No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[MoanaLisa]

This is why I REALLLLLLLLY hope people make a stink when they start finding out about mythic dungeons being on the list.

Whether or not those will be mythic, I couldn't confirm. I suppose it's entirely possible that they could be obtained from LFR and normal modes. Although, given the heavy emphasis on other parts of the achievement in Suramar, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd need something from the two mythics found in Suramar also.

So which is it? Do you continue to post, assuming as true, something that you just admitted you couldn't confirm and that may not require mythic? Or what?

[MasterHamster]

Another false assumption. Flight and longevity are not mutually exclusive concepts. Taken to an extreme, EVE online is nothing BUT flying, and it's clearly successful. What you should have said is "flight has to be staggered in order to give Blizzard's oversimplified ground design more longevity than it's actually capable of on its own."

Oh, are you the person to decide what the false assumptions are here? Are you the one to say that Blizzard that has developed this game for over a decade that they are wrong because you value flight more than they do? And really. Talking about EVE online just because it's about flying space ships? Fucking really?

In this whole topic I respect your input the most on the "pro-flying" side, but some times you completely miss the mark. Sometimes it's just painfully obvious you abandon rationality to support flight.

Straw man, much? At least with such a theoretical trinket, it would maintain its usefulness in all future content until you got an upgrade. As has been pointed out MANY times already, the flying situation is like withholding the trinket until after you've cleared everything that you'd use the trinket on. The faction requires exalted to get the trinket, and the trinket has a bonus that gives you 50% more reputation gain with the faction required to buy it in the first place.

Yeah apologies, I'm pretty bad at strawmans and rely on Mafic to provide them for me.

Using a beta that's going on during a 14 month content drought to estimate the longevity and quality of an MMO is a pretty bad metric. Of COURSE people are going to think it's good, because they're bored out of their minds with the complete and total lack of anything to do on the live version.

And using the feedback from players that shit themselves in anger because flight isn't available is a terrible metric of world content travel possibilities but hey you gotta start somewhere. Even deluded players have an opinion.

[Hexxidecimal]

The only things I could find was the part that requires stuff from the Emerald nightmare raid and some items required for the order hall campaign being in dungeons. These are both in Legion Pathfinder Part 1.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=43362/the-stuff-of-dreams
http://beta.wowdb.com/quests/42959-t...a-lucky-number

Which sets the precedence that some requirements for Pathfinder will be in group-instances. Whether or not those will be mythic, I couldn't confirm. I suppose it's entirely possible that they could be obtained from LFR and normal modes. Although, given the heavy emphasis on other parts of the achievement in Suramar, it wouldn't surprise me that you'd need something from the two mythics found in Suramar also.

So basically we still don't know if mythic dungeons will be required. I am generally against instances being part of it at all, but at least LFR and LFG normal is faceroll easy.

[SirCowdog]

So which is it? Do you continue to post, assuming as true, something that you just admitted you couldn't confirm and that may not require mythic? Or what?

I'm brainstorming here and having an ongoing conversation while I do more research. I assumed it was true because I thought it was. Until someone pointed out it might not be, so I'm double checking, ready to be wrong if that's what happens.

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So basically we still don't know if mythic dungeons will be required. I am generally against instances being part of it at all, but at least LFR and LFG normal is faceroll easy.

I think the connection comes from implication that some of the order hall campaign requires going into or around the two suramar dungeons(which are mythic only). The mage campaign, for example, has a lot of activity about The Arcway.

UPDATE: So I digged a little deeper in the quest listed above(Three is a lucky number). The quest item A Glittering Necklace appears to only drop from Advisor Vandros in the Arcway.

So I think it's safe to say at this point that Mythic dungeons will be part of Pathfinder, unless it changes before launch. This is all info from the beta, and subject to change. And it's also possible that not all order hall campaigns will require the same bosses(although that would kind of weird).

EDIT:Logic chain: The drop comes from a boss in the Arcway. The quest is part of the order hall campaign. The order hall campaign is part of Pathfinder. Pathfinder is required to unlock flight. the Arcway is mythic only. Therefore Mythic dungeons are required for flight.

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Oh, are you the person to decide what the false assumptions are here? Are you the one to say that Blizzard that has developed this game for over a decade that they are wrong because you value flight more than they do? And really. Talking about EVE online just because it's about flying space ships? Fucking really?

In this whole topic I respect your input the most on the "pro-flying" side, but some times you completely miss the mark. Sometimes it's just painfully obvious you abandon rationality to support flight.

I think this was just a case of a breakdown in communication. Because of the way you worded your post, I thought you were talking about the general term of "GAME DESIGN" when it seems you really meant the specific case of WoW. I've made myself clear on that topic: Blizzard is missing an opportunity by the way they're handling flight, currently.

And using the feedback from players that shit themselves in anger because flight isn't available is a terrible metric of world content travel possibilities but hey you gotta start somewhere. Even deluded players have an opinion.

Travel possibilities(and the lack of capitalizing on them) is what the entire argument is about. "Shit themselves in anger" tho. I chuckled at that.

[Hexxidecimal]

I'm brainstorming here and having an ongoing conversation while I do more research. I assumed it was true because I thought it was. Until someone pointed out it might not be, so I'm double checking, ready to be wrong if that's what happens.

- - - Updated - - -



I think the connection comes from implication that some of the order hall campaign requires going into or around the two suramar dungeons(which are mythic only). The mage campaign, for example, has a lot of activity about The Arcway.

UPDATE: So I digged a little deeper in the quest listed above(Three is a lucky number). The quest item A Glittering Necklace appears to only drop from Advisor Vandros in the Arcway.

So I think it's safe to say at this point that Mythic dungeons will be part of Pathfinder, unless it changes before launch. This is all info from the beta, and subject to change. And it's also possible that not all order hall campaigns will require the same bosses(although that would kind of weird).

Looking further into that, according to WoW head, that item, along with three others needed for Three is a Lucky number can drop of any end boss in any instance.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=42959/t...a-lucky-number

It's also dropped in the eye of Azshara instance.

[MoanaLisa]

I'm brainstorming here and having an ongoing conversation while I do more research. I assumed it was true because I thought it was. Until someone pointed out it might not be, so I'm double checking, ready to be wrong if that's what happens.

Well, as long as you realize that going around stating something as fact when you don't know for sure whether it is or not is how a lot of forum BS starts then I suppose that's fine. There will be people walking away from this thread now arguing elsewhere that "Mythic dungeons are going to be required for flying" without having any idea whether that's actually true or not.

All I'm really proposing here is to not take what someone says a few pages back as fact without a Blizzard source to back it up. Seems simple enough except for when it interferes with agendas. Jeez, do people really just take some random comment and presume it's factual just because they can imagine it might be true?

[MasterHamster]

I think this was just a case of a breakdown in communication. Because of the way you worded your post, I thought you were talking about the general term of "GAME DESIGN" when it seems you really meant the specific case of WoW. I've made myself clear on that topic: Blizzard is missing an opportunity by the way they're handling flight, currently.

Mmm, I guess. Look I'm not here to tell people they're idiots for having an opinion how travel in WoW should work..
Yet this is also open for discussion. I don't think they're missing an opportunity, I don't think WoW has some sort of obligation to provide for players that love flight. No more than WoW has an obligation to provide for people that think they should have the best possible gear without raiding. Same thing, different dimension.
I mean we can all sit here and have our own personal amazing ideas how flight could be used, zones that defy laws of gravity, landing on "side" planes and quest. But for what we have, WoW doesn't need or support it.

travel possibilities(and the lack of capitalizing on them) is what the entire argument is about. "Shit themselves in anger" tho. I chuckled at that.

I'll have to confess I chuckled when writing it myself D:

[Hexxidecimal]

Mmm, I guess. Look I'm not here to tell people they're idiots for having an opinion how travel in WoW should work..
Yet this is also open for discussion. I don't think they're missing an opportunity, I don't think WoW has some sort of obligation to provide for players that love flight.
I mean we can all sit here and have our own personal amazing ideas how flight could be used, zones that defy laws of gravity, landing on "side" planes and quest. But for what we have, WoW doesn't need or support it.

Oh God, flying up only to fall sideways and take lethal fall damage...

[Dhrizzle]

People complaining about mythic dungeons accomplish nothing but show they are not willing to put in effort in an MMO.

Aw shit why do I have to dig in minecraft to get diamonds?!

I do think there's some difference here. I find it a strange choice to include instanced content in the Pathfinder achievement as the WoD version concentrated solely on the open world. It puts me in mind of a less extreme version of MoP's dailies "forcing" you to engage in world content to get the rewards from heroic dungeons.

[MasterHamster]

I do think there's some difference here. I find it a strange choice to include instanced content in the Pathfinder achievement as the WoD version concentrated solely on the open world. It puts me in mind of a less extreme version of MoP's dailies "forcing" you to engage in world content to get the rewards from heroic dungeons.

Look, the current plan, and has been for the last couple of months, has been that part 1 (that we know the reqs for) is a significant majority of what's needed to unlock flight. I'd personally say it's somewhere around 75%.
We really, REALLY need to get away from this mentality calling stuff ingame "mandatory".

We can hate "mandatory" content all we want... but removing them... yeah.. then we'll truly have nothing worth subbing for.

Oh God, flying up only to fall sideways and take lethal fall damage...

I mean.. with the action cam there's some potential there.
But my whole point is that.. we need to keep a realistic view on WoWs development. It's amazingly easy to say that WoW should have this many raids, dungeons etc etc, but these all take time.

It's impossible to provide exact numbers, but imagine playing BC over again in 2007 ish, but this time no longer spending time to get epic flying, or any shit like that.
Today we're so incredibly hold up on thinking that this is some sort of deliberate ploy to waste our time. I'd personally gladly waste 10 hours of my time to get a decent trinket if I feel like I progressed doing it... but people here are saying this is some sort of commercial conspiracy... it's ridiculous.

I mean... some people in this thread obviously doesn't even enjoy base WoW anymore!

[MoanaLisa]

I mean... some people in this thread obviously doesn't even enjoy base WoW anymore!

There is that.

There is also a lot of unhappiness that something that used to be an easy-to-obtain perk is now a major reward requiring much more effort to acquire. That's Blizzard's price for putting flying back in the game: more effort and a desire to push people to play more of the game.

It's not particularly surprising that they did this given the reaction to this at the start of Warlords. I don't find it particularly difficult to imagine someone saying something to the effect of "We would like to have it out of the game but it's clear that there is a great deal of sentiment to keep it in. So we will do that but since people seem to want this so much and have placed a very high value on it, let's make them work harder for it."

It's very unlikely to see it changed back to a perk. A couple of dozen people have made a tremendous amount of noise in this thread. That's not a mass movement.

[SirCowdog]

Looking further into that, according to WoW head, that item, along with three others needed for Three is a Lucky number can drop of any end boss in any instance.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=42959/t...a-lucky-number

It's also dropped in the eye of Azshara instance.

So it looks like it's a random drop chance from any end-of-dungeon boss? That's kind of weird. But I guess that removes the mythic requirement. I wonder if it'll be the same in the live version?

Well, as long as you realize that going around stating something as fact when you don't know for sure whether it is or not is how a lot of forum BS starts then I suppose that's fine. There will be people walking away from this thread now arguing elsewhere that "Mythic dungeons are going to be required for flying" without having any idea whether that's actually true or not.

All I'm really proposing here is to not take what someone says a few pages back as fact without a Blizzard source to back it up. Seems simple enough except for when it interferes with agendas. Jeez, do people really just take some random comment and presume it's factual just because they can imagine it might be true?

Well, this also lead to a fact-checking conversation where we determined the truth of the matter. Like I said, I THOUGHT it was true. If I hadn't continued the conversation I would have continued thinking that. Now I know differently.

- - - Updated - - -

Look, the current plan, and has been for the last couple of months, has been that part 1 (that we know the reqs for) is a significant majority of what's needed to unlock flight. I'd personally say it's somewhere around 75%.
We really, REALLY need to get away from this mentality calling stuff ingame "mandatory".

We can hate "mandatory" content all we want... but removing them... yeah.. then we'll truly have nothing worth subbing for.



I mean.. with the action cam there's some potential there.
But my whole point is that.. we need to keep a realistic view on WoWs development. It's amazingly easy to say that WoW should have this many raids, dungeons etc etc, but these all take time.

It's impossible to provide exact numbers, but imagine playing BC over again in 2007 ish, but this time no longer spending time to get epic flying, or any shit like that.
Today we're so incredibly hold up on thinking that this is some sort of deliberate ploy to waste our time. I'd personally gladly waste 10 hours of my time to get a decent trinket if I feel like I progressed doing it... but people here are saying this is some sort of commercial conspiracy... it's ridiculous.

I'm going to stop you there, because I don't really think the complaints are about having to do things to unlock flying. A LOT of pro-fliers like the idea of working and putting in some effort to get it, especially if it's within the context of the lore, and makes sense. The real complaints come from having the unlock require an exorbitant amount of things on the laundry-list, including stuff that has very little to do with flying. Being required to go into dungeons in order to get flying is a good example, even if it's no longer mythic. Having flight locked behind an arbitrary, and unknown date, even AFTER completing the laundry list, is another.

So the issue is not that ground content needs to take time to complete. It's that getting flying is becoming onerous and excessive. At this point, the "attunement" process to get flight entails more work and effort than what it takes to get into raids! Think about that for a little bit. What if you could not even set foot in ANY raids(or mythic dungeons, for the sake of argument) without completing Pathfinder. While some people would obviously think that's cool, would everyone? I have absolutely no doubts we would see the same arguments about the longevity of the game as we're seeing around flying.

I mean... some people in this thread obviously doesn't even enjoy base WoW anymore!

Except for the past 8 years or so, "base WoW", as you put it, had flying. Maybe people should consider that.

[MasterHamster]

Except for the past 8 years or so, "base WoW", as you put it, had flying. Maybe people should consider that.

To me, WoW is a shit load more than just whether or not it has flying.
And to Mafic's enormous dismay, people in Legion will find a shitload of things to work towards unlike in WoD.
Some players? Yes, they will be a bit pissed flight isn't easily available. They will start working on the pathfinder achi, and unlock flight in 7.2 or 7.3.
And as someone who has tried to get into professional game design, it's really a no brainer why dev teams don't want flight in game's like WoW... it's not far akin to noclip in Minecraft.

A LOT of pro-fliers like the idea of working and putting in some effort to get it, especially if it's within the context of the lore, and makes sense.

Only problem is that every single one of them seem to think they have the right to design it.

As soon as people stop pretending flight is a "promise", the better.
I like flight myself. It feels convenient, I get to where I want quickly. And yet, why is it so hard to understand why I don't think flight is some godlike gift to players.

Then again, does it even matter at this point? People who think flying is a human right has already lost. Extremists like Mafic are laughed at from both sides.
WoW is extremely accessible but not to the point where the very of "subscription" sounds like a joke.

I'll enjoy the following months as Mafic keeps repeating how the riots are coming. If he was ever wrong it was in WoD and even then the hate for no-flight was nigh ignorable. And no surprise, since WoD was destroyed by the casuals of MoP.

I'll keep enjoying WoW as a progressive MMO. Where I feel like time spent means power somewhere down the line. But poor Mafic will be stuck in the limbo inbetween.
Poor unstable little man.

[MoanaLisa]

At this point, the "attunement" process to get flight entails more work and effort than what it takes to get into raids! Think about that for a little bit.

It's arguably something that more people care about than raiding. Thus the cost. It's higher value.

WoW still has flying. It's been changed from what it was for eight years with respect to acquisition. Stuff like that happens. As I wrote earlier, the high cost is largely a result of the desire on the part of players for it. Your argument boils down to "It's always been this way" which is basically a stance of change denial and unrealistic. Stuff changes. Sometimes it changes in ways you like; other times not.

Others calling the changes 'sinister' and likely to lead to player riots is pure theater. Entertaining in its own way but not worthy of any serious response.

[SirCowdog]

To me, WoW is a shit load more than just whether or not it has flying.

And to others, flying is perceived as being part of what wow IS. I think too many people are far far too quick to dismiss that.

As soon as people stop pretending flight is a "promise", the better.

I like flight myself. It feels convenient, I get to where I want quickly. And yet, why is it so hard to understand why I don't think flight is some godlike gift to players.

See above. It's less about it being a promise, and more about feeling that what fundamentally makes WoW what it is has been lessened. WoW without raiding. WoW without PVP. WoW without tauren. WoW without portals, or magic, or a host of any other things. Simply saying "Well I never liked those things anyway, so I don't care" doesn't really even attempt to understand the issue.

Then again, does it even matter at this point?

Is there ever a point to fighting for what direction a person wants to see the game move towards? People like what they like. And it seems pretty clear to me that enough people made enough feedback to keep flying in the game, even if it's not exactly in the form they'd prefer. So why not keep pushing for more? Don't raiders always push for more raids? Don't PVP people always complain when a PVE change screws with the balance of their preferred gameplay? How is this different?

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It's arguably something that more people care about than raiding. Thus the cost. It's higher value.

I want to clarify, because I know you don't like it when I misinterpret or misrepresent. Did you really just say that more people care about flying, and that it has a higher value than raiding?

[MoanaLisa]

I want to clarify, because I know you don't like it when I misinterpret or misrepresent. Did you really just say that more people care about flying, and that it has a higher value than raiding?

Obviously I did. Was it not clear? Organized raiding still hangs out at the 20%-25% level of participation being generous. I'm speculating that many more people will obtain the achievement now that it's available to be worked on from the start of the expansion than will participate in organized raiding (excluding LFR). It will be an interesting armory question six months after the meta can be completed.

Correctly or not, Blizzard has turned access to flight into one of the most, if not the most significant achievement in the expansion through its meta. That's not an argument for it to be available for leveling and a few thousand gold. Quite the opposite. I thought it obvious that people think that flying is of value to themselves personally as players. Why wouldn't there be more of them than those that amble into normal or higher raiding?

[Deleted]

Its amazing. Nothing triggers people in Wow like no flying. Already 439 pages

[Elim Garak]

I played wow only for raids and used flying to kill the time between raids. When they removed flying - I quit the game, because there was nothing for me to do between raids and it just didn't worth the subscription anymore, never raided in WoD as a result, have been raiding since vanilla.

[Dhrizzle]

I'm going to stop you there, because I don't really think the complaints are about having to do things to unlock flying. A LOT of pro-fliers like the idea of working and putting in some effort to get it, especially if it's within the context of the lore, and makes sense. The real complaints come from having the unlock require an exorbitant amount of things on the laundry-list, including stuff that has very little to do with flying. Being required to go into dungeons in order to get flying is a good example, even if it's no longer mythic. Having flight locked behind an arbitrary, and unknown date, even AFTER completing the laundry list, is another.

So the issue is not that ground content needs to take time to complete. It's that getting flying is becoming onerous and excessive. At this point, the "attunement" process to get flight entails more work and effort than what it takes to get into raids! Think about that for a little bit. What if you could not even set foot in ANY raids(or mythic dungeons, for the sake of argument) without completing Pathfinder. While some people would obviously think that's cool, would everyone? I have absolutely no doubts we would see the same arguments about the longevity of the game as we're seeing around flying.

There's a huge difference between raids, which are a core part of the game, and flight, which is a perk or tool that makes another core part of the game quicker/easier/more convenient/less tedious. Gating raids behind a large attunement (which has been done in previous expansions) prevents players from progressing their character until they've completed the attunements. Gating flying doesn't stop progression in any way unless you're unwilling to play the game at a pace/difficulty that Blizz decide is appropriate.

Now whilst you're clearly having a lot of fun using words like "onerous," "excessive" and "exorbitant" they're all just part of your opinion on what constitutes "too much" work towards pathfinder. For some people anything other than paying gold at the level cap is onerous, anything beyond Explorer plus Loremaster is excessive, and I wouldn't use "exorbitant" at all as it's not really the right word for the situation.

Personally I agree that having part of the Pathfinder achievement involve instanced content isn't a very good decision but I'd hardly call it a massive amount of effort to get 3 dungeons, maybe if it was a prolonged grind like MoP's dailies I'd take some issue but it really doesn't seem to be the case.

Also what makes you consider the time of flight's release to be "arbitrary?" It seems quite clear that Blizz plan to unlock it when they've released the world content they're designing to be consumed in a "ground and pound" style .

[Eapoe]

I played wow only for raids and used flying to kill the time between raids. When they removed flying - I quit the game, because there was nothing for me to do between raids and it just didn't worth the subscription anymore, never raided in WoD as a result, have been raiding since vanilla.

Think you might want to expand or clarify this. You say you played only for raids and flew to kill time, flight is removed so you quit completely. Couldn't your time away from raids have been filled with other things, like other games or real life? If flight was just a time killer, then its removal should not have impacted you to quit, especially when you start saying you play only to raid. Typo maybe?