in a raid and Ferals and Shamans have horrible defensives compares to Rets

BoP and LoH are still a thing sitting in your spell bars that are very useful for prog. I'm sorry but Rets are not lacking in the utility department

What?! Grips are amazing! Do you know how useful it is to group up straggling adds? Unholy has 2 grips and death shield. That is really good utility. The only comparable thing Ret has is Divine intervention. BoP is always marginally useful, but they have made most things go through Divine shield.

The only question mark are the greater blessings. The DPS one is daft and does nothing except making our DPS a bit less crappy. Kings and wisdom would be great IF they got buffed. If those blessings become worth it, then yeah, we got good utility. If not, the blessing system is completely useless.

- - - Updated - - -

What they said was that Ret would be balanced around having any three Greater Blessings out.
What it means is that Ret will be underperforming if you don't have three blessings out, since ret is a DPSer that also means if you don't use 3 GBoM you'll underperform which is always bad and for the same reason Greater Blessings will always be x3 Might outside maybe a few strange settings where you're fighting a specific mechanic.

Furthermore since you can't change blessings in combat if you put Kings up on someone soaking something during the encounter you're essentially buffing someone for something that they'll use for a fraction of the encounter vs buffing the damage of your raid for the entirety of the encounter.
Giving healers more mana with Wisdom COULD be usable if it wasn't so awfully scaled at the moment. Even then you're more likely to run into damage issues during progress rather than healing issues.

What i'm thinking is you put kings on your tanks in order to save healer mana. But again, its a bit daft when that is wisdom's purpose, and the extra damage of might will make the encounter end faster, so in theory it's not worth it except in cases where your tanks are getting battered constantly.

God... i hope we get some buffs soon.

[Hashcrypt]

The damage provided by Might should just be incorporated into Rets base abilities.

Might should then be changed to "increase prime stat by X".

Wisdom and Kings should get buffed a bit.

Only one of each blessing may be active per paladin.

Ret now has true utility for those complaining that BoM isn't utility.

[Taeldorian]

@Nemmar Kings will be good, it's just a matter of when. I guess you could calculate it, but eh. It scales with AP so it'll get better as we go along. If they buffed it now, due to the fact it scales it would inevitably receive a nerf later down the line. Not so sure I trust them with nerfing and such.

As for DK utility, it's okay. Blood DKs already have mass grip, there really shouldn't be straggling adds with that but Grip is still useful.

Either way, BoP, LoH and Kings are all utility. Survival hunters and enhancement shamans have no utility, Arms and Fury have a 3m CD that increase health to everyone by 15% within 30 yards for 10s. I wouldn't take that over anything a ret could bring. Not to mention we have off heals to offer as well.

The only melee that still have exceptional utility are WW monks (good speed boosts), Feral Druids (good speed boost)Havoc DHs (new version of smoke bomb in the form of a defensive) and Unholy DK (two grips). Many other melee offer little to nothing in terms of utility. I'd take ret over most melee if damage was balanced honestly. No idea why anyone wouldn't if that were the case.

As for actual blessings, it really depends on what your raid needs during progression. Are your tanks dieing? Use kings. Are your healers going OOM often? Use wisdom. Are you not able to push the encounter fast enough? Use Might. That's only if they were all actually useful though.

[Deleted]

This is total bullshit. Ret is a full dps spec and not at all comparable to disc, which is actually a dps/healer hybrid. Also define "average player" and "mediocre mythic raiding guild." Somehow I doubt either of those mean what you think they mean.

Average player. Pugs/LFR/World Content
Average raider. Normal/Heroic Participants.
Mediocre Mythic Guild. Not top 500 guild, raids it anyway, paces slowly.

And No it isn't bullshit, it is comparable, the healing ret can achieve if specced properly later on is quite interesting and if given a boost would be a fun hybrid spec.

Also why so angry?

I never said it wasn't a full dps spec, I said it is right now, but the way it's balanced isn't quite strong enough and the blessings only exacerbate the confusion of why would you provide ways for ret to gimp their own damage at the cost of shields, mana regen and healing.

[Reick]

@Nemmar
The only melee that still have exceptional utility are WW monks (good speed boosts), Feral Druids (good speed boost)Havoc DHs (new version of smoke bomb in the form of a defensive) and Unholy DK (two grips). Many other melee offer little to nothing in terms of utility. I'd take ret over most melee if damage was balanced honestly. No idea why anyone wouldn't if that were the case.

The best utility bring by any melee and by far is the commanding shout from warrior, not even mention it make everything you wrote irrelevant. x')