"The Void is a more potent foe by far than the Burning Legion"

[Aquamonkey]

Kil'Jaden was probably assigned to follow Draenei and Corrupt worlds they visit like a space demon Cop, there are probably some Eredar equal to his power or higher that got task to deal with X world/worlds.

KJ did that on his own. The other higher ups in the Legion considered it a waste of time.

[Aucald]

Kil'Jaden was probably assigned to follow Draenei and Corrupt worlds they visit like a space demon Cop, there are probably some Eredar equal to his power or higher that got task to deal with X world/worlds.

Kil'jaeden has a personal beef with Velen and wants to humiliate and destroy him for refusing Sargeras' "gift" to the Eredar. The rest of the Legion doesn't care overly, and Archimonde thinks that Kil'jaeden's mission to harass the Draenei borders on the obsessive (as per "Rise of the Horde").

[Tenjen]

But you're also way off about his Outland strategy. Outside of a poorly-excuted attempt to drain water from Zangarmarsh and the orcs of HFP, it's not like he was trying rain death and destruction all over Outland. He was holed up in BT and his minions are largely contained in Shadowmoon Valley. From the outside, no one knew exactly what he was up to there except that it looked mighty fishy.

the plan was still to defeat the azeroth forces and march on Shattarath. Acquiring all holdings in outlands and eliminating all opposition.

[Night Wind]

They came from clouds of fractured Light ...after the physical universe was created. They aren't omniscient, nor were they around when Void first came to be. Just because they are made of something doesn't mean they know what came before.


Right so far.


This is where your logic fails. Light's existence didn't create Void. Light's fading created Void. Light existed without the Void for a period of time is a fact. You can't logic your way around this explicit statement.

You keep arguing "Light inevitably leads to Void" (which is true), but for some reason you think that means "Light cannot exist without Void" (which is explicitly false).

The reason the Light began to fade is because it came into existence and began expanding. The Lights existing is the reason the Void exists. Light inevitably leading to Void means that Light can't exist without the Void(following right behind).

[Aquamonkey]

The reason the Light began to fade is because it came into existence and began expanding. The Lights existing is the reason the Void exists. Light inevitably leading to Void means that Light can't exist without the Void.

Except that it did. Void came later. You can't escape from the fact that Light existed without Void.

[Qualia]

the plan was still to defeat the azeroth forces and march on Shattarath. Acquiring all holdings in outlands and eliminating all opposition.

I believe you haven't read "Illidan", yes?

Because that wasn't his plan - at least not anymore after we get to see what happened from Illidan / the DH / Maiev's perspective in "Illidan". The book showed what the events really were. In short, Illidan didn't command the attack on Shattrah, Kael'thas did that on his own. He (Illidan) even helped the army of Alliance and the Horde to escape certain doom at the Dark Portal without us realizing it. The united force of both Ally and Horde would have been crushed there if Illidan & his DH didn't kill Kruul, they just didn't think we need to know that. If he wanted to defeat Azeroth forces and march on Shattrah, he wouldn't have saved us. When we arrived on Outland during TBC, he already started focusing most his attentions on his plan to assault Argus.

Kil'Jaden was probably assigned to follow Draenei and Corrupt worlds they visit like a space demon Cop, there are probably some Eredar equal to his power or higher that got task to deal with X world/worlds.

Other than Sargeras, there isn't any eredar, or demon for that matter, that is equal to KJ / Archimonde in either rank or power. KJ just decided to follow the Draenei because of his personal hatred for Velen, not because he was assigned with it (Archimonde considered that a waste of time). Still, the Legion followed his order because, well, he was the leader (not counting Sargeras / Archimonde).

[Deleted]

Ok, and why is that bad?

The franchise is still extremely popular, so why wouldn't they extend the lore?

What do you propose they do when we run out of Legion bigwigs to confront?

They did the same concept in StarCraft legacy of the void, and people hated it. Now they are going to do it all over again.

[Night Wind]

Except that it did. Void came later. You can't escape from the fact that Light existed without Void.

And you can't escape from the fact that the Light's existance and expansion is what created the Void. The Void came as a result of the Light's existance.

If the Light existing will always create Void, then "the Light can't exist without Void" is still correct because the Void will always exist as a result of the Light.

[Aquamonkey]

And you can't escape from the fact that the Light's existance and expansion is what created the Void. The Void came as a result of the Light's existance.

I never claimed otherwise.

If the Light existing will always create Void, then "the Light can't exist without Void" is still correct because the Void will always exist as a result the Light.

Nope. Again you try to flip the argument to mean something that isn't true. That statement is backwards. The Void couldn't exist without the Light. Light can and did exist without the Void.

You claim that quote means: "That means the Light will always cast a shadow(Void). Which is exactly what happens in Chronicle." Except interpretation of the naaru quote isn't true. The way that quote reads would mean that shadow(Void) always casts Light.

[Night Wind]

I never claimed otherwise.


Nope. That statement is backwards. The Void cannot exist without the Light. Light can and did exist without the Void.

If the Light's existance created the Void. Then the Light can not exist without (creating) the Void.

[Aquamonkey]

If the Light's existance created the Void. Then the Light can not exist without (creating) the Void.

Yes. The parenthetical shouldn't be, as that is a crucial part of making that statement true.

[Night Wind]

I never claimed otherwise.


Nope. Again you try to flip the argument to mean something that isn't true. That statement is backwards. The Void couldn't exist without the Light. Light can and did exist without the Void.

You claim that quote means: "That means the Light will always cast a shadow(Void). Which is exactly what happens in Chronicle." Except interpretation of the naaru quote isn't true. The way that quote reads would mean that shadow(Void) always casts Light.

Not necessarily, it just means that the Light existing will inevitably create the Void.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. The parenthetical shouldn't be, as that is a crucial part of making that statement true.

Well, that is my whole point. We already know the Light existed first. But if the Light's mere existance created the Void, I don't see how "the Light can't exist without the Void" is a problem.

[Deleted]

Just a note here, in real life, isn't shadow/void just the absence of light?

How I see it: Void was there all along, then there was Light, and now we can call the Void "the Void" as we now have something to compare it to. A very simple, "in the beginning, there was nothing, and then there was something."

[dblkion]

Just a note here, in real life, isn't shadow/void just the absence of light?

Void and "shadow" are nothing alike, a void is the absence of atmosphere, of matter in an area.

Total darkness is the absence of light

[Deleted]

I might have misphrased that. It was meant in the vein of "we call darkness "darkness" because there is no light". Oh well, well done me, spouting nonsense.

[Aquamonkey]

Not necessarily, it just means that the Light existing will inevitably create the Void.

Only because Light will inevitably stop existing in some places.

Well, that is my whole point. We already know the Light existed first. But if the Light's mere existance created the Void, I don't see how "the Light can't exist without the Void" is a problem.

Light's mere existence didn't create the Void though. Light existing in a place doesn't create Void, it's just full of Light and Light continues alone. The absence of Light's existence in a place where it previously existed is what allowed Void to coalesce.

Nothing is nothing, without anything. Light comes into a piece of that nothing and fills it (unlocking a slot for stuff). Light leaves and now that spot has an empty slot for energy, which the Void then fills. If Light didn't leave that slot, the new Void energy wouldn't be able to form.

It's like if I build a house and live in it. Then I move to another house and a bum squats in my old house.

[Qualia]

Well, that is my whole point. We already know the Light existed first. But if the Light's mere existance created the Void, I don't see how "the Light can't exist without the Void" is a problem.

It is a problem because it isn't entirely true. If "The light can't exist without the Void" is true, it'd mean that there isn't any moment that there was only Light - which isn't true according to Chronicle.

In fact, technically, even "The light can't exist without creating the Void" statement isn't true either, because it'd means there isn't any moment that the Light existed without creating the Void. However, the Light only created the Void when it expanded. There would be at least a very tiny moment when the Light just came to existence, and before it started expanding, that there was only Light and no Void.

In the bigger picture, it doesn't matter much, though, as I doubt we'd ever figure out a way to remove one force or another. Thus, the Light & the Void will always exist together. Just wanting to make sure everything are correct.

How I see it: Void was there all along, then there was Light, and now we can call the Void "the Void" as we now have something to compare it to. A very simple, "in the beginning, there was nothing, and then there was something."

The void definition in WoW is a bit weird (in my opinion). From my experience, void usually means emptiness / nothingness. However, void in WoW, according to Chronicle, is just Shadow / Darkness.

[Aquamonkey]

In the bigger picture, it doesn't matter much, though, as I doubt we'd ever figure out a way to remove one force or another. Thus, the Light & the Void will always exist together.

Especially in the physical universe and Twisting Nether which were created by the clashing of Light and Void.

This is the basis of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, but the details of what their beliefs entailed have been somewhat retconned. In the WoW Magazine, Shadow was the physical reality which needed balance between dark and Light energies.

After the First War, a bishop from Lordaeron began to delve into workings of the orc necrolytes who had poured through the Dark Portal and desecrated their hallowed dead. While at first this was done in order to provide Azeroth with the knowledge it needed to fight against such dark magic, the bishop's studies over the years became increasingly obsessed with finding out why such dark energies existed at all, and why she began to see the ebb and flow of such energies in the world around her. She began preaching about the necessity of balance between dark and light, but after her death, her books were locked away in the Kirin Tor's vaults in Dalaran.
[...]
While many priests draw on powers such as the Holy Light of the goddess Elune, shadow priests turn to dark energies to accomplish their goals.
The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a group considered heretical by most, believes that dark energy practitioners are just as vital to the survival of life and reality (which they call "the Shadow") as wielders of the Light. The cult preaches balance, mandating that shadow priests must never forget the dangers of falling too deep into the dark energies they manipulate, for it is often too hard to find one's way bak to the Shadow from the deep reaches of the darkness.
--Wow Magazine Issue 4

[Night Wind]

Only because Light will inevitably stop existing in some places.


Light's mere existence didn't create the Void though. Light existing in a place doesn't create Void, it's just full of Light and Light continues alone. The absence of Light's existence in a place where it previously existed is what allowed Void to coalesce.

Nothing is nothing, without anything. Light comes into a piece of that nothing and fills it (unlocking a slot for stuff). Light leaves and now that spot has an empty slot for energy, which the Void then fills. If Light didn't leave that slot, the new Void energy wouldn't be able to form.

It's like if I build a house and live in it. Then I move to another house and a bum squats in my old house.

Light's existance is what "built the houses" for the Void to live in.

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It is a problem because it isn't entirely true. If "The light can't exist without the Void" is true, it'd mean that there isn't any moment that there was only Light - which isn't true according to Chronicle.

In fact, technically, even "The light can't exist without creating the Void" statement isn't true either, because it'd means there isn't any moment that the Light existed without creating the Void. However, the Light only created the Void when it expanded. There would be at least a very tiny moment when the Light just came to existence, and before it started expanding, that there was only Light and no Void.

In the bigger picture, it doesn't matter much, though, as I doubt we'd ever figure out a way to remove one force or another. Thus, the Light & the Void will always exist together. Just wanting to make sure everything are correct.


The void definition in WoW is a bit weird (in my opinion). From my experience, void usually means emptiness / nothingness. However, void in WoW, according to Chronicle, is just Shadow / Darkness.

We don't have the timeframe for the moment the Light comes into existence and expands to the moment the Void is formed. If it's supposed to be like the big bang and the Light travels at Light speed, then the creation of the Void would be literally on the heels of the Light expanding which would happen within seconds.

[Aquamonkey]

Light's existance is what "built the houses" for the Void to live in.

Yes, but Void couldn't form without Light leaving the spot vacant.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't have the timeframe for the moment the Light comes into existence and expands to the moment the Void is formed. If it's supposed to be like the big bang and the Light travels at Light speed, then the creation of the Void would be literally on the heels of the Light expanding which would happen within seconds.

That's still a period of time. Void was new after Light was already a thing. They weren't simultaneous.

Unfettered by the confines of time and space, the Light swelled across all existence in the form of a boundless prismatic sea. Great torrents of living energy flitted through its mirrored depths, their movements conjuring a symphony of joy and hope.
The ocean of Light was dynamic and ever shifting. Yet as it expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From the absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.
This power was the Void...
--Chronicle

And it wasn't like the Big Bang, that is what happened when Light and Void clashed to make the physical universe.