1. #8641
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    See above. It's less about it being a promise, and more about feeling that what fundamentally makes WoW what it is has been lessened. WoW without raiding. WoW without PVP. WoW without tauren. WoW without portals, or magic, or a host of any other things. Simply saying "Well I never liked those things anyway, so I don't care" doesn't really even attempt to understand the issue.
    That's a big part of it for me, for sure. I have two reasons I don't like no flying. The first is fairly objective, whether a person agrees it's a bad or good thing, it's an objective fact that without flying, it takes longer to do things in game. And I don't have the same amount of free time I had 10 years ago. So when I have to spend a lot more time on things that do not contribute to my in game goals, that makes me frustrated and unhappy, and I feel like my time is being wasted.

    But then the second is exactly what you said. It's more subjective. It's about the feeling of the game and the world, and to me that is diminished by the lack of flight. The loss of being able to see the world from all angles and views. The feeling that my character is less of a hero, is weaker, can no longer do something it used to be able to do while random NPCs and flightmasters still can, for no story related reason whatsoever. It harms immersion for me when a mount with wings can't fly. It kills the feeling of this being a consistent world. It nags at my brain anytime I play because it just feels *wrong.* It just doesn't feel like the same game.

  2. #8642
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think you might be underestimating how much people are willing to do stupid crap that they don't like in order to get something they want.

    I also think you touched on something important here, as well. If players show Blizzard that they're willing to put up with the Pathfinder nonsense now, it's tacit approval of the Pathfinder format. Blizzard has already stated that they liked how it worked in WoD, and if it gains more implied approval in Legion, we're going to keep seeing more of that theme in later content.

    This is why I REALLLLLLLLY hope people make a stink when they start finding out about mythic dungeons being on the list. It's bad enough we have to do so much of the open world in the first place, leaving almost nothing left over to flight on afterwords. But dungeons aren't even IN the the open world at all. Strangely enough, now that I think about it, I'd almost rather ALL the requirements were in instances. At least that way when we got flight we'd have something current to use it on.
    The requirements are designed to suck as much time from players as possible. They don't have much world content left for the expansion so they have to tack on requirements from instances or new patch content for patchfinder part 2, 3, etc.

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    Court of Stars and Arcway were not originally Mythic only, so that is why they were part of the Suramar quest line.

  3. #8643
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The requirements are designed to suck as much time from players as possible. They don't have much world content left for the expansion so they have to tack on requirements from instances or new patch content for patchfinder part 2, 3, etc.

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    Court of Stars and Arcway were not originally Mythic only, so that is why they were part of the Suramar quest line.
    You just dont let up huh.
    The requirements are largely part of just playing (all of) the game.
    Do they want you to play for more than 1 month? yes.
    Is that an issue for a subscription game where content is actually based on you playing for an extended time? no

  4. #8644
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I played wow only for raids and used flying to kill the time between raids. When they removed flying - I quit the game, because there was nothing for me to do between raids and it just didn't worth the subscription anymore, never raided in WoD as a result, have been raiding since vanilla.
    This is retarded lol. So the time killer went away and you quit entirely.

  5. #8645
    Idk what kind of gameplay that can last for months that you people expect that isn't gated in some form.

  6. #8646
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    So the issue is not that ground content needs to take time to complete. It's that getting flying is becoming onerous and excessive. At this point, the "attunement" process to get flight entails more work and effort than what it takes to get into raids! Think about that for a little bit. What if you could not even set foot in ANY raids(or mythic dungeons, for the sake of argument) without completing Pathfinder. While some people would obviously think that's cool, would everyone? I have absolutely no doubts we would see the same arguments about the longevity of the game as we're seeing around flying.
    Flight is a convenience to travel, something you already have access to. You are not barred from traveling if you do not have flight, unlike having access to a dungeon barred does.

    Achievement earned flight also unlocks it on every character on every server on both factions.

    You also might or might not spend a whole lot of your time flying around, depending on your activities. More than the three or four times a week you raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiona View Post
    This is retarded lol. So the time killer went away and you quit entirely.
    I really really don't see people flying around and nothing else for hours on end each week for their form of fill-in entertainment, like they seem to claim they did. Instead, it's pretty obvious they're just tired of a game they've played for a decade, and quit, and their justification for it was the removal of flight when it was probably a whole lot more in reality.
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  7. #8647
    After I quit competitive raiding at the end of Cata, pretty much all I did in MoP was fly around doing archeology, pet battles, achievements, rep. So if those are a player's primary activities, slower travel does have a big effect.

    At this point though my issue is not really with the achievement even though I preferred just paying gold for flying. My issue is no flying at all for half the expac which isn't something I'm willing to pay for. I play the beta but the beta was free and honestly after like a month I've done most of what I'd be willing to do without flying anyway. Everything left that would have repeat value for me, such as getting rare pets and mounts and getting all reps to exalted is too obnoxious without flying. So rather than buy Legion now, sub for a month, get annoyed, quit... I'd rather vote with my wallet and not give Blizzard anything until flying is on the PTR.... plenty of time to finish the achievement at that point.

    I actually think Legion is a decent expac if this weren't an issue, the no flying thing just ruins it for me personally with how I play the game. If I were still a top 50 US raider I could probably push past the annoyance of it feeling less immersive, less epic etc without flying for the sake of that but now that I'm primarily a solo player? nope.
    Last edited by rebecca191; 2016-08-27 at 07:09 AM.

  8. #8648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Think you might want to expand or clarify this. You say you played only for raids and flew to kill time, flight is removed so you quit completely. Couldn't your time away from raids have been filled with other things, like other games or real life? If flight was just a time killer, then its removal should not have impacted you to quit, especially when you start saying you play only to raid. Typo maybe?
    I was clear enough. Raids took only 12 hours a week. I played at least 30 hours a week with flying. Logging in to wow just for raids felt routine and unexciting, especially considering the fact that once you've seen the raid once - there's nothing new in it. It wasn't worth the sub. And It's not like I was the only one in my guild who felt the same, in fact the whole guild quit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiona View Post
    This is retarded lol.
    It's in the eye of beholder
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  9. #8649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I played wow only for raids and used flying to kill the time between raids. When they removed flying - I quit the game, because there was nothing for me to do between raids and it just didn't worth the subscription anymore, never raided in WoD as a result, have been raiding since vanilla.
    Correct me if i am wrong, but did you just write that you use all your non-raiding time flying around on your mount until reset/raid day?

    Wat?

  10. #8650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    Correct me if i am wrong, but did you just write that you use all your non-raiding time flying around on your mount until reset/raid day?

    Wat?
    You are wrong. I wasn't just flying around, I was flying to world content. Flying doing it, and occasionally just flying.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  11. #8651
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    I honestly dont see the problem with Blizzards staging of flight.

    Step #1 Explore and fight in the world designed for ground. Interactivity with the world itself, and other players with you is high, and gives the most immersive experience.

    Step #2 Pathfinder is getting done, mount speed increased while blizzard is still releasing content that should be experienced from the ground first.

    Step #3 The outdoor content is done and flying is now unlocked account wide for people who have explored and fought (interacted) enough with the world, so now alts and professions can have it easier with flying, but having "deserved" it by proving you have indeed seen all the content the first time "as it should be experienced"


    Swooping around from day would would simply make the world basically non-interactive besides diving down here and there.

  12. #8652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykee View Post
    Swooping around from day would would simply make the world basically non-interactive besides diving down here and there.
    Nonsense, we had it for 8 years, everything was fine.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  13. #8653
    Man, people are really overreacting to this. I get that flying gets you places faster, but flying over everything so early in the expansion seems so anti-social, and like a spit in the face of the people who designed the areas in the game...

    I mean, I could understand if you're on a PvP-server and don't want to deal with that, but otherwise, it's not that big of a deal.

  14. #8654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradingus View Post
    like a spit in the face of the people who designed the areas in the game...
    I'll shit in their face if they really feel that way, those cunts.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  15. #8655
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I'll shit in their face if they really feel that way, those cunts.
    That's... not very nice.

  16. #8656
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I was clear enough. Raids took only 12 hours a week. I played at least 30 hours a week with flying. Logging in to wow just for raids felt routine and unexciting, especially considering the fact that once you've seen the raid once - there's nothing new in it. It wasn't worth the sub. And It's not like I was the only one in my guild who felt the same, in fact the whole guild quit.

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    It's in the eye of beholder
    That's a little different than the message you conveyed. Saying you logged in to fly and kill time is different than stating you logged in to do things in the world that you found more enjoyable with flight, hence the request for clarification.

  17. #8657
    MEGA POST GOOOOOOOOO!!!!! (Sorry guys, I know it's a lot of quotes and split posts. I worked 10+ hours today and didn't have time to keep up with individual posts).

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Obviously I did. Was it not clear? Organized raiding still hangs out at the 20%-25% level of participation being generous. I'm speculating that many more people will obtain the achievement now that it's available to be worked on from the start of the expansion than will participate in organized raiding (excluding LFR). It will be an interesting armory question six months after the meta can be completed.

    Correctly or not, Blizzard has turned access to flight into one of the most, if not the most significant achievement in the expansion through its meta. That's not an argument for it to be available for leveling and a few thousand gold. Quite the opposite. I thought it obvious that people think that flying is of value to themselves personally as players. Why wouldn't there be more of them than those that amble into normal or higher raiding?
    There's something to that point which I just can't seem to put my finger on. If so many people are putting such effort into completing the achievement, it seems like maybe flight ought to be worth more when it's finally available? That is to say, things which flight can be used for other than just content which was already cleared in the process of obtaining it. I'm not articulating this very well. Hmm....


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    There's a huge difference between raids, which are a core part of the game, and flight, which is a perk or tool that makes another core part of the game quicker/easier/more convenient/less tedious. Gating raids behind a large attunement (which has been done in previous expansions) prevents players from progressing their character until they've completed the attunements. Gating flying doesn't stop progression in any way unless you're unwilling to play the game at a pace/difficulty that Blizz decide is appropriate.
    Flight increases the power of the character, just like gear does. In a lot of very real ways, obtaining flight IS progressing your character. The attunement comparison is very apt in that regard. Open world content can be done without flight, and raids can be done without optimal gear. Do people WANT to do them that way, however? I'm guessing no.

    However, that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. It was an attempt to get people to think about flying from a perspective other than just "I don't care about flying, so why does it matter?". It's not a perfect comparison, but if you can put yourself into our shoes for a little while, I'd hope more understanding can be generated. All too often I see the assumption that people who want flight just want to skip everything, or are lazy, or don't care about the game. I was hoping to combat that, a little bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Now whilst you're clearly having a lot of fun using words
    You're only just now realizing this? ;D


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Personally I agree that having part of the Pathfinder achievement involve instanced content isn't a very good decision but I'd hardly call it a massive amount of effort to get 3 dungeons, maybe if it was a prolonged grind like MoP's dailies I'd take some issue but it really doesn't seem to be the case.

    Also what makes you consider the time of flight's release to be "arbitrary?" It seems quite clear that Blizz plan to unlock it when they've released the world content they're designing to be consumed in a "ground and pound" style .

    It's not just the three dungeons. It's the entire laundry list of virtually everything in the open world, with very little left over to use flight on afterwords. So yes, I do believe that's excessive. Just paying gold is the opposite end of the spectrum, and as I've said previously isn't a very good solution either. There should be something between the two, and it's very disappointing to see Blizzard repeating the extreme of Pathfinder two expansions in a row.


    Quote Originally Posted by rebecca191 View Post
    But then the second is exactly what you said. It's more subjective. It's about the feeling of the game and the world, and to me that is diminished by the lack of flight. The loss of being able to see the world from all angles and views. The feeling that my character is less of a hero, is weaker, can no longer do something it used to be able to do while random NPCs and flightmasters still can, for no story related reason whatsoever. It harms immersion for me when a mount with wings can't fly. It kills the feeling of this being a consistent world. It nags at my brain anytime I play because it just feels *wrong.* It just doesn't feel like the same game.
    I think a lot of people feel this way, and that paragraph is a VERY excellent explanation of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The requirements are designed to suck as much time from players as possible.
    Hmm....I think it would be more accurate to say that the pathfinder requirements are design to get players to consume as much of the available content as possible. That in and of itself will eat up a lot of time and extend the life of the expansion, if not actually extending the life of the content itself. As MoanaLisa said earlier, a lot more people are going to be working on the achievement, and I believe that's a pretty damn accurate statement.

    Now...all the stuff in-between the objectives? That's where you might have a point. From needlessly tedious back and forth travel of world quests, to Order Hall quest drops and missions being subject to RNG. The part where you have to complete 100 unique world quests comes to mind. There's a LOT of unique world quests, but RNG might cause you to repeat some of them. Why not just make it a flat 100 missions? And since missions reset on a timer, that's just one more time-gate.

    Is it too much? I personally can't say since I never got beta access. But it SEEMS a bit shady to me(granted, I might be a bit biased in this regard). Regardless, the hard-lock on Pathfinder parts 2+ make that all irrelevant anyway. Players who come in after Pathfinder is fully completable might have an issue with this, but by then there will be mitigating factors like higher iLVLs available to make killing quicker, and catch-up mechanics like Artifact Research.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Court of Stars and Arcway were not originally Mythic only, so that is why they were part of the Suramar quest line.
    I wasn't aware of that. Can you cite the source for that info? Would be interesting to see if there were normal/heroic versions before they went with Mythic only, or what lead to them changing to Mythic-only.


    Quote Originally Posted by wing5wong View Post
    Do they want you to play for more than 1 month? yes.

    Is that an issue for a subscription game where content is actually based on you playing for an extended time? no
    Actually, there's a pretty strong conflict of interests when it comes to the balance between artificially extending content and a subscription-based pay model. There will always be the temptation for the developers to make completing content take longer in order to boost profits(even if they actually don't do that). There will always be the question in the players' minds.

    For instance: Why don't bosses always drop the gear you need as an upgrade? You've overcome the challenge presented, so why do you often get nothing for it, or why do only some players in your raid get drops? It's to make you have to run the content again. And again, even after the skill-aspect of the encounter is trivial.

    While some amount of that is expected in MMORPGs, taking it too far can be a risky move for a game. A lot depends on the audience. Asian MMOs have LOTS of grinding, but that market doesn't care about it, and even likes it. But every Asian MMO that gets ported for a western audience cuts down on grind quite a bit.

    But to get back on topic, here's a relevant question: Would players do everything on the achievement list of Legion Pathfinder without the carrot of flying? Would that content stand on its own merit? Or will it only be completed because it's required for flight? And how many would FLY to those achievements if they could?

  18. #8658
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradingus View Post
    Man, people are really overreacting to this. I get that flying gets you places faster, but flying over everything so early in the expansion seems so anti-social, and like a spit in the face of the people who designed the areas in the game...
    Talk about overreacting...

  19. #8659
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    That's a little different than the message you conveyed. Saying you logged in to fly and kill time is different than stating you logged in to do things in the world that you found more enjoyable with flight, hence the request for clarification.
    No it's exactly the same message. You just took it literally for whatever reason. There was no need for me to describe in full details what I used flying for and what "killing time" entailed. My message was clear as is. I'm just surprised you didn't take "killing time" as literally as me shooting at the clock.

    I was logging in to fly and kill time - that's the gist of it. If you played wow you would know that that include archaeology, pet battles, rares, world bosses, dailies, exploration, farming, etc. Did you imply I had to go in THAT much of detail? I disagree obscenely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradingus View Post
    That's... not very nice.
    It's the most decent thing if you compare it to some people ruining a game because they think it's a painting and not entertainment.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2016-08-27 at 02:43 PM.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  20. #8660
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    Interesting thing in all of this is that the Broken Isles are quite small.. Even Draenor is larger than the Broken Isles when it comes to flying.. Taking the taxi bird in Legion you can not AFK for long before you are at your destination.. Where flying will help is bypassing areas in Suramar City..

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