1. #1141
    Mechagnome Rixarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    737
    The nerfs to Frost legendary aren't something anyone should be worried about. Frost being viable only if it has that Legendary is a terrible idea. A better start would be to just buff Frost as a spec. It's less mobile than Unholy, so ideally Howling Blast/Frost Fever should be doing a ton more damage to compensate.
    I'm just here to complain, if I'm being honest

  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    People need to remember that Blizz has specifically said that class tuning, artifact tuning, and legendary tuning is all separate. Those bracers were likely a little too high and needed to be tuned down. If the class itself needs a boost though, it will get that seperatly.
    That is what bugs me, they are trying to balance and tune 3 different things separately while all 3 do the same thing and each can effect the other in major and different ways. Seems like a tuning nightmare that is going to screw over some specs because they take a chain saw to something a simple kitchen knife could cut or on the other end of the spectrum they over compensate.

  3. #1143
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    The nerfs to Frost legendary aren't something anyone should be worried about. Frost being viable only if it has that Legendary is a terrible idea. A better start would be to just buff Frost as a spec. It's less mobile than Unholy, so ideally Howling Blast/Frost Fever should be doing a ton more damage to compensate.
    Well you're slow and immobile, so basically as far as class fantasy goes, DK's are good to go.

    It seems that the only part of the DK class fantasy that Blizz is emphatic about "getting right" is being slow and immobile.

    Because the "hard hitting when close" portion of the class fantasy is effectively being ignored.

    This is especially true for Frost unfortunately.

    I'd really like for Frost to take off, because dealing with all the pets and fiddly bits of UH can be a tad annoying at times.

  4. #1144
    They can't make frost do more damage on target than other classes for the simple fact that ALL melee will have close to full uptime on a boss.

    So frost needs to be buffed in flexibility and utility.

    From the very beginning, death knights were immobile because they had plenty of ranged damage attacks. Now that icy touch is gone, and howling blast has been gutted to only do worthwhile damage with Rime, which can only trigger from Obliterate, frost DK no longer has ranged damage.

    That needs to be fixed. DK's are as much ranged casters as enhancement shamans are (and enhancement shamans also lost their ranged nukes while not gaining much better mobility, which is why they're shit in pvp too).

  5. #1145
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    They can't make frost do more damage on target than other classes for the simple fact that ALL melee will have close to full uptime on a boss.

    So frost needs to be buffed in flexibility and utility.

    From the very beginning, death knights were immobile because they had plenty of ranged damage attacks. Now that icy touch is gone, and howling blast has been gutted to only do worthwhile damage with Rime, which can only trigger from Obliterate, frost DK no longer has ranged damage.

    That needs to be fixed. DK's are as much ranged casters as enhancement shamans are (and enhancement shamans also lost their ranged nukes while not gaining much better mobility, which is why they're shit in pvp too).
    It's funny how they seem to have forgotten the whole point of making death knights slow in the first place. I remember back in the day their claim was to make them less mobile but give them more spells than your average melee dps. Back in wrath this was the case. Dks had so many ranged attacks and abilities and were slow because of it. Icy Touch, Death Coil, Death and Decay, Howling Blast, Blood Boil, Pestilence, Chains of Ice, Death Grip... I'm probably forgetting some even. Now not all of these were created equally for sure but I think the biggest offender has been the change to Howling Blast. It's rather unfortunate because they kinda had to make this change in order to implement the new rune system and to kill of Masterfrost but I wish Frost could use Howling Blast at ranged again without it being a steaming hot pile of doodoo... Unholy has so much usefulness even at range just like the original fantasy of death knights and Frost just doesn't anymore... Howling Blast is a wet noodle. Unholy has ghoul and death coil bare minimum and Epidemic and Clawing Shadows if they take those talents.

  6. #1146
    So for frost, has anyone come up with the "ideal" artifact progression route?

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by iamwardicus View Post
    So for frost, has anyone come up with the "ideal" artifact progression route?

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    And yet it was stated they were also balanced against eachother (in the same sentence as legendaries iirc)
    Yes they are balanced to give the same relative power to the spec it's for to that spec, not to offer the same strength compared to another. The relative power to each other is the balancing point, not making them all at say 30% damage increase or such at full traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    The thing is UH is about 15% better no 1-2%. That very substantial.
    Yet another stuck on imaginary numbers.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    Yes they are balanced to give the same relative power to the spec it's for to that spec, not to offer the same strength compared to another. The relative power to each other is the balancing point, not making them all at say 30% damage increase or such at full traits.



    Yet another stuck on imaginary numbers.
    It's really pointless to bitch about anything at this point. It seems no one can argue the same set of numbers, because one guy is pulling numbers from a month ago, another from 2 weeks ago and a third is jumping in with numbers from Live.

    How about waiting until everyone is dealing with the same, non-Alpha/non-Beta/non-preLegionLive, numbers -- then we can bitch like we have been for the past 5 years, and have Blizzard continue to ignore every single rationale complaint?

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post

    Yet another stuck on imaginary numbers.
    So you want to tell every DK that has been playing the beta, kept both artifacts up to date alongside "ideal" secondary stats that Frost DK is truly equal to Unholy right now?

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    So you want to tell every DK that has been playing the beta, kept both artifacts up to date alongside "ideal" secondary stats that Frost DK is truly equal to Unholy right now?
    I don't think they're equal but I don't think we can say for certain we have true numbers can we? Especially with the legendary changes and whatnot. Dunno how that will affect things.

  12. #1152
    The only data I've ever seen from public logs on WCL indicating Frost wasn't completely terrible was in 2-4 target cleave situations and from only one DK (Nemesquish/Phenom).

    My personal experience was that Unholy absolute demolished anything that wasn't in Frost's niche. I don't play either of the two specs at the same level so its obviously not a good metric either.

    Edit: My main point is that telling people what's better by specific percentages is obviously a pile of horseshit but at the same time telling people that UH isn't > Frost at this point in time is also a load of shit. We just don't know by how much.

  13. #1153
    Frost vs Unholy, ignore their DPS and Unholy is superior because of its toolkit.

    Even if both did the same relative DPS, do you want to drive around with a car that has the basic stuff (Frost) or one that has all the bells and whistles (Unholy).

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    So you want to tell every DK that has been playing the beta, kept both artifacts up to date alongside "ideal" secondary stats that Frost DK is truly equal to Unholy right now?
    To be fair Maxweii didn't say they were equal, but that the idea that they are 15% apart was imaginary.

    Direpenguin makes a good point as well, every time someone tries to point how far Frost is behind Unholy you are never sure what numbers they are looking at, is it live, is Beta Pre Razor buff, or current live Beta?

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    Yes they are balanced to give the same relative power to the spec it's for to that spec,
    Would you mind rephrasing that? Since right now it appears you're just playing with words to dance around actually answering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Would you mind rephrasing that? Since right now it appears you're just playing with words to dance around actually answering.
    If ST legendaries are meant to give a X% increase to dps, then they will adjust them accordingly. Spec A might gain 60K DPS but Spec B only get 50K, but both specs still got a DPS increase of X%.

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Soul View Post
    If ST legendaries are meant to give a X% increase to dps, then they will adjust them accordingly. Spec A might gain 60K DPS but Spec B only get 40K, but both specs still got a DPS increase of X%.
    Has nothing to do with artifacts, that are largely intended to be balanced against eachother by blizzards own words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
    To be fair Maxweii didn't say they were equal, but that the idea that they are 15% apart was imaginary.

    Direpenguin makes a good point as well, every time someone tries to point how far Frost is behind Unholy you are never sure what numbers they are looking at, is it live, is Beta Pre Razor buff, or current live Beta?
    Although I do feel I must apologize for the current state of Frost. It seems every class/spec I play gets ignored by the developers and sent to the abyss of uselessness -- first it was Rangers in EQ, then I played Prot Warrior, then Enhancement Shaman and now Frost DK.

    Sorry...

    On a side note, if you like I will roll up a Fire Mage, so they can be destroyed and ignored by Blizzard

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Has nothing to do with artifacts, that are largely intended to be balanced against eachother by blizzards own words.
    They are being handled the same exact way, X% increase for all specs. Some may get more DPS, but its still the same X% increase regardless.

  20. #1160
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Soul View Post
    They are being handled the same exact way, X% increase for all specs. Some may get more DPS, but its still the same X% increase regardless.
    Except my point is they aren't and that's clear to anyone. Some artifacts are bottom priority activators with poor trees, some of them are the best thing since sliced bread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •