Momentum vs Nemesis

[Shana Fenix]

Playing my DH on live servers for a bit I got used to using Fel Rush for damage pretty quickly and it's really fun to do.
I know however that using VR for damage and doing that 180° turn around for positioning mid-fight will never be something I enjoy.
IMO they need to remove VR from Momentum and either remove Demon Blades for a talent that's not tied to having a buttom removed or using weird and unintuitive camera movement or turn Appetite into something much less RNG based.
I also wish Fel Rush and / or Fel Eruption would see some love in terms of getting balanced to the other two talents in their respective tiers.
It's really not much I'm asking for when I just want an alternative to the minimalistic quirk I have with the class I otherwise enjoy thoroughly and I don't get why a ton of people go "YOU NEED TO STOP PLAYING DH THEN" when someone brings it up. Talents are there to be a CHOICE after all.

[mitre27]

Playing my DH on live servers for a bit I got used to using Fel Rush for damage pretty quickly and it's really fun to do.
I know however that using VR for damage and doing that 180° turn around for positioning mid-fight will never be something I enjoy.
IMO they need to remove VR from Momentum and either remove Demon Blades for a talent that's not tied to having a buttom removed or using weird and unintuitive camera movement or turn Appetite into something much less RNG based.
I also wish Fel Rush and / or Fel Eruption would see some love in terms of getting balanced to the other two talents in their respective tiers.
It's really not much I'm asking for when I just want an alternative to the minimalistic quirk I have with the class I otherwise enjoy thoroughly and I don't get why a ton of people go "YOU NEED TO STOP PLAYING DH THEN" when someone brings it up. Talents are there to be a CHOICE after all.

Silly person, don't you know there can only ever be a single playstyle within a spec? Forget about the fact that DH's only have one spec, their talent choices should be obvious and force a specific playstyle, forget about the two other talents in each tier, they're just for show....

But seriously, they can have the clunky(IMO) momentum playstyle as best and have a more stable (As in not leaping everywhere) spec that is like 5% behind at most, but they've failed, just the first tier talent choice alone is a flat 10% damage gain over the other two, then when you add in prepared and momentum, it's what, 20% ahead? It's a joke.

[Deleted]

Silly person, don't you know there can only ever be a single playstyle within a spec? Forget about the fact that DH's only have one spec, their talent choices should be obvious and force a specific playstyle, forget about the two other talents in each tier, they're just for show....

But seriously, they can have the clunky(IMO) momentum playstyle as best and have a more stable (As in not leaping everywhere) spec that is like 5% behind at most, but they've failed, just the first tier talent choice alone is a flat 10% damage gain over the other two, then when you add in prepared and momentum, it's what, 20% ahead? It's a joke.

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

What I especially enjoy are people calling stuff with more than 2 buttons to press and some timers to track "clunky". What even gives you satisfaction when playing a game?

[Akachan]

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

What I especially enjoy are people calling stuff with more than 2 buttons to press and some timers to track "clunky". What even gives you satisfaction when playing a game?

Why not? At the end of the day you're still doing more dps than the people playing nemesis. Isn't that the point, to do more damage thus ensuring momentum build > nemesis build? Or are you sweaty momentum tryhards' self esteem so low and brittle that you have to prove to other people that you have "extreme skill and awareness" when it comes to WoW demon hunters.

P.S. No one is impressed.

[Zeds Dead]

Every single talent that supports momentum build is also better than its counter parts.

We honestly only have one playstyle.

[mitre27]

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

What I especially enjoy are people calling stuff with more than 2 buttons to press and some timers to track "clunky". What even gives you satisfaction when playing a game?

Extreme skill my ass, maybe on a few fights it may be difficult to pull off but on most it's not, don't delude yourself.

You can't say that the single fel rush talent (First tier) giving 10% damage is balanced.


I actually dislike demon blades, but i hate prepared and the other option is too clunky for raids (Having to move to pick up orbs is silly when you have like 8 people ontop of you as well as huge boss models.

And i call it clunky because of all the movement, not because it's complex (Because it's not)

I used to play a sub/assa rogue but i'm not really feeling either specs anymore.


You shouldn't be forced into one playstyle or be unable to even get a spot, because that's how it is when two talent builds are over 20% apart.

First tier talent needs a nerf, it should either return fury or increase damage, doing both makes it so there's no choice.

Momentum is fine, it's not too far ahead of nemesis, and requires more skill to pull off so being a bit ahead is fine.

Prepared is too strong when compared to the third option, when compared to demon blades after nerf it's about right, so the third talent needs a buff/rework (IDK maybe if you don't pick up the orbs after x amount of time it auto picks it up, much more suited to a raid environment)


I just can't believe they have made a mobile class and force them to use all their mobility skills as a means to actively dps with no real options, a big failure in my eyes.

[Deleted]

I just can't believe they have made a mobile class and force them to use all their mobility skills as a means to actively dps with no real options, a big failure in my eyes.

Maybe you should play something else? I mean there are literally 12 other melee specs that sit still behind the boss and you are bitching when there finally is something different, oh my days.

[Hexxidecimal]

Playing my DH on live servers for a bit I got used to using Fel Rush for damage pretty quickly and it's really fun to do.
I know however that using VR for damage and doing that 180° turn around for positioning mid-fight will never be something I enjoy.
IMO they need to remove VR from Momentum and either remove Demon Blades for a talent that's not tied to having a buttom removed or using weird and unintuitive camera movement or turn Appetite into something much less RNG based.
I also wish Fel Rush and / or Fel Eruption would see some love in terms of getting balanced to the other two talents in their respective tiers.
It's really not much I'm asking for when I just want an alternative to the minimalistic quirk I have with the class I otherwise enjoy thoroughly and I don't get why a ton of people go "YOU NEED TO STOP PLAYING DH THEN" when someone brings it up. Talents are there to be a CHOICE after all.

I have since just started hitting Throw Glaive or Eye Beam after VR. I don't bother trying to VR through the boss anymore.

Also on some bosses you can move closer inside their Hitbox then VR and still be in melee

[The Archmage]

Maybe you should play something else? I mean there are literally 12 other melee specs that sit still behind the boss and you are bitching when there finally is something different, oh my days.

Yeah but you seem to not be getting what he's/we're saying. I am perfectly fine and i actually pretty enjoy to dash in and out, timing movement for maximum performance and uptime on targets in terms of avoiding dangers. I feel that it's exactly how a mobile class should be played. What i don't like is the set of talents that transform a skillfull and custom gameplay into a mathematic rotation: 1 movement ability every x seconds in order to optimally maintain a buff. That has to do simply with a tracking timer, nothing more. No skill involved. A computer could do it much better than any human player could. And that deprives from the spec imho, instead of adding to it.

[Delekii]

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

What I especially enjoy are people calling stuff with more than 2 buttons to press and some timers to track "clunky". What even gives you satisfaction when playing a game?

Momentum proponents spend half their time saying that momentum doesn't change the rotation and that you will be using the abilities anyway, so if you don't like it go away, and then the other half saying that momentum is a high skill talent that should be the highest dps.

These two things are mutually exclusive. Pick one. Either it is the class default for all talents in that line, or it is a high skill change to the rotation.

[mitre27]

Maybe you should play something else? I mean there are literally 12 other melee specs that sit still behind the boss and you are bitching when there finally is something different, oh my days.

Actually i'm bitching because there's a single playstyle to the spec, i know, reading is hard for you but please try before commenting.

I don't care that the momentum playstyle exists, despite it being quite clunky, but since blizzard have clearly said they want demon hunters to be an easy class to play, it seems odd that they're forcing this type of playstyle, and if you pick the easier path you aren't even close to viable.

Don't get me wrong, i do think the non momentum playstyle is a bit too simple, but that can be fixed.


Also, if any other class interested me, i wouldn't be posting about DH.

[Flumpus]

Personally, I'd like to see Momentum changed in the future to a slightly lower damage buff that lasts longer, so it becomes less of a "colossus smash" play style that revolves around opening windows for bigger damage on our big abilities and more of one that becomes about maintaining the damage buff as close to 100% of the time as possible throughout a fight.

It really doesn't make sense that Momentum and Nemesis have the same damage buff, but one has more total uptime and is more reliable in AoE rotations, while the other has less uptime and is a lengthy cooldown. If Momentum had less damage but near 100% uptime, while Nemesis was higher damage but on a cooldown, I think the two would have a MUCH better chance to carve out their niche uses for themselves.

As far as Fel Eruption goes... eh.

[Dimzum]

Momentum proponents spend half their time saying that momentum doesn't change the rotation and that you will be using the abilities anyway, so if you don't like it go away, and then the other half saying that momentum is a high skill talent that should be the highest dps.

These two things are mutually exclusive. Pick one. Either it is the class default for all talents in that line, or it is a high skill change to the rotation.

If people are saying momentum doesn't change the rotation they are being silly. People ARE saying, you are using fel rush regardless of what talents you use. You are not necessarily using vengeful retreat and unless you have momentum you can use VR>FR back to back with no penalty. That's a bit different than "doesn't change the rotation"

I just can't believe they have made a mobile class and force them to use all their mobility skills as a means to actively dps with no real options, a big failure in my eyes.

I'm pretty sure the philosophy now is that Demon Hunters use their mobility for combat (instead of just pure mobility purposes). No other class will be as mobile or moving more during combat than a DH.

[Schizoide]

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

Yes, I do.

But ideally the talent that opts-out of rotational repositioning would add gameplay elsewhere, via a procced ability or maybe a DoT.

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Every single talent that supports momentum build is also better than its counter parts.

We honestly only have one playstyle.

Exactly right. There are no competitive choices in the DH talent tree that change its gameplay.

[Hexxidecimal]

Yes, I do.

But ideally the talent that opts-out of rotational repositioning would add gameplay elsewhere, via a procced ability or maybe a DoT.

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Exactly right. There are no competitive choices in the DH talent tree that change its gameplay.

Competitive in what sense exactly? I am not disagreeing just clarifying. Do you mean, for progression raiding or any content non-momentum is way too low or normal or heroic raiding it's too low?

[Lucrece]

Competitive in what sense exactly? I am not disagreeing just clarifying. Do you mean, for progression raiding or any content non-momentum is way too low or normal or heroic raiding it's too low?

Not just raiding, let's be honest here. It's not like Nemesis is useful for questing, dungeons, or aoe scenarios. Nemesis is exactly a RAID talent, given its nature as a long cooldown meant for a single target.

Momentum is just flat out better at everything for anything that isn't PvP.

[Schizoide]

Competitive in what sense exactly? I am not disagreeing just clarifying. Do you mean, for progression raiding or any content non-momentum is way too low or normal or heroic raiding it's too low?

Really for anything other than very specific boss fights with minute-long burst damage requirements, which are pretty unusual. They're very close on single-target fights which often last longer than a minute. The main difference is that Momentum works on common AE, and a 2 minute cooldown with a long 1 minute duration like Nemesis really doesn't.

[Hexxidecimal]

Not just raiding, let's be honest here. It's not like Nemesis is useful for questing, dungeons, or aoe scenarios. Nemesis is exactly a RAID talent, given its nature as a long cooldown meant for a single target.

Momentum is just flat out better at everything for anything that isn't PvP.

I am not arguing momentum is better, that was never a question for me. When someone says "not competitive" it can mean a lot of things. What percent DPS are we talking here in different scenario's. WHen someone says better, how much better is the questions I want to know as well. This is why response was asking specifically if it was "too low".

For example me and my friend will be doing mythic + dungeons. We don't really have enough to raid and aren't really interested. I will be playing momentum because I prefer it. However my buddies may want to try something else. However if it's going to VERY difficult for that person to reach 70% -80% of the same DPS than I will get with momentum then they may go else where. If the % is like 85-95% they may stick with it. Competitive for us filthy casuals is a whole different scale for someone who is progression raiding.

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Really for anything other than very specific boss fights with minute-long burst damage requirements, which are pretty unusual. They're very close on single-target fights which often last longer than a minute. The main difference is that Momentum works on common AE, and a 2 minute cooldown with a long 1 minute duration like Nemesis really doesn't.

If you had to throw a % in dungeons, how much less effective would you say?

[Schizoide]

Like I said, the two talents are very close on boss fights but far apart on trash. I hate the momentum playstyle myself (pushing uptime, timing abilities for the 4s window, etc) and simply plan to not do it. Even so I'm still taking Momentum because it works on AE and Nemesis doesn't.

Dungeons have a ton of trash and AE where you won't be using Nemesis much. So the talent has very little value for most of your time playing in a dungeon.

[mitre27]

Competitive in what sense exactly? I am not disagreeing just clarifying. Do you mean, for progression raiding or any content non-momentum is way too low or normal or heroic raiding it's too low?

Mythic raiding and mythic+ dungeons are the only play it will matter much, heroic raids and dungeons won't be a huge deal evern doing 20% or so less damage than the optimal spec.

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I'm pretty sure the philosophy now is that Demon Hunters use their mobility for combat (instead of just pure mobility purposes). No other class will be as mobile or moving more during combat than a DH.

Thing is, on some fights (I think only 1 so far in legion but that will change) our movement spec will be near impossible, and if our other builds are useless, we won't be able to get a spot, our talent build needs to be much closer, the first tier needs to be changed, we shouldn't have to fel rush on CD regardless of later choices all because of that one insanely OP talent (Fel mastery or w/e that tier 1 talent is)