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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    First off, as marinos pointed out, I was talking about Divine Tempest, not Divine Storm. Our third major trait.
    Fair enough, you won't see that for a few weeks though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Secondly, there's a lot of differences between Exsang and Crusade. Regardless, using a 2 min CD at a particular time doesn't have to be a huge loss in dps. Depends on how you setup your CD rotation, (assuming we're still talking about priority add waves) and what your expected fight length is. Now that we're not basing everything on the goddamn legendary ring, we're back to the good ole days where delaying a CD wasn't a dps loss at all so long as you didn't lose a full use of it in the process Like, on a 5 minute fight you could afford a total delay of Crusade of 30 seconds without losing any dps. In fact you might gain dps if you use that time to line the second and/or third Crusade up with trinket procs, or if you pool for a huge add wave so you can get some big dick divine storms.
    Sadly those priority adds rarely allow for only 30sec delay though, and if you want to time AW and Crusade at the same time it has even more of an impact. You're missing the point though, our lack of something like exsanguinate that provide pure on-demand burst as well as any other way to excel is the problem.

    I don't care if we do mediocre AOE, I don't care if we do mediocre ST, I don't care if we have no burst but instead smooth reliable DPS...just not all at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Third, I'm 99% sure every 2 minute CD in the game sucks balls compared to Crusade. Like, have you actually played with that fucker once you get some gear at 110?
    Yet our DPS is on the lower end of the spectrum, you're totally missing the point here. It's not about how it plays, it's about the lack of niche while doing mediocre DPS. Either you deal high sustained DPS with no real tricks or you deal reasonable DPS but have a niche where you shine. Blizz gave us neither which means any RL with some sense and ambition will bring that extra rogue or mage...probably mage as melee is crowded anyway now.

  2. #62
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Have you read this forum at all? Half the complaints are about utility and how the spec plays now, not the numbers. Ret has garbage utility combined with mediocre damage, there is no reason to bring a Ret to a raid. If you need a paladin you're going to bring a holy or prot, because they actually have utility.
    Can i ask what utility the paladin hasnt got compared to a monk or dk or warrior... currently trying to pick a main for legion. Ive had a blast on every class. Apart from priest.
    In my eyes paladin has a lot of utility with the hand spells BoP for example and are a very survivable melee dps. It may just be me. It feels like rets bring a lot more to a party than most melee dps. I guess numbers can be tuned somewhat. I cant see blizz letting paladins have shite dps when monks are pretty much a similar class (as in they can fill 3 roles).
    Hope this makes some sense..
    Wikidsik

  3. #63
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I swear it hits shit out further than 20 yards. Like, the point of origin shoots out 20 yards, but the hitbox is fucking huge so it gets at least an extra 5 yards off that.

    It hits stuff 28y out, its common sense. It goes out 20y, but it has 8y radius, so mob 28y away from you will be hit (and that is terrible already, would be better if it didnt travel at all). Probably worst major trait of every class and spec in the game. Even worse than echo, as echo is just dmg boost... this is dmg boost + makes it worse due to possibility of pulling more stuff, so have to pay attention.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by genai View Post
    It hits stuff 28y out, its common sense. It goes out 20y, but it has 8y radius, so mob 28y away from you will be hit (and that is terrible already, would be better if it didnt travel at all). Probably worst major trait of every class and spec in the game. Even worse than echo, as echo is just dmg boost... this is dmg boost + makes it worse due to possibility of pulling more stuff, so have to pay attention.
    But, just, don't be bad and it's fine... And Echo is a fantastic major compared to a lot of ones that other classes get. Hell, even within our own class there's Light of the Titans, and that thing is truly ass.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by MegaAverageGamers View Post
    Can i ask what utility the paladin hasnt got compared to a monk or dk or warrior... currently trying to pick a main for legion. Ive had a blast on every class. Apart from priest.
    In my eyes paladin has a lot of utility with the hand spells BoP for example and are a very survivable melee dps. It may just be me. It feels like rets bring a lot more to a party than most melee dps. I guess numbers can be tuned somewhat. I cant see blizz letting paladins have shite dps when monks are pretty much a similar class (as in they can fill 3 roles).
    Hope this makes some sense..
    Wikidsik
    When people say poor utility, they are most likely talking about greater blessings. How they are and how they work is annoying and could be way better.

    Overall, LoH and BoP are better utility than what most melee dps can offer.

    For example:
    Ret paladin: BoP and LoH
    Survival Hunter: Nothing
    Enhancement shaman: Nothing (wind walk totem will never be taken over feral lunge)
    Fury/arms: Commanding shout (there's already a better version out there. A 3m CD that increases the health of anyone within 30 yards by 15% for 10s is meh at best)
    Frost DK:1 DeathGrip which is trash compared to the double grip unholy has or the mass aoe grip blood has.

    So, compared to most melee specs our utility is good. At least BoP and LoH, even if they are provided by holy/Prot are still both really good. WW monk, Havoc DH, and Unholy DK have better utility than ret.

    Saying ret has no utility is just a BS argument. Most of the other melee have been gutted in terms of utility. Greater blessings is trash, yeah, but everything else is wanted even if other specs provide it. BoP is useful on every and any encounter, having two or three is perfectly fine as long as ret provides good damage as well.

    Is this enough utility to warrant doing lower DPS? Absolutely not. Is it good utility? Yes, but not worth doing less dps for. I have no idea if that's the intention though.

    Still, keep in mind that when you decide which melee to put on your roster you always look at what their potential is on every fight before you look at what utility they bring. So even if we do bring good utility, if we don't bring good dos it won't really matter.

    TLDR: Yes, ret has utility. Yes, our utility is useful. Saying ret has no utility is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Compared to most melee specs we offer better utility, but that won't really matter if we don't offer good dps as well. Or at least decent. The utility we have isn't enough to warrant lower dps, but I don't think that's the intention or the case, having good utility was suppose to offset the meh mobility, it had nothing to do with dps. Also, when I say utility, I'm not including Greater blessings because they're trash.
    Last edited by Taeldorian; 2016-08-28 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Added TLDR

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    Fair enough, you won't see that for a few weeks though.



    Sadly those priority adds rarely allow for only 30sec delay though, and if you want to time AW and Crusade at the same time it has even more of an impact. You're missing the point though, our lack of something like exsanguinate that provide pure on-demand burst as well as any other way to excel is the problem.

    I don't care if we do mediocre AOE, I don't care if we do mediocre ST, I don't care if we have no burst but instead smooth reliable DPS...just not all at once.



    Yet our DPS is on the lower end of the spectrum, you're totally missing the point here. It's not about how it plays, it's about the lack of niche while doing mediocre DPS. Either you deal high sustained DPS with no real tricks or you deal reasonable DPS but have a niche where you shine. Blizz gave us neither which means any RL with some sense and ambition will bring that extra rogue or mage...probably mage as melee is crowded anyway now.
    Well as I keep saying, I see no evidence that ret's dps is on the "lower end of the spectrum" also, as I've mentioned a couple times now, I think our niche is going to be spread AoE/cleave. Kind of like MM hunters, except not as good because who the fuck thought Sidewinders was balanced? I mean, concerning our dps, if you know something I don't, I'd love to hear it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Well as I keep saying, I see no evidence that ret's dps is on the "lower end of the spectrum" also, as I've mentioned a couple times now, I think our niche is going to be spread AoE/cleave. Kind of like MM hunters, except not as good because who the fuck thought Sidewinders was balanced? I mean, concerning our dps, if you know something I don't, I'd love to hear it.
    Pretty much every log I seen have had ret at the mid to low end on the DPS by a wide margin to the top. As for spread AOE cleave...that sounds useful in more than one fight per tier. /s

  8. #68
    The gist of what I read in this thread is that it's really not that bad making Ret sub par because being good at your role doesn't matter outside of Mythic content. The question I ask is, why should Ret be sub par? This is a spec that has historically ranged from bottom of the heap at worst and middle of the pack at best. Other specs are middle of the pack at worst and the cream of the crop at best.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    The gist of what I read in this thread is that it's really not that bad making Ret sub par because being good at your role doesn't matter outside of Mythic content. The question I ask is, why should Ret be sub par? This is a spec that has historically ranged from bottom of the heap at worst and middle of the pack at best. Other specs are middle of the pack at worst and the cream of the crop at best.
    Theres really no reason for it to be sub par currently. Some people might try and say its because of our utility but giving us utility was to offset the low mobility we received, it had nothing to do with dps. Obviously it turned out that the utility they gave us (greater blessings} is absolute shit aside from Might and even then it could have been a lot better, but still.

    Theres no answer to that question. Theres no reason for ret to be sub par. Doesnt have outstanding mobility, doesnt have outstanding utility, doesnt have outstanding offheals. Theres really nothing ret has that is a worthy trade off for lower damage. I have no idea if ret is even suppose to be bottom of the barrel, ret could see buffs in the next few weeks. Or not. I dont really know what Blizzards plan is and nobody can tell you what it is either honestly.

    Disclaimer because someone asked earlier-I do main holy but with ret as my offspec (and I have been ret for the last few raid tests} I like to discuss it and stay updated.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
    I haven't really been following ret, but I'm confused by lack of utility thing, I thought Ret had all those unique blessings now?

    Are those not useful?
    Think about it this way. Unless the blessings does 40% of rets dps. Why would you bring one and not an outlaw rogue doing 40% more dps?
    The rogue can even cheese mechanic like ret can and is more survivable in raids and easier to heal compared to other melees. Ret utility is pointless, its covered by Prot paladin and Holy paladin.
    Last edited by minteK917; 2016-08-28 at 04:59 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    Pretty much every log I seen have had ret at the mid to low end on the DPS by a wide margin to the top. As for spread AOE cleave...that sounds useful in more than one fight per tier. /s
    Can you show me some of these logs? I ask because I literally spent a whole afternoon looking through Ursoc logs, checked over 100 of them, because I figured if there's any fight where people would play somewhat optimally it's Bear Butcher, and not a single ret that I found passed the talents/trinkets/potion test. I'd fucking kill to get a look at Serenity's logs, but alas they're private.

    Also, I already have uses for Divine Tempest planned out for Il'gynoth, Cenarius and Xavius. I haven't looked at Nighthold fights yet because I don't see too much of a point. I really need to review Dragons of Nightmare and Renferal with my newfound experience in mind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    The gist of what I read in this thread is that it's really not that bad making Ret sub par because being good at your role doesn't matter outside of Mythic content. The question I ask is, why should Ret be sub par? This is a spec that has historically ranged from bottom of the heap at worst and middle of the pack at best. Other specs are middle of the pack at worst and the cream of the crop at best.
    I don't think ret should be sub par. I'm also not convinced it is though.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Can you show me some of these logs? I ask because I literally spent a whole afternoon looking through Ursoc logs, checked over 100 of them, because I figured if there's any fight where people would play somewhat optimally it's Bear Butcher, and not a single ret that I found passed the talents/trinkets/potion test. I'd fucking kill to get a look at Serenity's logs, but alas they're private.

    Also, I already have uses for Divine Tempest planned out for Il'gynoth, Cenarius and Xavius. I haven't looked at Nighthold fights yet because I don't see too much of a point. I really need to review Dragons of Nightmare and Renferal with my newfound experience in mind.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I dont think Serenity has a ret paladin. Unless Solsacra is in Serenity, but I thought he was in Midwinter. Im not even sure anymore, hard to keep up because all the guilds have changed, merged, or people have just stopped raiding world first. Either way though, I know Serenity has a prot paladin and a holy paladin (Was Aladya, I think its Berrick now, no idea though since they havent released their roster either}, not sure about ret though.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    I dont think Serenity has a ret paladin. Unless Solsacra is in Serenity, but I thought he was in Midwinter. Im not even sure anymore, hard to keep up because all the guilds have changed, merged, or people have just stopped raiding world first. Either way though, I know Serenity has a prot paladin and a holy paladin (Was Aladya, I think its Berrick now, no idea though since they havent released their roster either}, not sure about ret though.
    I don't think they have a dedicated ret paladin. Really I don't think Serenity has a dedicated anything tbh. They did have someone play ret in some of their tests though, and all Slootbag will say about it, (he gets asked about 20 times a day on his stream) is that ret did not perform as well as some other classes/specs in their raid testing. He, obviously, refuses to say what caused them to deem ret as "not performing as well" and he won't get into specifics, nor would he even have the knowledge of how ret works to get into specifics even if he was allowed to.

  14. #74
    Deleted
    For mythic level guilds i think ret paladin is in a bad bad spot, unless you are a very old in the guild and dedicated to the group for years and they let you play if you are very skilled. But even then, you WILL be middle of the pack towards the bottom. There are much better options for melee dps being in numers and in utility.

    AOE is abysmal bad. It's even ackward to the point of it seeming you are PUNISHED for using it since the golden trait makes it travel 28 yards making it very dangerous to use in some situations.

    Single target is OKish numbers, but has mechanical flaws that make you scratch your head like the whole judgement mechanic obsolete when you reach 25% haste since it's CD will be nearly the same as the uptime, making the whole mechanic a nuisance (debuffs targets and is not a buff on yourself, so target changing is a new problem) rather than an interesing playstyle.

    It all boils down to every 30seconds you make sure to not overcap your holy power due to ashbringer giving you 5 holy power, and if you want things more RNG pick divine purpose + Justicar's vengeance combo.


    I believe that at least our AOE damage should be buffed. I'm already resignated to the fact that our single target dps will be middle of the pack and that's OK, but our AOE is so bad that i just cringe everytime i see a trash pack. Every trash pack i encounter i just want to hide and say in chat i was AFK due to my child crying or something.

    It's bad, it's too bad to be true. It's useless. No one wants to play a class that is utter useless in some aspect of the game.

    AOE is very important in mythic+ dungeons. We have none. We cry.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Can you show me some of these logs? I ask because I literally spent a whole afternoon looking through Ursoc logs, checked over 100 of them, because I figured if there's any fight where people would play somewhat optimally it's Bear Butcher, and not a single ret that I found passed the talents/trinkets/potion test. I'd fucking kill to get a look at Serenity's logs, but alas they're private.
    I really can't point you to specific logs, it's a mix of links over time and just random logs on worldoflogs iirc, I never did any deep analysis to check i-lvl, pre pot and so on as it would take way too much time and overall it kinda evens out unless every ret is shit in those tests while every other class is played well.

    You would think at least the occasional log would have a ret in the top5 if it was competitive, from what I recall I saw most other classes in top 5 at some point.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by knightpt View Post
    For mythic level guilds i think ret paladin is in a bad bad spot, unless you are a very old in the guild and dedicated to the group for years and they let you play if you are very skilled. But even then, you WILL be middle of the pack towards the bottom. There are much better options for melee dps being in numers and in utility.

    AOE is abysmal bad. It's even ackward to the point of it seeming you are PUNISHED for using it since the golden trait makes it travel 28 yards making it very dangerous to use in some situations.

    Single target is OKish numbers, but has mechanical flaws that make you scratch your head like the whole judgement mechanic obsolete when you reach 25% haste since it's CD will be nearly the same as the uptime, making the whole mechanic a nuisance (debuffs targets and is not a buff on yourself, so target changing is a new problem) rather than an interesing playstyle.

    It all boils down to every 30seconds you make sure to not overcap your holy power due to ashbringer giving you 5 holy power, and if you want things more RNG pick divine purpose + Justicar's vengeance combo.


    I believe that at least our AOE damage should be buffed. I'm already resignated to the fact that our single target dps will be middle of the pack and that's OK, but our AOE is so bad that i just cringe everytime i see a trash pack. Every trash pack i encounter i just want to hide and say in chat i was AFK due to my child crying or something.

    It's bad, it's too bad to be true. It's useless. No one wants to play a class that is utter useless in some aspect of the game.

    AOE is very important in mythic+ dungeons. We have none. We cry.
    Once again, I just don't see this as being true in general. Do I have to come back with like 5 more screenshots of me sustaining over a million dps on trash? Because I will do that and totally ruin my morning instead of pushing up to New Game+6 in Dark Souls 3 in preparation for the DLC, like I had planned. Maybe I should just start fucking streaming again...

    Anywho, to address some specific points: Divine Tempest is not a burden to anyone that doesn't suck. The extra line effect on Divine Storm is one of the best things the spec has going for it concerning having some kind of niche, and I honestly find it hard to believe that you're complaining about that. I've never pulled anything extra with it, and I hope they don't nerf its range because of the whining of people that are too incompetent to use it correctly.

    I'll say once again, stop going DP, it's bad. At this point I think I would legitimately take fucking Holy Wrath over that garbage talent. I've played with all 3 at 110, and nothing is close to Crusade in a realistic situation. At least Holy Wrath is meme worthy. I've actually pulled aggro with some 4mil+ hits on single target. Real talk, Holy Wrath is kind of fun, and I kind of hate myself for liking it. Literally an excuse to stand in fire. Nothing quite like killing a 4 mob pack in one hit. ^_^ Anywho, stop using not Crusade, everything else is bad.

    Our AoE is actually pretty decent. I mean, idk how you could think our AoE is bad but our single target is okay... Divine Storm is a dps increase on 2 targets once you have a rank 29 artifact. Wake of Ashes is an AoE ability that's so strong we use it on single target. I just... It seems self evident to me, as our AoE is an extension of our single target.

    As for your point about "mythic level guilds" I don't think that's true on several levels. First off, there's a huge difference between a top 3 guild, a top 200 guild, and a guild like mine that killed mythic Archimonde like 5 weeks before 7.0. Secondly, as I've been going on about ad nauseum, I'm not convinced that ret is bad at all, especially with the nerfs to rogue and most legendaries getting gutted while ours remained the same. I'm a show me the evidence kind of person. I don't just believe what people tell me without those people having some kind of credibility with me, and I simply see no evidence that I have high confidence in that ret is bad, at all. I know that idea is triggering to some people around here, but fuck, I would think if ret was so abysmal that these results would be reproducible at 110. Like, if you can show me a log of a ret being played well at 110, and being middle-bottom, even behind classes that have not been recently nerfed, then I'll concede that there's a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    I really can't point you to specific logs, it's a mix of links over time and just random logs on worldoflogs iirc, I never did any deep analysis to check i-lvl, pre pot and so on as it would take way too much time and overall it kinda evens out unless every ret is shit in those tests while every other class is played well.

    You would think at least the occasional log would have a ret in the top5 if it was competitive, from what I recall I saw most other classes in top 5 at some point.
    Fair enough, though I did see ret in the top 5 sometimes in the logs I looked at. Though every ret was being played like shit, every single one of them.

    Kind of begs the question though, why is every ret being played like shit when other classes are a lot more uniform in their damage breakdowns? Well, if everything else I've said around here has made me popular, I'm sure this will go over splendidly. It's the fault of people on this forum, and people with similar opinions that post on the official forums. People see that the ret feedback thread is 3x the size of the other threads, and they read the thread and similar threads on this site, and they see gems like, "lolret" "ret is a meme" "ret is the worst spec in the game" "For mythic level guilds i think ret paladin is in a bad bad spot, unless you are a very old in the guild and dedicated to the group for years and they let you play if you are very skilled. But even then, you WILL be middle of the pack towards the bottom" "just reroll" and they actually do fucking reroll.

    There are a lot of mythic raiders that play this game that are more or less okay at pushing their buttons that are clueless concerning the theoretical side of things. Is it any wonder that these people have mass rerolled away from the spec due to the 24/7 negative PR machine that is these forums? Once the average kind of elitist wow player gets an idea ingrained into them, nothing will break that, no matter how strong the counter evidence is. See every idiotic pug strat that's ever existed in this game. So when the actual players tell these people that ret is bad, that it's universally a burden in group play at any level, then people reroll. Is it any wonder that no one outside of tops guilds, (who don't make their logs public) has a clue how to play this spec?

    If no one knows how to play ret, that's our fucking fault for engaging in the circle jerk instead of trying to find the best way to play regardless of how good or bad it is. You're not gonna find a good ret log, because all the kind of good players have already rerolled and the actual good players are not going to share their information. We did it Reddit.
    Last edited by OrcsRLame; 2016-08-28 at 04:38 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    *snip*
    Well there are a few points to make. First of all judgment debuff is horrendous as it makes us vulnerable to target swapping. As I understand it the only stat really doing well for us is haste which in turn means we will scale badly with gear after a point. I don't know why you feel the urge to push for Crusade as much as you do as you will, at some point, diminish the benefit from it. DP would most likely be more beneficial in prolonged AOE situations.

    As for good players, guild I'm in with an alt that a friend transferred to is top 300 ish and they simply don't have any rets going in to legion...theirs re-rolled after beta testing. Obviously this is just anecdotal but still it says something.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    Well there are a few points to make. First of all judgment debuff is horrendous as it makes us vulnerable to target swapping. As I understand it the only stat really doing well for us is haste which in turn means we will scale badly with gear after a point. I don't know why you feel the urge to push for Crusade as much as you do as you will, at some point, diminish the benefit from it. DP would most likely be more beneficial in prolonged AOE situations.

    As for good players, guild I'm in with an alt that a friend transferred to is top 300 ish and they simply don't have any rets going in to legion...theirs re-rolled after beta testing. Obviously this is just anecdotal but still it says something.
    I won't defend the judgment debuff. I hate it and want it to go away, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

    I "push" for Crusade because in my experience no other talent is even remotely close. And you're not going to get diminished values from Crusade. The GCD floor in Legion is 0.75 seconds. Good fucking luck hitting that even during lust. Maybe if you stack the ever living fuck out of haste, then maybe in T21 you'll have issues with haste capping during lust, but if that happens we'll just go Virtue's Blade and shift towards crit.

    It's also worth it to note that a lot of the OP specs from beta have been nerfed. Yes, fire mage is still insane and I don't know how the fuck they haven't been nerfed yet, but assassination rogue took it up the ass, UH DKs got a nerf, and even outlaw got a nerf. Sounds like your friend's ret may have rerolled a tad too early. If you want to be the absolute strongest spec in the game, play fire mage. From everything I've seen they're competitive on single target, their AoE is flat out retarded, (I've seen an 812 fire mage hit 2.3 mil on an ~8 mob pull) and their legendaries just got buffed. Outside of that one ridiculous outlier though, shit is a lot closer than when beta started.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I "push" for Crusade because in my experience no other talent is even remotely close. And you're not going to get diminished values from Crusade. The GCD floor in Legion is 0.75 seconds. Good fucking luck hitting that even during lust. Maybe if you stack the ever living fuck out of haste, then maybe in T21 you'll have issues with haste capping during lust, but if that happens we'll just go Virtue's Blade and shift towards crit.
    I'm not talking about hitting the cap but instead where the benefits are diminished, once your judgment buff lasts about the same as the CD you're starting to lose some benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    but assassination rogue took it up the ass
    Even without the 400% Exsanguinate it's still very strong and has good on-demand burst. It basically went from tarded to OP.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    I'm not talking about hitting the cap but instead where the benefits are diminished, once your judgment buff lasts about the same as the CD you're starting to lose some benefit.



    Even without the 400% Exsanguinate it's still very strong and has good on-demand burst. It basically went from tarded to OP.
    If you go take a look at the rogue forums, everyone is saying that outlaw is now the go-to spec for serious mythic raiding, that it's objectively better on single target and AoE. *shrugs* I'm not a rogue so I haven't put the same effort into researching rogue as I have ret.

    With 0% haste, Crusade already causes judgment to last longer than the CD. So I don't know why that would suddenly be an issue.

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