1. #8661
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    Interesting thing in all of this is that the Broken Isles are quite small.. Even Draenor is larger than the Broken Isles when it comes to flying.. Taking the taxi bird in Legion you can not AFK for long before you are at your destination.. Where flying will help is bypassing areas in Suramar City..
    Are you suggesting that Legion needs no-flight, or else the players will notice how small the world is? O.o

  2. #8662
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    Interesting thing in all of this is that the Broken Isles are quite small.. Even Draenor is larger than the Broken Isles when it comes to flying.. Taking the taxi bird in Legion you can not AFK for long before you are at your destination.. Where flying will help is bypassing areas in Suramar City..
    And that will be needed, Suramar City is hell on wheels for any class without extreme survivability, self-healing or ability to get out of combat. Even with the Disguise there are so many damn things that can and will knock you out of it with little warning while surrounded by dozens of mobs that now want to eat your face.
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  3. #8663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connll View Post
    Are you suggesting that Legion needs no-flight, or else the players will notice how small the world is? O.o
    The new zones as a whole are a lot smaller than Draenor, where flying will help is in gathering and bypassing pain in the butt areas, ie Suramar City Elite Mob section..

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    Quote Originally Posted by FertsBlert View Post
    And that will be needed, Suramar City is hell on wheels for any class without extreme survivability, self-healing or ability to get out of combat. Even with the Disguise there are so many damn things that can and will knock you out of it with little warning while surrounded by dozens of mobs that now want to eat your face.
    Yeah I did not even attempt the quests that had me going into the elite mob section in beta was too much a pain in the ass for sure..

  4. #8664
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    The new zones as a whole are a lot smaller than Draenor, where flying will help is in gathering and bypassing pain in the butt areas, ie Suramar City Elite Mob section..

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah I did not even attempt the quests that had me going into the elite mob section in beta was too much a pain in the ass for sure..

    And Legion nets even more negative points... -.-

  5. #8665
    Quote Originally Posted by FertsBlert View Post
    And that will be needed, Suramar City is hell on wheels for any class without extreme survivability, self-healing or ability to get out of combat. Even with the Disguise there are so many damn things that can and will knock you out of it with little warning while surrounded by dozens of mobs that now want to eat your face.
    The worst problem is if you have an AoE you have no control over (eg Sub rogues which triggers as soon as you exit stealth) will aggro mobs. Bottom line is Blizzard is committed to given a savage ground and pound experienced with scaled up NPCs and players are going to revolt against the ground and pound vision.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=253548/c...rs-requirement

    Seeing how this dungeon attunement experiment has played out over the past few weeks, there's no question that tuning and pacing are currently missing the mark. Even setting aside item level expectations, when it comes to Normal and Heroic difficulty, most max-level players use the random dungeon queue. Going from picking a random 1 out of 8 dungeons to a random 1 out of 9 or 10 doesn't feel like much of a reward. And early players to unlock them would have faced brutal wait times if they tried to queue for those dungeons specifically, due to the small matchmaking pool. That's of course a far cry from the excitement of earning access to a new Heroic dungeon back in Burning Crusade, for example.

    But at the same time, closely tying these dungeons to the zone progression strengthens both sides of the equation. Each dungeon is situated in the context of the overall story arc of the zone (particularly important for Court of Stars), and the zone storyline offers access to meaningful new content as a reward to complement the usual items and Artifact Power.

    In the next beta build, both Arcway and Court of Stars will only be available as Mythic dungeons, unlocked at an appropriate point midway through the main Suramar questline. And in hopefully the build after that, you'll see a few extra items spicing up the loot tables of those dungeons as an extra attraction once they're unlocked. Their Normal and Heroic versions were already far less likely to be seen, due to queue mechanics, and this change is aimed at clarifying the role of these dungeons as endgame unlocked content.

    It's crucial to remember that while the label "Mythic" may conjure up visions of hardcore raiding and may seem intimidating for those who haven't yet tried them, the main difference between Heroic and Mythic dungeons lies in the expected item level (810 vs. 830ish) and the fact that there is no random matchmaking available for the latter. An organized group of 5 players with experience and gear from Heroic dungeons should find success when venturing into Mythic. Higher levels of Mythic, accessed via Keystones, are where the major challenges lie.
    Correct. Standard Mythic dungeons (zone in, kill stuff, loot stuff, weekly lockout) will be open right away. The only part that won't be there right away is the "Mythic+" Keystone system, since that parallels other endgame progression systems like raiding and the rated PvP season.
    The Arcway and Court of Stars quests will be optional - they'll become available at the appropriate points in the story, but you'll be able to continue the main quest campaign even if you don't finish them. The intent is for unlocking Suramar's dungeons to be a reward for progressing that far in the questline, not to block further quest progress until they are completed.
    Enjoy doing Suramar for the patchfinder part 1 achieve! The QQ on the forums will be immense.

  6. #8666
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    There's something to that point which I just can't seem to put my finger on. If so many people are putting such effort into completing the achievement, it seems like maybe flight ought to be worth more when it's finally available? That is to say, things which flight can be used for other than just content which was already cleared in the process of obtaining it. I'm not articulating this very well. Hmm....
    My point has little to do with use after you get it and I think you are looking at it backwards when you say that "maybe flight ought to be worth more when it's finally available". A lot of people want to fly for their own reasons and are willing to do quite a bit to acquire it. It's already worth more to people in and of itself as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the last three years.

    Flying, perhaps unexpectedly for the developers in their little HQ bubble, was something that people cared about enormously and handing it out for leveling plus a few thousand gold was greatly undervaluing it. Flying has game design leverage in that many players will play the game and happy to X/Y/Z to acquire it. Because people cared so much about it, it returned with a higher cost that was more in line with how developers understood the value of flying to players.

    Some players--many I would think--value it as the simple freedom to get up into the air and fly as pure pleasure. I may be projecting there because that's how I feel about it but I've seen that sentiment expressed many times. Personally I think it's the best reward in the game as it is now. There is no more clear signal to other players that you yourself take the world game seriously than to be able to fly over them. It's better than a title. In the game it's pretty much the ultimate "Look at what I can do". And that, I think, is how we got to where we now are. The big reward for exploring the world thoroughly, befriending its people, learning their stories, and taking part solving their problems is to be able to lift off that world.

    There cannot be any such meta achievement to reward the privilege of raiding. Having such a thing would damage raiding even further. And that's why I speculate that people care more about flying than raiding. It has a cost in what you have to do to acquire it, a cost that people seem willing to pay. Create a cost like that for raiding? I don't think so.

    Nonetheless, it will be interesting to do an armory run six months after the flying meta can be completed to compare how many have done it versus how many have done the raiding achievements.
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  7. #8667
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Seeing how this dungeon attunement experiment has played out over the past few weeks, there's no question that tuning and pacing are currently missing the mark. Even setting aside item level expectations, when it comes to Normal and Heroic difficulty, most max-level players use the random dungeon queue. Going from picking a random 1 out of 8 dungeons to a random 1 out of 9 or 10 doesn't feel like much of a reward. And early players to unlock them would have faced brutal wait times if they tried to queue for those dungeons specifically, due to the small matchmaking pool.
    The highlighted sentence always confused me. They know that almost everyone is using the matchmaking. So instead of figuring out a way to balance and improve that, they ignore it entirely? This is the same thing they did with flight. Instead of addressing the issue, they avoid it. Couldn't they have put Mythic it its own, separate queue, along with all the other mythic 5-man stuff, and let the chips fall where they may? Mythic+ takes the place of the more high-end content for organized groups. As they themselves said, Mythic isn't all that hard(on the same level as some previous heroics, which is what people use the queue for!).

    Sort of like what MoanaLisa said a little while ago: A LOT of players want to use flight. Why not address the issues it presents(in any of the multitude of suggested ways), and incorporate it into the game instead of avoid it entirely?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    My point has little to do with use after you get it and I think you are looking at it backwards when you say that "maybe flight ought to be worth more when it's finally available". A lot of people want to fly for their own reasons and are willing to do quite a bit to acquire it. It's already worth more to people in and of itself as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the last three years.

    Flying, perhaps unexpectedly for the developers in their little HQ bubble, was something that people cared about enormously and handing it out for leveling plus a few thousand gold was greatly undervaluing it. Flying has game design leverage in that many players will play the game and happy to X/Y/Z to acquire it. Because people cared so much about it, it returned with a higher cost that was more in line with how developers understood the value of flying to players.

    Some players--many I would think--value it as the simple freedom to get up into the air and fly as pure pleasure. I may be projecting there because that's how I feel about it but I've seen that sentiment expressed many times. Personally I think it's the best reward in the game as it is now. There is no more clear signal to other players that you yourself take the world game seriously than to be able to fly over them. It's better than a title. In the game it's pretty much the ultimate "Look at what I can do". And that, I think, is how we got to where we now are. The big reward for exploring the world thoroughly, befriending its people, learning their stories, and taking part solving their problems is to be able to lift off that world.

    There cannot be any such meta achievement to reward the privilege of raiding. Having such a thing would damage raiding even further. And that's why I speculate that people care more about flying than raiding. It has a cost in what you have to do to acquire it, a cost that people seem willing to pay. Create a cost like that for raiding? I don't think so.

    Nonetheless, it will be interesting to do an armory run six months after the flying meta can be completed to compare how many have done it versus how many have done the raiding achievements.
    One of the main points I've brought up again and again throws some of what you just said into question, however. IS flight really worth that much, given the requirements of pathfinder? Once you get it, certainly some people will fly just to enjoy it, or to use it to clean up some of the side-tasks that WoW's open world offers(archaeology, fishing, gathering, alts, etc). But what about the main progression of a character and the story? In previous expansions where flight was available right at level cap, flight was able to be used to continue pushing forward through whatever future content was released. Except even that was mitigated by no-fly islands, and the primary progression of a level capped character being so heavily tied to raiding.

    But despite that, as you say, many players like me have placed great value on flying. But I'm starting to think that, when so much of the value is mitigated by the lack of content to use it on, and the lion's share of progression being in instances, that Blizzard is devaluing flight immensely. The power of flight becomes useful only in very limited circumstances, and that's kind of what I'm fighting against.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-08-27 at 06:17 PM.

  8. #8668
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sort of like what MoanaLisa said a little while ago: A LOT of players want to use flight. Why not address the issues it presents(in any of the multitude of suggested ways), and incorporate it into the game instead of avoid it entirely?
    Because the dev team, for whatever reason, is really really REALLY against Flight. They have "included" it in WoD only because they were forced to do so, and in Legion they intend to as much as possible to delay its implementation as long as possible.

    In fact *I* think it is entirely within the realm of possibility for them to try to stealthly remove Flight one more time. (Patch Finder is so obnoxious that not many people actually complete it, so they take as "evidence" that the comunity doesn´t want Flight back, for instance)

  9. #8669
    Part of the problem, I think, is that the power of flying is too binary. In a lot of ways, it's either on or off. You either have it or you don't. You're either in the air, or you're not. You're either moving at walking speed, in combat, or you're in full no-clip mode at nearly 400% speed.

    In a raiding situation, a character is often slowly progressing, through gear and through different bosses. I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if flight also use a power-curve of progression and use. I think I've suggested a few times that I thought maybe flight should start out weak, like only being a leap or gliding at slow speeds, then slowly improve as the expansion progressed, unlocking more speed and utility through the completion of various achievements. Tie it to the story progress as well, to give it context.

    Oh well. I guess it's close enough to launch that we'll just get what we get, and see how things turn out.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-08-27 at 06:51 PM.

  10. #8670
    Quote Originally Posted by Connll View Post
    Because the dev team, for whatever reason, is really really REALLY against Flight. They have "included" it in WoD only because they were forced to do so, and in Legion they intend to as much as possible to delay its implementation as long as possible.

    In fact *I* think it is entirely within the realm of possibility for them to try to stealthly remove Flight one more time. (Patch Finder is so obnoxious that not many people actually complete it, so they take as "evidence" that the comunity doesn´t want Flight back, for instance)
    Yup.

    The first time they tried to remove the damage, healing and tanking forums players resisted. This time around they tried again and they successfully did it a few weeks ago.

    They will try again if you don't stay vigilant as flying impedes their vision of a self sustaining MMORPG as WoW approaches year 15 and year 20.

  11. #8671
    Quote Originally Posted by Connll View Post
    Because the dev team, for whatever reason, is really really REALLY against Flight. They have "included" it in WoD only because they were forced to do so, and in Legion they intend to as much as possible to delay its implementation as long as possible.

    In fact *I* think it is entirely within the realm of possibility for them to try to stealthly remove Flight one more time. (Patch Finder is so obnoxious that not many people actually complete it, so they take as "evidence" that the comunity doesn´t want Flight back, for instance)
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Part of the problem, I think, is that the power of flying is too binary. In a lot of ways, it's either on or off. You either have it or you don't. You're either in the air, or you're not. You're either moving at walking speed, in combat, or you're in full no-clip mode at nearly 400% speed.

    In a raiding situation, a character is often slowly progressing, through gear and through different bosses. I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if flight also use a power-curve of progression and use. I think I've suggested a few times that I thought maybe flight should start out weak, like only being a leap or gliding at slow speeds, then slowly improve as the expansion progressed, unlocking more speed and utility through the completion of various achievements. Tie it to the story progress as well, to give it context.

    Oh well. I guess it's close enough to launch that we'll just get what we get, and see how things turn out.
    The reason has already debated many time in this thread they are against it because is way more simple to remove or gate it than developing a zone with it and even more than change it in a way that surpass the mere "transportation" and become a real integrated part of gameplay.

    In wod flying was introduced when the outside world wasn't current anymore, by the time someone completed the taanan part all the zone were already obsolete, flying was mainly used on alts levelling and maybe some complementary activity.

    In legion it's the same by the time you unlock it legion world content would be obsolete, they may implement a new "island of ..." and make a no fly zone that is if they go by their world that flying will be unlocked mid xpack.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  12. #8672
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Part of the problem, I think, is that the power of flying is too binary. In a lot of ways, it's either on or off. You either have it or you don't. You're either in the air, or you're not. You're either moving at walking speed, in combat, or you're in full no-clip mode at nearly 400% speed.

    In a raiding situation, a character is often slowly progressing, through gear and through different bosses. I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if flight also use a power-curve of progression and use. I think I've suggested a few times that I thought maybe flight should start out weak, like only being a leap or gliding at slow speeds, then slowly improve as the expansion progressed, unlocking more speed and utility through the completion of various achievements. Tie it to the story progress as well, to give it context.

    Oh well. I guess it's close enough to launch that we'll just get what we get, and see how things turn out.
    I've wanted to see this, start it out as gliding (such as with the feather) where you get pushed up then glide down. Then unlock 150% flight, then finally the ultimate flight. I'd love to see flight used as an actual mechanic in questing, since back in BC they were EXCITED to showcase this new thing and incorporated it into accessing dungeons and parts of quests.

    As it is, they've just gotten lazy, but I never really "missed" it and was enjoying all of the stuff they were making on the ground.

    At least this time, we've known about no flight for a long time, so there won't be as much whining about flip flopping.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Yup.

    The first time they tried to remove the damage, healing and tanking forums players resisted. This time around they tried again and they successfully did it a few weeks ago.

    They will try again if you don't stay vigilant as flying impedes their vision of a self sustaining MMORPG as WoW approaches year 15 and year 20.
    How does flying impede on WoW being a self-sustaining MMO? This seems like some silly conspiracy theory.
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  13. #8673
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    The reason has already debated many time in this thread they are against it because is way more simple to remove or gate it than developing a zone with it and even more than change it in a way that surpass the mere "transportation" and become a real integrated part of gameplay.

    In wod flying was introduced when the outside world wasn't current anymore, by the time someone completed the taanan part all the zone were already obsolete, flying was mainly used on alts levelling and maybe some complementary activity.

    In legion it's the same by the time you unlock it legion world content would be obsolete, they may implement a new "island of ..." and make a no fly zone that is if they go by their world that flying will be unlocked mid xpack.
    They want not to set up their game in the delivery of a quality product, they want to take a uninspired (one might even say, lazy) approach to the development.

    And to charge more for the box, too.


  14. #8674
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    The reason has already debated many time in this thread they are against it because is way more simple to remove or gate it than developing a zone with it and even more than change it in a way that surpass the mere "transportation" and become a real integrated part of gameplay.
    Except they spent all that time trying to include silly little jump puzzles and hidden objects. Couldn't they have spent that time improving and integrating flight instead? Granted, flight effects almost every outdoor encounter far more than simply dropping a stupid jump puzzle in the middle of nowhere. But they've clearly built Legion around the ability of Demon Hunters to double jump and glide. So I don't see that it would be THAT much more of a stretch to include a progressing version of flight as well(except it would infringe on demon hunters' appeal, and god forbid they detract from the poster child of the expansion).

    All in all, maybe it's just my optimistic mind, but all I see are chances where Blizzard could have improved the situation instead of simply removing it. I mean, think about all the little things they've put in the game instead of flying. The flight path whistle, goblin gliders, demon hunter jump+glide, the aviana's feather type toy, etc. What if they'd just incorporated all those little things into a single system of mounts and put it into a progressing tree of abilities similar to the artifact trees? Then given it context it with story and lore.

  15. #8675
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    How does flying impede on WoW being a self-sustaining MMO?
    How does repeating one of the many, MANY mistakes that cost WoW MILLIONS of subscriptions, enable WoW to be "self-sustaining"?

  16. #8676
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    I've wanted to see this, start it out as gliding (such as with the feather) where you get pushed up then glide down. Then unlock 150% flight, then finally the ultimate flight. I'd love to see flight used as an actual mechanic in questing, since back in BC they were EXCITED to showcase this new thing and incorporated it into accessing dungeons and parts of quests.
    Could take it a step further. Make it a talent tree or artifact tree, like I just mentioned. Starts out with bog standard ground mount speed. Each stage of the pathfinder achievement goes into a branching improvement. Ground mounts get faster speed, dismount protection, a leap on a cooldown, maybe a sprint on a cooldown, or attack/spellpower buff while mounted. The air mount side of the tree starts out slower(60%) initially, or only as a glide on a cooldown, but improves up to a permanent 150 or 200 the more of the pathfinder achievement you complete, or the further into the expansion it goes.

    I think that would be a hell of a lot more interesting and engaging than the laundry list of pathfinder. But that's maybe just more dev time than Blizzard wants to put into the issue, which is a shame.

  17. #8677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connll View Post
    How does repeating one of the many, MANY mistakes that cost WoW MILLIONS of subscriptions, enable WoW to be "self-sustaining"?
    I have serious doubts about any particular inclusion or removal of a feature or features being what cost WoW millions of subs. WoW has very predictably followed the product life cycle of all games. And as much as people roll their eyes, you look at past curves of MMOs, current MMOs, and online games and their active player base follows a curve of an almost identical nature, just of different amounts/time periods.

    Some people quit and they say it is because of a particular feature, but I'm more inclined to believe that they're just bored with a game they've been playing for a very long time. If they were having fun with the rest of the game, the number of people who would have left simply over flying would be very small. If they're not having fun with other features and are bored, have no friends, then flying might have just been that straw that broke the camel's back.
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  18. #8678
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    Only "no flying" essentially cut off the "rest of the game" for people like me. So there's nothing simple about quitting over no flying. I would love to continue to play it, but it's become a pain in the ass to move around in it. And there's also a matter of principle and common sense. If I continue to play and PAY I will just say Blizzard "CARRY ON, I'M FINE" - now why would I do that?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  19. #8679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Only "no flying" essentially cut off the "rest of the game" for people like me. So there's nothing simple about quitting over no flying. I would love to continue to play it, but it's become a pain in the ass to move around in it. And there's also a matter of principle and common sense. If I continue to play and PAY I will just say Blizzard "CARRY ON, I'M FINE" - now why would I do that?
    So you just simply refuse to go anywhere if you can't fly there? You're not cut off, you're cutting yourself off. Sounds like the rest of the game wasn't all that entertaining if getting there 3 times faster is what it takes to make you want to do it in the first place.

    Gathering sure, it's a pain without flight. But anything else pretty much excludes flight as a mechanic, since you don't do it in raids or dungeons, and at least within warlords there are flight paths within a less than 15 second ride from the pet masters, save one (one for alliance and one for horde).

    I mean I'm all for discussing the merits and pitfalls of flight or exclusion thereof, but some people get downright silly with what they say. If the game is only fun with flight, it sounds like pretty much every feature that didn't involve flight directly (all of them, except gathering) weren't that fun in the first place.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2016-08-27 at 09:06 PM.
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  20. #8680
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    So you just simply refuse to go anywhere if you can't fly there?
    I can't go anywhere. The moment I start moving out on a ground mount I become so bored I just log off. It's a waste of time that offers nothing in return and I cannot take it. I value my time.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    You're not cut off, you're cutting yourself off.
    Yeah, yeah, blame the customer not the service.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Sounds like the rest of the game wasn't all that entertaining
    Seems like arm-chair psycho-analysis is still a thing on the Internets.

    How about you listen to what I say and take it for what it is, rather than letting cognitive dissonance to kick in and imagining the "rationale" that fits your narrative.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

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