Unholy Clawing Shadows damage has been changed to 130% weapon damage

[Rothulean1]

We have no sims, so this is all we can really draw conclusions on atm for level 100:

Castigator is probably a tad higher on ST.
CS is a tad stronger for dnd cleave.
If you have high crit and low mastery, go castigator. It's probably a tiny bit stronger.
If you have low critical and high mastery, go cs. Same thing...Probably a tiny bit stronger.
If you have a good mix of both, pick what you want. If you hate one particular talent, don't pick it. The difference atm is very small.

For 110 we truly have no idea. My guess is that CS will be slightly ahead at 110 because it gains more from the artifact.

[Zeds Dead]

Will this effect how well Cs will scale into the expansion?

[Maxweii]

Will this effect how well Cs will scale into the expansion?

It will scale a lot better as our weapon will have such a high ilvl from relics.

[Rixarius]

I did 10 minutes on the dummy with both and the results were pretty much identical. I did about 550 DPS more with Castigator, only having roughly 1750 Crit. I am running Skull of War/Stone of the Elements so the SoW procs really helped a lot. I think both choices are viable now. Clawing Shadows will be best if the boss is going to move on a timer I think.

[Gemini Soul]

so which is better SS or CS? a simple answer please if you have tested it out

This is my look on it so far as of this current tunning...

CS has slightly better scaling with weapon than SS does, the very first trait on our artifact which also is free and we get right away is +10% shadow damage which translates to a bigger increase for CS than SS.

CS has some range on it which comes in handy with our crap mobility, you can dps and pop wounds when running out of bad etc.

Cast favors Crit and both are good for ST aka patchwerk, so to make full use of this talent you need to go Haste>Crit. Doing so how ever isn't ideal for AoE/multiple targets because crit can't keep up with mastery in that situation.

CS favors mastery, so to make full use of this talent you need to go Haste>Mastery. Because mastery is better than crit when it comes to AoE/multiple targets you are going to rock there. Also as you go further into the Artifact there is a lot more shadow damage sources.

Now ask your self when is the last time we had a Patchwerk fight, where there was only 1 target for the entire fight? How often do you fight 1v1 when soloing. So going CS with Haste>Mastery is going to be great for a majority of the content and while it wont be quite as good on pure ST but the extra on AoE/cleave makes up for it. Also the stacking of mastery increases CS dmg which brings them closer together so its not such a big gap.

[Julian5]

I'm not convinced that going haste/crit and Castigator is necessarily going to be a substantial loss of AoE/cleave damage. Yes, crit is worse then mastery for AoE on an ability-by-ability basis, but the damage lost from Epidemic/Virulent Plague/DnD/SS or CS from going crit instead of mastery might be compensated by the damage gained via Bursting Sores, especially if you have the legendary wrists.

Crit and Castigator are definitely worse for burst AoE, since that's all Epidemic*, but if they live for more then 3 globals (which is likely in progression, depending on the fight), then I suspect the constant Bursting Sores damage will start to catch up.

*Unless your pet spreads Wounds everywhere and you pop them at all once. That damage is just silly.

[Rooskie1993]

I'm not convinced that going haste/crit and Castigator is necessarily going to be a substantial loss of AoE/cleave damage. Yes, crit is worse then mastery for AoE on an ability-by-ability basis, but the damage lost from Epidemic/Virulent Plague/DnD/SS or CS from going crit instead of mastery might be compensated by the damage gained via Bursting Sores, especially if you have the legendary wrists.

Crit and Castigator are definitely worse for burst AoE, since that's all Epidemic*, but if they live for more then 3 globals (which is likely in progression, depending on the fight), then I suspect the constant Bursting Sores damage will start to catch up.

*Unless your pet spreads Wounds everywhere and you pop them at all once. That damage is just silly.

the only pure patchwerk single target fight ive seen is that kromus guy on the bridge where you go bursting sores and pestilent pustules, the thing is you won't be wasting gcds on getting wounds up when you would use them on epidemic not only is epidemic more dmg its like a fire nova for unholy dks but bursting sores is not that however and you would also need wounds on the target, which means you wouldnt have many runes left after using 3x epidemic, DnD and tryin to fit scourge strikes in.

Also you would not go infected claws most likely ever because shadow infusion is just too good to not take, you need that high DT uptime.

[Julian5]

the only pure patchwerk single target fight ive seen is that kromus guy on the bridge where you go bursting sores and pestilent pustules, the thing is you won't be wasting gcds on getting wounds up when you would use them on epidemic not only is epidemic more dmg its like a fire nova for unholy dks but bursting sores is not that however and you would also need wounds on the target, which means you wouldnt have many runes left after using 3x epidemic, DnD and tryin to fit scourge strikes in.

Also you would not go infected claws most likely ever because shadow infusion is just too good to not take, you need that high DT uptime.

I understand how Epidemic works, I'm just saying that I've found the AoE damage from Bursting Sores to be so significant that while it doesn't quite do the damage of Epidemic, it comes fairly close if you can get a lot of wounds to pop. This is why I referenced Infected Claws. You'd get way more AoE damage out of those extra wounds then you would from the ghoul being transformed more often. ST you might still want Shadow Infusion, but AoE I think would favor Infected Claws.

[Rooskie1993]

I understand how Epidemic works, I'm just saying that I've found the AoE damage from Bursting Sores to be so significant that while it doesn't quite do the damage of Epidemic, it comes fairly close if you can get a lot of wounds to pop. This is why I referenced Infected Claws. You'd get way more AoE damage out of those extra wounds then you would from the ghoul being transformed more often. ST you might still want Shadow Infusion, but AoE I think would favor Infected Claws.

Well no because not only does your ghoul do less dmg not in DT infected claws has a chance to spread and it also needs to be in DT for festering wound to actually spread onto more thatn 1 target, 35% rng is not worth it at all.

[Rothulean1]

When you have 6-10 mobs and a 35% chance to apply a wound to each...thats a pretty big dps gain.

[Rooskie1993]

When you have 6-10 mobs and a 35% chance to apply a wound to each...thats a pretty big dps gain.

Again, your ghoul can only apply to more than 1 target if it's transformed and the DPS you would lose over the long fight of not having high DT uptime would be an overall DPS loss, you don't need to try max out for pure AoE when we have epidemic and DnD/SS,CS spam to already be top on AoE.

[Julian5]

Well no because not only does your ghoul do less dmg not in DT infected claws has a chance to spread and it also needs to be in DT for festering wound to actually spread onto more thatn 1 target, 35% rng is not worth it at all.

The fact that it's a 35% chance on the gas attack to spread wounds doesn't really matter. I still get plenty of wounds from it while it's transformed. And those wounds being cleaved with SS + DnD does WAY more damage then the lost transformed ghoul uptime.

Edit: Also, I'm not sure of the actual numbers, but I suspect Infected Claws isn't a large ST dps loss. Need sims to know for sure, and how much.

[Keiyra]

Again, your ghoul can only apply to more than 1 target if it's transformed and the DPS you would lose over the long fight of not having high DT uptime would be an overall DPS loss, you don't need to try max out for pure AoE when we have epidemic and DnD/SS,CS spam to already be top on AoE.

Have you seen solid sims or TC confirming that? For single target at least, its sounds like you are neglecting the side benefit of infected claws, being you use fewer Festering Strikes and more CS/SS over the course of the fight. (I honestly don't know, hence why im curious to see if there's been any decent number crunching on the 2 talent options)

[Rooskie1993]

I'm not denying the fact that Infected claws + bursting sores combo is great for 3+ targets but not only does it require a lot more management it doesn't have exactly the best uptime, your ghoul needs to be transformed regardless for it to spread festering wounds and then it's not a DPS gain over just flat using epidemic. Also it's being super RNG for AoE only really when we already have super strong AoE without trying to cheese as much out of it as we can. I just don't personally see us ever going Infected Claws over Shadow Infusion, it's just too good.

More constant AoE from gas cloud, more constant DMG from probably 90%+ DT uptime over 35% rng on AoE, and let's not forget you need to have DnD down to pop the wounds on secondary targets so that again is probably why it's not that great.

[Gemini Soul]

Should also note that Ebon Fever is way better than Bursting Sores for AoE

[Rothulean1]

Again, your ghoul can only apply to more than 1 target if it's transformed and the DPS you would lose over the long fight of not having high DT uptime would be an overall DPS loss, you don't need to try max out for pure AoE when we have epidemic and DnD/SS,CS spam to already be top on AoE.

No it wouldnt because you would be using FeS less and CS/SS more. But with Infected Claws you have the additional benefit of potentially higher burst aoe.

Also keep in mind that the artifact has a trait that increases DT uptime by 6 seconds. Which is an even bigger benefit to Infected Claws.

[Julian5]

I'm not denying the fact that Infected claws + bursting sores combo is great for 3+ targets but not only does it require a lot more management it doesn't have exactly the best uptime, your ghoul needs to be transformed regardless for it to spread festering wounds and then it's not a DPS gain over just flat using epidemic. Also it's being super RNG for AoE only really when we already have super strong AoE without trying to cheese as much out of it as we can. I just don't personally see us ever going Infected Claws over Shadow Infusion, it's just too good.

More constant AoE from gas cloud, more constant DMG from probably 90%+ DT uptime over 35% rng on AoE, and let's not forget you need to have DnD down to pop the wounds on secondary targets so that again is probably why it's not that great.

All the things you list here can be worked with. Management isn't a big deal, uptime is only really relevent if it's a fight with perma aoe, which there is just the scorpion I think? The fact that it's RNG doesn't really matter, especially since the chance isn't low. If you are building for AoE, why not go all the way since that's what you are building to counter? You might be right that we end up not using Infected Claws, but I don't think Shadow Infusion is as good as you claim. Sure, it's great now with HFC tier, but the ghoul shouldn't be nearly as silly at 110.

The ghoul's AoE damage while transformed is good, but popping a bunch of wounds is better from my experience.

Should also note that Ebon Fever is way better than Bursting Sores for AoE

Not if running Castigator, especially with the wrists. Bursting sore damage gets insane, way more than Ebon Fever can do (again this is in my experience, so I could be totally wrong).

[Rooskie1993]

All the things you list here can be worked with. Management isn't a big deal, uptime is only really relevent if it's a fight with perma aoe, which there is just the scorpion I think? The fact that it's RNG doesn't really matter, especially since the chance isn't low. If you are building for AoE, why not go all the way since that's what you are building to counter? You might be right that we end up not using Infected Claws, but I don't think Shadow Infusion is as good as you claim. Sure, it's great now with HFC tier, but the ghoul shouldn't be nearly as silly at 110.

The ghoul's AoE damage while transformed is good, but popping a bunch of wounds is better from my experience.



Not if running Castigator, especially with the wrists. Bursting sore damage gets insane, way more than Ebon Fever can do (again this is in my experience, so I could be totally wrong).

There is major downtime with almost all of what you're trying to do, 1. DnD on CD, 2. RNG luck on your ghoul WHEN ITS TRANSFORMED to spread wounds, 3. Movement comes into play a huge amount, wether your ghoul spreads to all targets, wether your DnD was down and then boss/adds get moved. I honestly never see this Infected Claws being a thing even on single target it's not a DPS gain over shadow infusion.

[Rothulean1]

Its probably not a gain because they are likely equal. Youre vastly undervaluing AoE Wounds and extra CS/SS casts. Youre also ignoring that Eternal Agony from our artifact benefits Infected Claws more.

[Rooskie1993]

Its probably not a gain because they are likely equal. Youre vastly undervaluing AoE Wounds and extra CS/SS casts. Youre also ignoring that Eternal Agony from our artifact benefits Infected Claws more.

You are still not taking into account that you NEED to be transformed for Infected Claws to spread to more than the 1 target your ghoul is attacking then you also NEED DnD down to pop said wounds, having your DT be down for 40 seconds is actually pretty fucking huge not only will your Infected Wounds not spread for 40 seconds but your pet won't be doing gas cloud AoE. Just because of Eternal Agony making the DT down for 34 seconds doesn't make Infected Claws any more better, you still have 34 seconds downtime of no spreading wounds. You also have to save your DnD then for when and IF your ghoul spreads the wounds, you're likely to only get 1-2 spreads off in that time.

Testing on my alt DK who is fresh 100 my ghoul's cleaver hits for 2k, when transformed though he hits multiple targets with vile gas for 10-20k each. So to me it sounds like Shadow Infusion is indeed way better.