[Guardian] Legion Discussion

[huth]

I know exactly what double dipping means, and I assumed it was the point of the mastery in the first place.

You thought 3(mostly pretty minor) heals double dipping was the point of the mastery?

Er...

[Bearshield]

It's a creative and spec fantasy fitting way of giving you additional mitigation. Kind of the entire point of a tank Mastery.

Mastery has nothing to do with "class fantasy", and realistically, healing has never fit a bear fantasy in the first place. When I think of a bear, I think of a massive animal that's sturdy enough to take a beating. That would imply heavy armor or in the case of WoW, extremely strong mitigation. Healing is "magic", which much like Moonfire, has absolutely nothing to do with a Bear. A bear in my opinion, is basically a giant furry warrior with a slightly different toolkit. That is what it used to be, and it made sense.

[Kaeth]

Healing is "magic", which much like Moonfire, has absolutely nothing to do with a Bear. A bear in my opinion, is basically a giant furry warrior with a slightly different toolkit. That is what it used to be, and it made sense.

A bear druid is first, and foremost, a druid. Nature magic and celestial magic are part of that. You're not playing as an actual wild bear; you're a druid who specializes in turning into a bear.

[Bearshield]

A bear druid is first, and foremost, a druid. Nature magic and celestial magic are part of that. You're not playing as an actual wild bear; you're a druid who specializes in turning into a bear.

You take on the form of the bear, thus you become a wild animal.

Going by your logic, I should be able to cast ALL my spells in bear form yet I do not see people arguing in favor of that...

[Bearygood]

Has this been applied? AP still the same

[CenariusTheForestLord]

Has this been applied? AP still the same

The hotfix wording is very weirdly written. It sounds as if 1% Mastery is supposed to give 1% AP. While it should be 1 for 2 now that they changed it.
As the hotfix is written, live is correct. However that was what they said was a bug. I'm confused.

[Hobbs]

I know exactly what double dipping means, and I assumed it was the point of the mastery in the first place.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The point of the mastery is to give us increased health and healing received. Makes sense for a big, tough bear who can just soak up hits and injuries (and can even conserve energy to "heal" it back over time, i.e. hibernation - frenzied regen).

Percentage based heals shouldn't benefit from the increased healing received portion of the mastery because they already scale with mastery in the form of our max health. I'm with huth that the mastery fits the class theme, and it makes no sense for percent heals to scale with both portions (double dip) of our mastery. That would be broken and problematic both now and in the future.

The old toolkit centered on dodge made little sense for a bear. They're fast, but I think it's fair to say most people wouldn't picture a bear when trying to think of the most agile animals.

[Bearygood]

The hotfix wording is very weirdly written. It sounds as if 1% Mastery is supposed to give 1% AP. While it should be 1 for 2 now that they changed it.
As the hotfix is written, live is correct. However that was what they said was a bug. I'm confused.

so it literally changed nothing?

[Ikee]

I'm not sure if Blizzard wants people to play guardian. This seems like a developer looked at the bug report and could not see what the problem was marked it as solved and was done with it.

Also why are there only 5 skins when every other artifact including Feral has 6 ?

[Sar-]

His Artifact is way off, going after EoTN first...

As you should do really?

This'll be my path: EotN -> Gory -> Adaptive

My Stat Prio: Mastery ~ Versatility > Haste > Crit

[dcc626]

Which neck enchant will people be using? Which potion?

[Bearshield]

The old toolkit centered on dodge made little sense for a bear. They're fast, but I think it's fair to say most people wouldn't picture a bear when trying to think of the most agile animals.

The original Bear was a high health, heavily armored tank. We have gone through several overhauls since that time, but that will always be what I picture when I think of bears.

[huth]

When I think of a bear, I think of a massive animal that's sturdy enough to take a beating.

And Guardian mastery does what? Right. It makes you a sturdy animal, by way of giving you a huge health pool. Which actually makes a lot more sense than giving you more armor for no good reason. You're a bear, not a turtle.

Increasing your health is the primary effect of Guardian mastery, not some secondary bonus. Increasing healing received(not "healing you") is a necessary secondary power so you don't just become a mana drain for your healers.

You take on the form of the bear, thus you become a wild animal.

Going by your logic, I should be able to cast ALL my spells in bear form yet I do not see people arguing in favor of that...

You take on the physical form of a bear. Not his mental abilities. At least, you shouldn't.

Seriously, your arguments make little to no sense. You don't even seem to really understand what Guardian mastery does or why. Increased healing is a necessary secondary power to make it work, not the primary benefit.

The hotfix wording is very weirdly written. It sounds as if 1% Mastery is supposed to give 1% AP. While it should be 1 for 2 now that they changed it.
As the hotfix is written, live is correct. However that was what they said was a bug. I'm confused.

No, it's written correctly, while the hotfix may or may not be working currently. Problem is that Mastery points aren't displayed in the interface, and haven't been since MoP pre-patch. AP gained should be twice your health bonus percentage.(i.e. Guardian Mastery should be 1% AP and 0.5% Health/Healing per point of Mastery, or 110 rating at level 100)

[Bearygood]

And Guardian mastery does what? Right. It makes you a sturdy animal, by way of giving you a huge health pool. Which actually makes a lot more sense than giving you more armor for no good reason. You're a bear, not a turtle.

Increasing your health is the primary effect of Guardian mastery, not some secondary bonus. Increasing healing received(not "healing you") is a necessary secondary power so you don't just become a mana drain for your healers.


You take on the physical form of a bear. Not his mental abilities. At least, you shouldn't.

Seriously, your arguments make little to no sense. You don't even seem to really understand what Guardian mastery does or why. Increased healing is a necessary secondary power to make it work, not the primary benefit.


No, it's written correctly, while the hotfix may or may not be working currently. Problem is that Mastery points aren't displayed in the interface, and haven't been since MoP pre-patch. AP gained should be twice your health bonus percentage.(i.e. Guardian Mastery should be 1% AP and 0.5% Health/Healing per point of Mastery, or 110 rating at level 100)

The wording for everything sounds far more complicated than it should be

AP remains the same as before the hotfix so I think it's doing nothing.

[huth]

The wording for everything sounds far more complicated than it should be

AP remains the same as before the hotfix so I think it's doing nothing.

Honestly, i think they should just re-introduce the display of Mastery points. It would make it far easier to understand. Mastery buff was just +5 Mastery during Cataclysm instead of specifying the rating.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

No, it's written correctly, while the hotfix may or may not be working currently. Problem is that Mastery points aren't displayed in the interface, and haven't been since MoP pre-patch. AP gained should be twice your health bonus percentage.(i.e. Guardian Mastery should be 1% AP and 0.5% Health/Healing per point of Mastery, or 110 rating at level 100)

Yes, but wouldn't it be easier to make a mastery point be the actual mastery point (halved now) so we see 18% mastery and it actually is 18% instead of a hidden 36 that is then halved for actual use?

Or at least keep it the way it is, but make mastery display as 36% and then say in the tooltip: AP increased by 36% also increase healing/health by 18.

They can't try both at the same time. that's just silly. (IE keep mastery at 36 behind the scenes, but for all intents and purposes make it 18)

EDIT: 18 and 36 are just made up numbers to express my point.

[huth]

Yes, but wouldn't it be easier to make a mastery point be the actual mastery point (halved now) so we see 18% mastery and it actually is 18% instead of a hidden 36 that is then halved for actual use?

Or at least keep it the way it is, but make mastery display as 36% and then say in the tooltip: AP increased by 36% also increase healing/health by 18.

No, because Mastery points are identical across all specs. Mastery percentages on the other hand are not.

Guardian Mastery displays as x% + 2x% AP because the former is the primary effect, while the AP is just a bonus.

[Bearshield]

And Guardian mastery does what? Right. It makes you a sturdy animal, by way of giving you a huge health pool. Which actually makes a lot more sense than giving you more armor for no good reason. You're a bear, not a turtle.

Increasing your health is the primary effect of Guardian mastery, not some secondary bonus. Increasing healing received(not "healing you") is a necessary secondary power so you don't just become a mana drain for your healers.


You take on the physical form of a bear. Not his mental abilities. At least, you shouldn't.

Seriously, your arguments make little to no sense. You don't even seem to really understand what Guardian mastery does or why. Increased healing is a necessary secondary power to make it work, not the primary benefit.

I simply stated my opinion and rather than just disagreeing, you continue to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have mained a Druid tank since early vanilla and MY class fantasy is the old bear with a crapton of armor AND health. The class fantasy for the Druid was that of the class who could cast magic spells in his main form, or give that up to take on the form of powerful animals and fulfill a different role. You become the bear, you give up access to your magic and gain the abilities of the bear. I don't think I've ever seen a Druid NPC cast spells from bear or cat form. If it is simply a physical transformation, then I ask again, why can you not cast any of your spells in bear form?

The mastery affects both health and healing received. You can argue over Blizzard's intent behind each of these things, but the fact is, they are both a part of the total benefit of mastery. As I said, I am not new to tanking and am well aware of the concept of the mana sponge and the necessity of doing something to offset a huge HP pool. My point is that the increased healing is every bit as important to the mastery as the health bar itself and that yes, to many of us, it did make sense for it to double dip. The fact that it survived ALL of beta and only was changed days before release tells me that myself, and others that I've spoken to on this issue were not alone in our believe that it worked just fine.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

No, because Mastery points are identical across all specs. Mastery percentages on the other hand are not.

Guardian Mastery displays as x% + 2x% AP because the former is the primary effect, while the AP is just a bonus.

I think we're thinking of points as a different system. If I get an item with say 1000 mastery on it. According to you I just got 1000 points. This is true, but gets converted in the background to a %, in my example 36. This is what the blue called a mastery point. He meant a percentage of the actual mastery behind the scenes. Else the statement each mastery point gives 1% of AP would make no sense. I'm just saying it's annoying having a percentage nobody can see that controls the scaling of our stats.

- - - Updated - - -

I simply stated my opinion and rather than just disagreeing, you continue to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have mained a Druid tank since early vanilla and MY class fantasy is the old bear with a crapton of armor AND health. The class fantasy for the Druid was that of the class who could cast magic spells in his main form, or give that up to take on the form of powerful animals and fulfill a different role. You become the bear, you give up access to your magic and gain the abilities of the bear. I don't think I've ever seen a Druid NPC cast spells from bear or cat form. If it is simply a physical transformation, then I ask again, why can you not cast any of your spells in bear form?

The mastery affects both health and healing received. You can argue over Blizzard's intent behind each of these things, but the fact is, they are both a part of the total benefit of mastery. As I said, I am not new to tanking and am well aware of the concept of the mana sponge and the necessity of doing something to offset a huge HP pool. My point is that the increased healing is every bit as important to the mastery as the health bar itself and that yes, to many of us, it did make sense for it to double dip. The fact that it survived ALL of beta and only was changed days before release tells me that myself, and others that I've spoken to on this issue were not alone in our believe that it worked just fine.

Not to burst your bubble here but: Moonfire

[huth]

I think we're thinking of points as a different system. If I get an item with say 1000 mastery on it. According to you I just got 1000 points. This is true, but gets converted in the background to a %, in my example 36. This is what the blue called a mastery point. He meant a percentage of the actual mastery behind the scenes. Else the statement each mastery point gives 1% of AP would make no sense. I'm just saying it's annoying having a percentage nobody can see that controls the scaling of our stats.

Mastery rating != Mastery points. At 100, the conversion rate is 110 rating per point of Mastery. This is the part that is identical for all specs of all classes.

You're actually missing a conversion step. Rating gets converted to Mastery, which then gets converted to a percentage depending on spec.

Guardian gets 0.5% health and healing received per point of Mastery. Balance gets 2% bonus per point of Mastery.