Mythic Archimonde - One last shot

[Deleted]

How is it more delicate to work out? It's the exact same thing, difficulty-wise.

Because diagonically, the front right for example can land you to back left, or otherwise screw up and land on another group. If you go with explosions first at the back you don't care where to land exactly as long as it's at the back. The melees will explode second and they can land whenever even if they screw up a bit.

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If your melee didn't automatically start exploding diagonally to maximize their uptime, I question their ability to be melee. Getting punted sideways into the middle keeps you in range to melt the boss' face the entire time, getting punted straight back does not.

I get that, assuming no ranged are soaking at front; it's just for an optimization to reduce the effect of screw ups; if they can choose between software behavior, there's no reason not exploding the ranged first for an extra security.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Ya, you'll want to 3 heal for sure. The fights are much easier with more dps now. There is no other advice I can give in phase 3 though. Everyone needs to know the fight and do it right.
Its a fight I STILL hate doing with more than 1 person who doesn't know the mechanics, because they constantly fail the Mark of the Legion and orb placements and its really frustrating for 1 person to nearly wipe the whole group in a carry.

Pugging it? YIKES.

[Adramelch]

Because diagonically from front right for example can land you to back left. If you go with explosions first at the back you don't care where to land exactly as long as it's at the back. The melees will explode second and they can land whenever.

No it can't, unless you fuck up the marks. Apart from the first couple of p3 tries, where we got to realise "okay we need to get blown back diagonally", we haven't had anyone die from being knocked to a 2nd mark.

[Rixarius]

Good luck, friend.

[Fayenoor]

22% best pull. Oh well.... we might try it again on Sunday.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q8W4fQyLDvwM7JRT

[Deleted]

No it can't, unless you fuck up the marks. Apart from the first couple of p3 tries, where we got to realise "okay we need to get blown back diagonally", we haven't had anyone die from being knocked to a 2nd mark.

It's only a small optimization in order to minimize double soaking by those screwing up. I didn't mean you can't do it. If you explode the front ones first you do something that is suboptimal even if it's doable because I can't think of a reason it can be better than the reverse.

[Adramelch]

It's only a small optimization in order to minimize double soaking by those screwing up. I didn't mean you can't do it. If you explode the front ones first you do something that is suboptimal even if it's doable because I can't think of a reason it can be better than the reverse.

As Draco explained, you potentially gain more DPS.

In any case, we're derailing the thread (given they are already in p3 and I suppose have a set way of doing things by now).

[Deleted]

As Draco explained, you potentially gain more DPS.

What Draco said does not require to explode first at the front. You can explode at the back first and still go diagonally at the melee for that small advantage of DPS.

[Adramelch]

What Draco said does not require to explode first at the front. You can explode at the back first and still go diagonally at the melee for that small advantage of DPS.

So if you do that, the two tactics are interchangeable (which has been my point all along even if my last post suggests otherwise).

[Deleted]

So if you do that, the two tactics are interchangeable (which has been my point all along even if my last post suggests otherwise).

Not they're not. The two groups can have all kinds of people; ranged may be in a front group that may screw up more easily if they explode first or even melee that were supposed to go diagonally may mess up. Exploding first at the back is logically superior in any case for the extra security against screw ups/slow reactions and if you want to explode diagonally as a melee for the extra deeps you can still do it.

[Dracodraco]

Not they're not. The two groups can have all kinds of people; ranged may be in a front group that may screw up more easily if they explode first or even melee that were supposed to go diagonally may mess up. Exploding first at the back is logically superior in any case for the extra security against screw ups/slow reactions and if you want to explode diagonally as a melee for the extra deeps you can still do it.

Question: Why would ranged being in the front groups matter like... At all? They just act like a melee. Get punted back across the middle, done. You keep going on about how ranged might screw something up if they're in melee. Why? What can they possibly screw up?

Secondly, you seem to think that blowing up the ranged first is superior for safety. I'm going to counter with the fact that blowing up the *melee* first is actually safer - if the ranged blows up last, you've got people who can run away from the infernal spawns on the lowest HP due being the last two groups to blowing up. Melee can strafe to the left or the right, but ultimately, if the infernals are landing near the melee, they either eat high damage or run out of range of the boss. If ranged gets an infernal spawn, they just run away from it and keep going.

Just because you prefer a method does not make it superior; It's quite clear that you've given absolutely no thought to optimisation of the fight, as the only thing you seem concerned with is "its safer if someone fucks up getting punted back into an exploding mark". Anything else, you don't even seem to give it a second thought. Your approach makes one aspect of the phase safer (melee can get punted anywhere they want), but it is worse multiple other levels (melee getting punted back loses more dps so should never be planned for, melee getting punted last risks KO's from close infernal spawns, melee getting punted last means DKs out of position for overlapping infernal waves so slow grips etc).

[ItsTiddles]

22% best pull. Oh well.... we might try it again on Sunday.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q8W4fQyLDvwM7JRT

That healer damage is what I like to see I notice you're still 4 healing. Were you unable to try 3 healing or was it too much damage for your healers?
That best pull went pretty far considering 4 deaths and a brez happen in p2.

[Deleted]

if the ranged blows up last, you've got people who can run away from the infernal spawns [..] melee getting punted last risks KO's from close infernal spawns, melee getting punted last means DKs out of position for overlapping infernal waves so slow grips etc.

That is clearly an optimization for a top 50 guild during progress/early farm that had no issue with the timings of the explosions because god help them if they failed in something that basic at their level. We're in a thread about one of the most casual groups on the boss. I doubt the messing up of the knockbacks themselves isn't going to be a bigger factor than optimizing a little for the massively nerfed landing of the infernals.

[Dracodraco]

That is clearly an optimization for a top 50 guild during progress/early farm that had no issue with the timings of the explosions because god help them if they failed in something that basic at their level. We're in a thread about one of the most casual groups on the boss. I doubt the messing up of the knockbacks themselves isn't going to be a bigger factor than optimizing a little for the massively nerfed landing of the infernals.

Optimisation is optimisation. I'll quote you:

Exploding first at the back is logically superior in any case

Any case. Any case would include ANY GUILD, ANY RANK. This is not correct. It is safer to do it in a different way and has been for ages. Do also keep in mind that while infernals do less damage on landing now, Mark of the legion was never actually nerfed - the damage originates from a player, and is thus not adhering to the 50% damage nerf (1.5M on the tooltip, 5.5M damage taken from our last kill from one set of marks - 500K accounted for through reduction cooldowns used by the raid).

Regardless, the issue I have is that you seem to think your method is "superior in any case", when clearly, it's only superior if your only issue is people can't figure out how to get punted across the middle - at which point they'd never beat Archimonde anyway. Planning around people being retarded is fine, but saying this is optimisation for a top 50 guild during progression/early farm is fucking silly. This is optimisation for any guild wanting to kill Archimonde. A basic "position like a non-retard" check does NOT pose a higher threat than 3-400K damage followed by a burst of another 2-300K damage that might kill someone with healers spam-capabilities getting nerfed.

TL;DR - if you have issues with people getting punted wrong, then clearly you'll have issues with KO-potential from marks and infernals at a much higher degree. Solving punting issues is easier than solving the raw damage intake. Prepare for what's hardest. Not what's most stupid.

(Also, keep in mind that all of this is 100% pointless. The boss is done, we've killed it a houndred fucking times already, and it's boring as fuck. I just can't fucking wrap my head around trying to optimise around the easiest part of the encounter by using addons that might prove more of a hindrance due to clashing information, than just going about it the "normal" way that's worked for countless other guilds in the top 100).

[Deleted]

Any case.

OK fair enough. It's not that important on a very hard core team to optimize the explosions in isolation in that way described because they are going to do it properly anyway. But we're still in this thread of a casual team so I think that factor is pretty important.

if your only issue is people can't figure out how to get punted across the middle - at which point they'd never beat Archimonde anyway.

Nah. I've seen some pretty bad players killing it. Their failure rate at properly doing the groups/explosions in isolation was high but the boss was still dead.

To a small extend even before the prepatch.

[Fayenoor]

That healer damage is what I like to see I notice you're still 4 healing. Were you unable to try 3 healing or was it too much damage for your healers?
That best pull went pretty far considering 4 deaths and a brez happen in p2.

With 3 healers, either one or both of our tanks were dying or the hunter soaking fire was dying in P1/2. We did around 2 hours worth of pulls with 3 healers. Then last hour went back to 4. Some of the pulls we managed to push P1 with Doomfire and no lust. we would just wipe if a 2nd doomfire spawned in a pull.

Also, that Mark helper Addon you recommended - how do I remove it? I coudnt find installed in my Addon folder.

Most of the wipes we had seem to be either from tank deaths and/or deaths of one or more person to mistakes like shackle deaths
or doomfire soaker deaths. I think we had like 1-2 pulls max where we made it to P3 with everyone alive. In that one pull, we got to 20%, we were doing well till we lost people to Mark.

[Dracodraco]

With 3 healers, either one or both of our tanks were dying or the hunter soaking fire was dying in P1/2. We did around 2 hours worth of pulls with 3 healers. Then last hour went back to 4. Some of the pulls we managed to push P1 with Doomfire and no lust. we would just wipe if a 2nd doomfire spawned in a pull.

Also, that Mark helper Addon you recommended - how do I remove it? I coudnt find installed in my Addon folder.

Most of the wipes we had seem to be either from tank deaths and/or deaths of one or more person to mistakes like shackle deaths
or doomfire soaker deaths. I think we had like 1-2 pulls max where we made it to P3 with everyone alive. In that one pull, we got to 20%, we were doing well till we lost people to Mark.

You're only getting a single doomfire. Stop using the hunter to soak it - by doing that, you're forcing 3 healers to put pressure-healing on three targets;
2 Tanks and a hunter.

Instead, have your tanks pick up the doomfire. The tank that isn't tanking the doomfire will have a brief period of tanking both the boss and a deathcaller, so pop cooldowns for that. The tank taking the doomfire is going to be barely tickled by it, meaning your healers are free to focus on the one tank taking heavy damage, and the raid, rather than two tanks both taking moderate damage, and a hunter taking heavy damage. Bonus points; I'd usually pop the legendary tank ring when my partner is out soaking doomfire (I would do first allure, he'd do second - you have to alternate due to deathcaller stacks). This way we both take 50% reduced dmg, meaning fire literally won't hurt him, I have a 50% dmg reduc from the heavy dmg on archi+deathcaller, and *healing splits between us*, meaning even if partner is far off out of range of healing, he'll still get topped because I'm feeding him HP through the ring.

This will also raise your DPS, because having a hunter running off / sitting for 8 seconds in turtle is a bigger loss than a tank being out of range.

[ItsTiddles]

Also, that Mark helper Addon you recommended - how do I remove it? I coudnt find installed in my Addon folder.

I'm not sure why it's not there. It's listed in both my folder and my curse client. "MarkOfTheLegionHelper" is the file name. Have you tried searching your computer for the file? If you can't find it but it's still popping up, you can at least disable it on your addons list in game. Also, sorry it didn't help

[Fayenoor]

You're only getting a single doomfire. Stop using the hunter to soak it - by doing that, you're forcing 3 healers to put pressure-healing on three targets;
2 Tanks and a hunter.

Instead, have your tanks pick up the doomfire. The tank that isn't tanking the doomfire will have a brief period of tanking both the boss and a deathcaller, so pop cooldowns for that. The tank taking the doomfire is going to be barely tickled by it, meaning your healers are free to focus on the one tank taking heavy damage, and the raid, rather than two tanks both taking moderate damage, and a hunter taking heavy damage. Bonus points; I'd usually pop the legendary tank ring when my partner is out soaking doomfire (I would do first allure, he'd do second - you have to alternate due to deathcaller stacks). This way we both take 50% reduced dmg, meaning fire literally won't hurt him, I have a 50% dmg reduc from the heavy dmg on archi+deathcaller, and *healing splits between us*, meaning even if partner is far off out of range of healing, he'll still get topped because I'm feeding him HP through the ring.

This will also raise your DPS, because having a hunter running off / sitting for 8 seconds in turtle is a bigger loss than a tank being out of range.

I will pitch this to my tanks. I doubt they will survive it.

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I'm not sure why it's not there. It's listed in both my folder and my curse client. "MarkOfTheLegionHelper" is the file name. Have you tried searching your computer for the file? If you can't find it but it's still popping up, you can at least disable it on your addons list in game. Also, sorry it didn't help

We haven't honestly fully tried the addon in a thorough fashion. I just wanted to know how to remove it so that we can go one way or another instead of using both DBM and the addon giving conflicting advice.

[Deleted]

To be certain it's removed enter the Interface addons folder and remove the MarkOfTheLegionHelper folder and in case it's renamed accidentally - I doubt it - search for the MarkOfTheLegionHelper.lua in there and remove its folder.