[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[redfella]

Immolation Aura isn't any better at picking up adds then Keg Smash is.(in fact, arguably worse with a longer CD and having to be in range vs the 25 yard range on keg smash) I don't think you even played a DH because the add pickup tool is glaive toss, not immolation aura.

I actually prefer abilities like Immolation Aura, since you can activate it and then move to pick up adds during it's duration. It's easy to toss out Glaives for any mobs that are way further than the initial pack you jumped on. Imho IA > Keg Smash for add pickups. It feels like such a waste to toss Keg Smash to a lone caster when you might hit more mobs right in front of you.

It's nice that we can talent into RJW to have best of both worlds, but I still miss abilities like CE or Glaive on my monk for ranged threat (say a caster that noone is bothering to interrupt).

[Hobbs]

A few features that makes adds easier for DH that I think people are missing is the leap and the sigils. That leap and damage makes picking up adds quite easy. And if you can't move and go to them the sigils plus glaive makes it trivial.

I do think the other tanks have a slightly easier time picking up adds, especially with baseline tools. I really don't think it's a huge issue though. Smart use of KS, BoF, tab targeting, rolling to mobs, and RJW or statue if talented are plenty. Additionally, our taunt is actually better than the rest for picking up adds since it makes the add get to us in melee faster.

[PinDrop]

Does the Brewmaster Monk have a hidden artifact ability?

5% chance on the consumption of any brew to become tipsy.

I kid, I kid, we don't know yet. But I'll bet it's something like this, haha.

[madmossy]

snip

Unless it's a caster then we still gotta hoof it to interrupt them in melee range

[Tech614]

I actually prefer abilities like Immolation Aura, since you can activate it and then move to pick up adds during it's duration. It's easy to toss out Glaives for any mobs that are way further than the initial pack you jumped on. Imho IA > Keg Smash for add pickups. It feels like such a waste to toss Keg Smash to a lone caster when you might hit more mobs right in front of you.

It's nice that we can talent into RJW to have best of both worlds, but I still miss abilities like CE or Glaive on my monk for ranged threat (say a caster that noone is bothering to interrupt).

Ranged pickup I would def not say Brewmaster is the best. I like Vengeance and Blood in that regard. General purpose add pickups though? Brewmaster is very strong.

Immolation Aura is not as strong at general AOE pickup as Keg Smash IMO because the vast majority of it's threat is baked into the initial burst and you have 12ish seconds to wait on that to go off again. The pulse aoe afterwards like RJW is pretty pitiful and not going to take threat off dps going ham on aoe, so you would still need glaive toss and soul cleaves to establish secure aoe threat.

[Hobbs]

Unless it's a caster then we still gotta hoof it to interrupt them in melee range

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't DK's and pallies the only ones who can interrupt from range? Sans sigil of silence which is a minute cd. Oh and to be fair, I did have "rolling to mobs" in my list.

And in a dungeon casters might be annoying, but in a raid stuff like that's gonna be handled by misdirect and ranged interrupts or dps interrupting and us taunting.

[Juliansfist]

I personally find SD unreliable and whilst it can provide better results than RJW it often underperformed.

I do wish RJW was improved though it makes me sad that one of the best aspects of 5.4 monk has been weak for the 2 following expansions now.

Has anyone else found Niuzao to be pathetic as well? Our stamping ox does barely any damage.

[Teekey]

Define 'better'.

I wouldn't want to be any other tank class right now.

General consensus seems to be that Brewmasters are, at best, middle of the pack for tanks.

Additionally, the perception from the WoW community - right or wrong - is that Brewmasters are not good.

Lastly, and while this is true for a lot of classes with the 7.0 changes...there hasn't been a very warm reception to the changes for a portion of the BrM playerbase.


I think Brewmasters will be in an okay position overall (although I don't find the current playstyle very gratifying at all), but I think all the above are valid concerns and shouldn't just be written off.

[stross01]

General consensus seems to be that Brewmasters are, at best, middle of the pack for tanks.

Additionally, the perception from the WoW community - right or wrong - is that Brewmasters are not good.

Lastly, and while this is true for a lot of classes with the 7.0 changes...there hasn't been a very warm reception to the changes for a portion of the BrM playerbase.


I think Brewmasters will be in an okay position overall (although I don't find the current playstyle very gratifying at all), but I think all the above are valid concerns and shouldn't just be written off.

'General consensus' where? Here? Every thread in every forum for every class and every spec are saying that 'we're shit' and 'we're the worst, x is better'.

Nobody likes any of their changes. Nobody likes change. Almost everyone here is a bandwagon idiot.

Out of the specs I've played to 850, I'm not sure I ever experience 'gratification'. Half of the tank specs have 1.5 second globals which gives you plenty of time to tab out to Hearthstone, the most 'gratifying' privilege about the specs.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally find SD unreliable and whilst it can provide better results than RJW it often underperformed.

I do wish RJW was improved though it makes me sad that one of the best aspects of 5.4 monk has been weak for the 2 following expansions now.

Has anyone else found Niuzao to be pathetic as well? Our stamping ox does barely any damage.

Have yet to see a situation where I'd ever want to use it. It's lower single target than RJW and SD, it's lower AOE than RJW and SD, and I would never want it to taunt a boss for 1-2 melee attacks if it even could.

[gdorneles]

'General consensus' where? Here? Every thread in every forum for every class and every spec are saying that 'we're shit' and 'we're the worst, x is better'.

Nobody likes any of their changes. Nobody likes change. Almost everyone here is a bandwagon idiot.

Out of the specs I've played to 850, I'm not sure I ever experience 'gratification'. Half of the tank specs have 1.5 second globals which gives you plenty of time to tab out to Hearthstone, the most 'gratifying' privilege about the specs.

I think there's a general consensus that the brewmaster is the worst tank right know, Slootbag and Sco said on their streams that is viable, but it's not near as powerful as the other tanks, lacking utility also, i think they're pretty reliable sources on this matter.
It works, it does what's meant to do, and that's it.
That said i think that the brewmaster is the most fun tank right now, and i'll be maining one for Emerald Nightmare progression.
You won't see a single top-end guild using them though.

[stross01]

I think there's a general consensus that the brewmaster is the worst tank right know, Slootbag and Sco said on their streams that is viable, but it's not near as powerful as the other tanks, lacking utility also, i think they're pretty reliable sources on this matter.
It works, it does what's meant to do, and that's it.
That said i think that the brewmaster is the most fun tank right now, and i'll be maining one for Emerald Nightmare progression.
You won't see a single top-end guild using them though.

Last stream I watched of Slootbag, he said all tanks are good.

More importantly, I don't give a shit what either one has to say about it; I don't think they're reliable sources. If a tank is unusable for cutting edge progression, guess what will happen? Just guess.

[gdorneles]

Last stream I watched of Slootbag, he said all tanks are good.

More importantly, I don't give a shit what either one has to say about it; I don't think they're reliable sources. If a tank is unusable for cutting edge progression, guess what will happen? Just guess.

Yes bro, i'm waiting for the buff but it all seems that for now they're not going to do anything about it.
Slootbag often says that the brewmaster is pretty bad compared to other tanks, but it's an okay tank that works. (Note that slootbag doesn't enjoy playing the BrM so what he's saying might be a little opinion-based).
But i'm going to main it nonetheless, Legion is not even out yet, there's three weeks until EN, let's see what happens.

[Ray3andrei]

Yes bro, i'm waiting for the buff but it all seems that for now they're not going to do anything about it.
Slootbag often says that the brewmaster is pretty bad compared to other tanks, but it's an okay tank that works. (Note that slootbag doesn't enjoy playing the BrM so what he's saying might be a little opinion-based).
But i'm going to main it nonetheless, Legion is not even out yet, there's three weeks until EN, let's see what happens.

There won't be a buff, we don't actually need it.

[Hobbs]

Last stream I watched of Slootbag, he said all tanks are good.

More importantly, I don't give a shit what either one has to say about it; I don't think they're reliable sources. If a tank is unusable for cutting edge progression, guess what will happen? Just guess.

I'm not disagreeing with you that brewmasters are good (although I do disagree that they're the best), but I'm just curious. If a couple of the best tanks in the world aren't reliable sources to determine tank strength, then who is?

[stross01]

I'm not disagreeing with you that brewmasters are good (although I do disagree that they're the best), but I'm just curious. If a couple of the best tanks in the world aren't reliable sources to determine tank strength, then who is?

There is no 'best tank'. The idea that there is one is just stupid.

They're tanks in two top guilds, not the top tanks to ever exist. They don't have 1% of the tanking knowledge that a Blizzard development team does.

[Hobbs]

There is no 'best tank'. The idea that there is one is just stupid.

They're tanks in two top guilds, not the top tanks to ever exist. They don't have 1% of the tanking knowledge that a Blizzard development team does.

It's not stupid. In a game of math, some things are always better than others.

Nobody said they were the best two tanks ever. That's just a straw man. And nobody said they had more knowledge than a full blizzard dev team. That's just another straw man and an ad hominem to boot. Just because a dev team might have a better and more complete picture doesn't mean those highly skilled tanks like sloot and sco aren't reliable sources. You don't have to be the best or the smartest to be a good source. There are tons of amazing publications in every field of study that aren't produced by the leading scholar in their respective fields.

Of course no one should take their word as gospel. But to say they can't be helpful is just silly and antagonistic. If you don't wanna take the doc's advice, that's your right. But it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[stross01]

It's not stupid. In a game of math, some things are always better than others.

Nobody said they were the best two tanks ever. That's just a straw man. And nobody said they had more knowledge than a full blizzard dev team. That's just another straw man and an ad hominem to boot. Just because a dev team might have a better and more complete picture doesn't mean those highly skilled tanks like sloot and sco aren't reliable sources. You don't have to be the best or the smartest to be a good source. There are tons of amazing publications in every field of study that aren't produced by the leading scholar in their respective fields.

Of course no one should take their word as gospel. But to say they can't be helpful is just silly and antagonistic. If you don't wanna take the doc's advice, that's your right. But it doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

In a game of math, where nobody pays attention to anything other than Patchwerk data, sure. Good thing there has never been a Patchwerk fight in the game. Even Patchwerk wasn't a Patchwerk fight.

People need to realize that Slootbag isn't a super human player. I've watched a lot of his streams and lo and behold, he's definitely not the best player I've ever seen. He just plays a lot. A lot, a lot. Also, I was talking about the best tank classwise, not personwise.

When people start using terms like "hyperbole", "straw man", "ad hominem", and the like pseudo-intellectual bullshit, you can generally disregard anything they say from that point on. Please stop.

[redfella]

If a tank is unusable for cutting edge progression, guess what will happen? Just guess.

The exact same thing that happened to us last expansion, a knee-jerk reaction from Blizzard overtuning something that the community felt was undertuned to such extent it showed up in player numbers.

More importantly, I don't give a shit what either one has to say about it; I don't think they're reliable sources.

Slootbags input about tank balance is about as valuable as anyone's that has had time to sit on beta for countless hours testing stuff out. His input is still mostly based on how the classes feel and not math (he's even stated this multiple times). I've never seen him publish any actual theorycrafting apart from saying how I feel stuff works after extensive play.

That said, I tend to disagree with Slootbags opinions more often than not, but I still think any feedback with some reasoning is valuable and can open people listening it to new paths of reasoning.

There is no 'best tank'. The idea that there is one is just stupid.

In a game of math, where nobody pays attention to anything other than Patchwerk data, sure. Good thing there has never been a Patchwerk fight in the game. Even Patchwerk wasn't a Patchwerk fight.

I really don't know a single person here who is basing their opinions on Patchwerk data, I mean there are people who believe Noxxic is a good source of information and that sims are gospel, but that kind of people rarely venture as far as actual forum threads.

That said, a "best tank" always exists -- even mathwise -- but mathing that out completely and without errors would probably take more time than playing through the content at hand. At some point you stop using numbers as the basis and go with the conclusions you can draw from what you have crunched, and that's when you end up with a rudimentary list of which spec is better than the others for certain scenarios. Then the tank that that ticks most marks for most scenarios is for all intents and purposes considered the best, until new scenarios arise or class balance is tuned.

What people seem to not understand is that the above is still opinion driven since you are drawing conclusions and as such are rating certain class mechanics above others based on how you value them.

TL;DR; What people on forums call the "best tank" is part numbers, part subjective and as a whole at best a guiding factor for themselves and others. Some people want to share their opinions to re-affirm themselves, some so others could pick their logic apart and help them get better at the process, and some just want to jump on a bandwagon and repeat what someone else said so that they could appear knowledgeable.

When people start using terms like "hyperbole", "straw man", "ad hominem", and the like pseudo-intellectual bullshit, you can generally disregard anything they say from that point on. Please stop.

Not surprising he feels you are using logical fallacies (which aren't pseudo-intellectual bullshit), when you are drawing points from his posts he never actually made.

[Ultramad]

We didn't need a buff going into highmaul either but we got one. What ended up making that buff happen was the insane amount of screaming on the forums. Normal players, aka not mythic raiders, couldn't complete heroic dungeons with the class. With the system we have now, which has an even higher skill floor than WoD, I'm nearly guaranteeing we see the same reaction en masse to the class in a heroic dungeon/mythic dungeon setting. Meanwhile I was running heroics and challenge modes without any kind of issue on my brewmaster before the buffs.

Whether this gets BrMs a buff or not I can't say. We don't need a buff, but I'm sure the normal average player might to get through a dungeon with average players.

[Deleted]

I'd like an animation update for Rushing Jade wind (or a glyph if it is made baseline) to turn it into a "Brewstorm" with the gfx of Alemental brew whirlwinds with some kegs spinning in it much like bonestorm. I can dream!