"The Void is a more potent foe by far than the Burning Legion"

[Qualia]

I mean, we can deal with Sargeras without it being us to actually defeat him. Correct me if im wrong, but doesn't the AU universe of AU Draenor have an Azeroth aswell?

This is how I would have it go down. After we stomp the Legion this expac, the leaders of Azeroth brainstorm ways to possibly stand up to Sargeras. They realize they have no chance in hell so someone in the know like Magni or Velen mention the AU Azeroth. We head over there and see the Black Empire was never defeated.

Que Old God/Black Empire expansion. After fighting the Black Empire, we discover all life on AU Azeroth is dead. Making it ok for this AU Azeroth to awaken as the legendary titan it is destined to be. Using help from the titan spirits, we awaken AU Azeroth.

This AU Azeroth comes over to our reality and does battle with Sargeras.

Now that would be awesome.

That's a possibility, too. Although there are some minor issue (i.e: how did AU Azeroth withstand the Black Empire so long without being consumed into a Void Titan, MU Azeroth was on the verge of that when Aggramar found it), but I guess Blizzard can shrug those off with "Well, it's AU, events didn't happen the same way as they did in MU". However, we'd still need to reawake the Titans' spirits for their help, wouldn't we?

[Tripzzz]

That's a possibility, too. Although there are some minor issue (i.e: how did AU Azeroth withstand the Black Empire so long without being consumed into a Void Titan, MU Azeroth was on the verge of that when Aggramar found it), but I guess Blizzard can shrug those off with "Well, it's AU, events didn't happen the same way as they did in MU". However, we'd still need to reawake the Titans' spirits for their help, wouldn't we?

Yeah, but that is different than us chopping Sargeras balls off.
As for why AU Azeroth isn't completely corrupted, they could explain it by saying the AU Pantheon sacrificed themselves to hault the corruption. Otherwise we would have the AU Pantheon running around. Since there is only one fel Sargeras and an infinite number of AU Pantheon(something else which is retarded, but whatever.)

[Tenjen]

Don't see why the same people who stood by Illidan and the Illidari don't support the legion. It's is the same philosophy taken to its inevitable conclusion.

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On a separate note, we should consider the hand of the void in the arrokoa's curse and their use of shadow magic. In outland some were attempting to summon an old god minion.

[Deleted]

At this rate, it's very likely it will happen. Look, things are already pointing towards Argus - which means we'd be killing Kil'Jaeden permanently "soon". We'd likely hitting there within 1 or 2 expansions, if we aren't hitting it in Legion. When that happens, we'd be running out of Legion's leaders to fight. What else? Only Sargeras left. Are we just keep closing portals over and over? Does that really sound more interesting than dealing with him directly one way or another, closing Legion chapter (at least for a while) and introduce new threat(s)?

And lore-wise, not every pally are wielding Ashbringer. However, I can see that you are going to the I-hate-it = It's-retarded route, so I won't be nitpicking at this.

I think it'll go down like this: Our world soul (Azeroth) dies for good, maybe sacrificing herself and thereby empowering us. Our characters become massively empowered, essentially as big as zones and then together as 20 zone sized beings we bring the fight to Sargeras.. and win.

[Aquamonkey]

The way I still perceive is that despite the new nature of the shadow we talked about, it still balances the light in its own way. I mean, it really is a fact even in fiction (that sounded pretty weird but bear with me) that at least as long as there is light, there must be shadow.

But that's not true in Warcraft anymore. Chronicle destroyed that notion by stating that in the very beginning there was only Light.

[Deleted]

Yes, and Sargeras killed him. And Sargeras is afraid of the Void Lords.

Where do you get that 'fear' from? To me he is disgusted with them and would rather wipe off everything than let them pollute the universe. That being said both mine and yours statements are speculations. There is no mention of how exactly Sargeras felt

[Deleted]

But that's not true in Warcraft anymore. Chronicle destroyed that notion by stating that in the very beginning there was only Light.

I admit that I don't recall this being specifically said like that since I would remember it, but I will take your word for it.

[Strategos]

Don't see why the same people who stood by Illidan and the Illidari don't support the legion. It's is the same philosophy taken to its inevitable conclusion.

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On a separate note, we should consider the hand of the void in the arrokoa's curse and their use of shadow magic. In outland some were attempting to summon an old god minion.

It's not though. There is a pretty glaring difference. Illidan isn't trying to kill everyone - just the Legion

[Aucald]

Where do you get that 'fear' from? To me he is disgusted with them and would rather wipe off everything than let them pollute the universe. That being said both mine and yours statements are speculations. There is no mention of how exactly Sargeras felt

Chronicle states that Sargeras is afraid of the Void Lords, but I think that is meant to be taken that he is less afraid of them in the direct sense and more afraid of what they mean to the universe, the effects of their corrupting influence and the possibility of a Dark Titan. His power relative to theirs isn't a known quantity as of yet - but he seems to believe he can stop them either by destroying the universe itself or afterwards, somehow.

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But that's not true in Warcraft anymore. Chronicle destroyed that notion by stating that in the very beginning there was only Light.

I don't necessarily think that's the case, though. The Light did exist in an undifferentiated state, but the Void pretty much came into being as the Light suffused across the physical universe. In a way it's an inverse of the Abrahamic creation myths - instead of nothing existing first the Light did, and the Void followed right on its heels as it dispersed through space. They still keep one another in rough balance, and the Naaru (who seem to be the closest thing to avatars of Light energy) still state that without the Void there can be no Light. I don't see the Warcraft creation myth to be a retcon in that sense.

[Granyala]

Makes perfect sense, after all, the Titans battled evil and the old Gods long before the Burning Legion was formed.

[evermynd]

It's also mentioned that the void lords can't really do much to Sargeras because as a full grown titan he isn't corruptible. That's the whole reason that the void lords are going after world souls to begin with. It is their only way in.

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Makes perfect sense, after all, the Titans battled evil and the old Gods long before the Burning Legion was formed.

The titans didn't really battle the old gods before the burning legion. I don't think most of them fought an old god until aggramar discovered azeroth and sargeras had already defected at that point.

[Granyala]

Look, things are already pointing towards Argus - which means we'd be killing Kil'Jaeden permanently "soon".

The Legion would eliminate us through sheer numbers. An invasion of Argus would be nonsensical. A win even more so.

Unless we start recruiting alien worlds filled with Warriors, we lack the manpower to defeat the legion that conquered and transformed thousands if not millions of planets.

Plain and simple.

[Qualia]

The Legion would eliminate us through sheer numbers. An invasion of Argus would be nonsensical. A win even more so.

Unless we start recruiting alien worlds filled with Warriors, we lack the manpower to defeat the legion that conquered and transformed thousands if not millions of planets.

Plain and simple.

We wouldn't need to invade them. We could just use an elite force (aka the raiders, Velen, Naaru, etc.) to assault Argus when their focus was still on Azeroth, and kill KJ there. That'd give us our win; Without Archimonde & KJ, even if Sargeras was still there, the BL would be a lot less competent, making it easier to close the portal(s) on Azeroth. At least, we already have our shortcut to KJ's palace ready - set up by Illidan, just waiting to be opened. Velen is also itchy to fly there the moment Exodar is repaired as well.

I'm not saying that must be the case, but I'd say it has a good chance to happen. That was Illidan's plan in "Illidan" - he definitely didn't plan to fight against all BL demons before killing KJ.

[Granyala]

We wouldn't need to invade them. We could just use an elite force (aka the raiders, Velen, Naaru, etc.) to assault Argus when their focus was still on Azeroth, and kill KJ there. That'd give us our win. At least, we already have our shortcut to KJ's palace ready - set up by Illidan, just waiting to be opened.

Still BS.

They conquered THOUSANDS of planets. That means, for every denizen of Areroth there are easily 1000 demons.
If KJ has even a lick of sense, he will have set up a portal network that allows instantaneous reinforcements to be dispatched to every Legion world.

Yes a lot of them attack Azeroth. But they have more. Orders of magnitudes more.
Even our heroes should not be able to go against these odds.

Also, should the worst happen and KJ fall:
1) If I remember correctly, demons cannot be permanently killed. They migrate into the Nether and reincarnate sooner or later.
2) KJ will have seconds in command that can replace him and continue to guide the Legion.

Face it: the Legion has to been set up as an unbeatable enemy.

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That was Illidan's plan in "Illidan" - he definitely didn't plan to fight against all BL demons before killing KJ.

I get that.
But if you think about this from a tactical point of view, the leader wouldn't go "shit I need to fight them" w/o relying on his minions.
He would use his greatest asset and drown any attacker in sheer numbers.

There is no need for KJ to even lift a finger.

[Qualia]

Still BS.

They conquered THOUSANDS of planets. That means, for every denizen of Areroth there are easily 1000 demons.
If the KJ has even a lick of sense, he will have set up a portal network that allows instantaneous reinforcements to be dispatched to every Legion world.

Yes a lot of them attack Azeroth. But they have more. Orders of magnitudes more.
Even our heroes should not be able to go against these odds.

Also, should the worst happen and KJ fall:
1) If I remember correctly, demons cannot be permanently killed. They migrate into the Nether and reincarnate sooner or later.
2) KJ will have seconds in command that can replace him and continue to guide the Legion.

Face it: the Legion has to been set up as an unbeatable enemy.

Not really.

It's true that there are many many more demons in Legion. However, that doesn't mean they'd be waiting right next to KJ. After all, the Army of Light is there battling on Argus at the moment. They would prove to be a great help, even if just to distract the Legion to buy us time. For example, it would be too off for a Naaru to sacrifice himself to erect a Light barrier (Velen did that without sacrificing himself, after all) to temporarily prevent the demons from interfering with our assault. Moreover, noted that Illidan did believe that his plan had a chance of success, and Illidan didn't even know about the army of Light. When we assault Argus (probably the final patch, IF it's happening), we'd definitely be more powerful than Illidan's DH army.

Additionally, if KJ is defeated on Argus, he'd be finished for good. Argus is a place utterly saturated with the Nether energies, as stated in Illidan

The spirits of demons can only be destroyed in the Twisting Nether, in places where it bleeds into the world of mortals, or in places utterly saturated with the demonic energies of the Burning Legion. Nathreza was one such place. Argus is another.

We haven't seen any "seconds in commands that can replace him and continue to guide the Legion" so far. Archimonde was KJ's equal and could do that - unfortunately, he is dead.

However, *you are right* that in a perfectly realistic situation, the Legion is practically unbeatable. Still, plot-induced stupidity is there in fiction for a reason. Otherwise, ask yourself - why didn't Archimonde just destroy AU Draenor apart in our fight? He was perfectly able to do that to other planet(s) effortlessly in Velen's vision. What happened to Finger of Death? Why would the demons - KJ / the Nathrezim for example - ever want to stay in their homeworlds where they can be permanently killed? Wouldn't it be smarter to stay in another planet that isn't anywhere near the Nether yet? Why didn't Gul'dan destroy or capture Illidan's soul, but released him into the Nether - not even where KJ is - instead? All that happens for one simple reason - we need to win.

[Tenjen]

It's not though. There is a pretty glaring difference. Illidan isn't trying to kill everyone - just the Legion

It very much is. Sagaras started out with noble intentions and his methodology decayed over time. Illidan is just in the early stages of what Sargaras went through, give him time.

Plus "kill everyone" was pretty much Illidan's strategy on outland.

[Enthralled]

It very much is. Sagaras started out with noble intentions and his methodology decayed over time. Illidan is just in the early stages of what Sargaras went through, give him time.

Plus "kill everyone" was pretty much Illidan's strategy on outland.

You're a bit behind on the lore and one of the main story arcs coming in the next expansion.

[Tenjen]

You're a bit behind on the lore and one of the main story arcs coming in the next expansion.

i know what you're referring to, but i still say there's going to be time.

[Enthralled]

i know what you're referring to, but i still say there's going to be time.

But you're also way off about his Outland strategy. Outside of a poorly-excuted attempt to drain water from Zangarmarsh and the orcs of HFP, it's not like he was trying rain death and destruction all over Outland. He was holed up in BT and his minions are largely contained in Shadowmoon Valley. From the outside, no one knew exactly what he was up to there except that it looked mighty fishy.

[Aquamonkey]

I admit that I don't recall this being specifically said like that since I would remember it, but I will take your word for it.

I don't necessarily think that's the case, though. The Light did exist in an undifferentiated state, but the Void pretty much came into being as the Light suffused across the physical universe. In a way it's an inverse of the Abrahamic creation myths - instead of nothing existing first the Light did, and the Void followed right on its heels as it dispersed through space. They still keep one another in rough balance, and the Naaru (who seem to be the closest thing to avatars of Light energy) still state that without the Void there can be no Light. I don't see the Warcraft creation myth to be a retcon in that sense.

Light first. The Void formed later.

Unfettered by the confines of time and space, the Light swelled across all existence in the form of a boundless prismatic sea. Great torrents of living energy flitted through its mirrored depths, their movements conjuring a symphony of joy and hope.
The ocean of Light was dynamic and ever shifting. Yet as it expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From the absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.
This power was the Void...
--Chronicle